75 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

Lithuasil wrote...

The next city in the free marches is, from what the map I have tells me, further away from Kirkwall, then Kirkwall is from lothering. And how exactly would they get there, without any money or supplies? Cross the mountains on foot and eat rocks?

Remember Athenril's follow-up quest?  The one where she sends you after her missing shipment?  And you find that poor kid who's running her errands?

If you want to send that kid and his two sisters out of town into farm country, you have to let them swipe the smuggler's shipment and sell it for travel expenses.  They can't just make the trip for free.   So, yeah, you need some kind of stake to cross the Free Marches, even if you're trying to just be a farmhand.

[Lithuasil]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


They don't have to stay in Kirkwall. When you get there the option of going further in to other cities is mentioned. Kirkwall isn't the only option just because Gamlen let's you stay in his slum house while he pisses and moans about you and actually demands rent at one point after he embezzled Leandra's inheritance and spent it all on booze, hookers, and gambling.

It would have been worth the trouble going to another town or crossing those mountains just to avoid the Templars, Qunari, Quentin, and the nutty people in charge of things there.

I haven't come across said mentioning in four playthroughs. That said, of course, if they had the resources necessary, then from the meta-gaming perspective of someone who has finished the game, leaving Kirkwall would've made sense. But none of the characters possess such clairvoyance.
They just have the choice of either taking their chances in Kirkwall, or in a different place, where the situation is the same (for all they can possibly know) only it sucks up resources to get there, and they don't have the however small beneficial factor of being related to someone who has a house, and knows the place.

What you are doing here, is like saying "Dude that Duncan guy was so stupid fighting at ostagar, when Lhogain is going to betray the army anyway". Of course it is, but the character has no possible way of knowing that, when facing the decision.

[WhiteKnyght]

Lithuasil wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


They don't have to stay in Kirkwall. When you get there the option of going further in to other cities is mentioned. Kirkwall isn't the only option just because Gamlen let's you stay in his slum house while he pisses and moans about you and actually demands rent at one point after he embezzled Leandra's inheritance and spent it all on booze, hookers, and gambling.

It would have been worth the trouble going to another town or crossing those mountains just to avoid the Templars, Qunari, Quentin, and the nutty people in charge of things there.

I haven't come across said mentioning in four playthroughs. That said, of course, if they had the resources necessary, then from the meta-gaming perspective of someone who has finished the game, leaving Kirkwall would've made sense. But none of the characters possess such clairvoyance.
They just have the choice of either taking their chances in Kirkwall, or in a different place, where the situation is the same (for all they can possibly know) only it sucks up resources to get there, and they don't have the however small beneficial factor of being related to someone who has a house, and knows the place.

What you are doing here, is like saying "Dude that Duncan guy was so stupid fighting at ostagar, when Lhogain is going to betray the army anyway". Of course it is, but the character has no possible way of knowing that, when facing the decision.

1. It happened right at the beginning when you land at the gallows and are talking to that guard. Something about trying your luck further north or inland or something like that.

2. I wasn't saying they could have known. But they did know about all the Templars. And considering what we know, it would have been the wiser decision.

[PantheraOnca]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

 nutty people in charge of things there.

You say that like the people in charge of anywhere AREN'T nutty.

[Lithuasil]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. It happened right at the beginning when you land at the gallows and are talking to that guard. Something about trying your luck further north or inland or something like that.

And you think a guard in a city overflowing with refugees, that just wants to get rid of you, and tells you to go pester some other town, is a reliable source for a viable plan on what to do?

[Phantom.Brave10]

I'm sure it's been said (too lazy to read), but Ferelden was probably just closer, tbh.

[TexasToast712]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Its a curious thing. Malcolm Hawke is an apostate and he and his wife have potentially two mage children. So why live in Ferelden, a country where they are hunted for it? They were able to flee Kirkwall, so why not just head north instead of south? Tevinter is supposed to be a good place for mages so it would make more sense to settle there.

Maybe because Malcom was really really good at hiding his abilities? Hence why your sister and yourself (if a mage) are fully grown apostates still living at home.

[Augustei]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Its a curious thing. Malcolm Hawke is an apostate and he and his wife have potentially two mage children. So why live in Ferelden, a country where they are hunted for it? They were able to flee Kirkwall, so why not just head north instead of south? Tevinter is supposed to be a good place for mages so it would make more sense to settle there.

Cause Tevinter hates foreign mages and they would have been treated badly most likely

[Encarmine]

hey cool topic,
Random question, are Grey Wardens active in the Tevinter Imperium?
Another random question, How did the Tevinter Imperium loose control of places like Kirkwall and Feralden Orlais etc?
Cheers

[nicolom]

Encarmine wrote...

hey cool topic,
Random question, are Grey Wardens active in the Tevinter Imperium?
Another random question, How did the Tevinter Imperium loose control of places like Kirkwall and Feralden Orlais etc?
Cheers

The Blight happened. The rise of the very first Archdemon severely weakend Tevinter and its ability to rule an empire spanning all of Thedas. Not long after the end of the first Blight the religious uprising with Andraste at the vanguard followed. The weakend Imperium was unable to beat back the southern barbarians. From there on, it was a slow decline.

As far as I know, ofcourse. Brother Genetivi can give you more detailed explainations in-game via the relevant codex pages, I'm sure.

[WhiteKnyght]

nicolom wrote...

Encarmine wrote...

hey cool topic,
Random question, are Grey Wardens active in the Tevinter Imperium?
Another random question, How did the Tevinter Imperium loose control of places like Kirkwall and Feralden Orlais etc?
Cheers

The Blight happened. The rise of the very first Archdemon severely weakend Tevinter and its ability to rule an empire spanning all of Thedas. Not long after the end of the first Blight the religious uprising with Andraste at the vanguard followed. The weakend Imperium was unable to beat back the southern barbarians. From there on, it was a slow decline.

As far as I know, ofcourse. Brother Genetivi can give you more detailed explainations in-game via the relevant codex pages, I'm sure.

Sounds like Andraste capitalized on the circumstances.

My theory.

Andraste was a dreamer, a mage who could enter the Fade and control it and the world from it like Feynriel. She wanted the people to be free of the Imperium and knows a righteous cause and blame can motivate people.

So Andraste uses her special powers to make people believe she is the Maker's chosen bride. And uses that to place blame on the Magisters for the Blight and write the Chant of Light. Which gives her the power she needs to start her rebellion.  And she may or may not have used blood magic herself to convert people through her "songs"

So Andraste was likely just a fraud who sacrificed her fellow mages for her own goals.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Mages that can't compete with the big fish in Tevinter get trampled underfoot. It may not have the oppression of the Templars, but Tevinter is unpleasant in other ways, as well.

Given that Bethany has a healthy dislike of blood magic, Malcolm probably did, as well. So he would have avoided Tevinter on principle.

[JamesX]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Its a curious thing. Malcolm Hawke is an apostate and he and his wife have potentially two mage children. So why live in Ferelden, a country where they are hunted for it? They were able to flee Kirkwall, so why not just head north instead of south? Tevinter is supposed to be a good place for mages so it would make more sense to settle there.

Tavinter is a horrible place to live.  Just read the letter Fenriel sent you.

cglasgow wrote...

If you want to send that kid and his two sisters out of town into farm country, you have to let them swipe the smuggler's shipment and sell it for travel expenses.  They can't just make the trip for free.   So, yeah, you need some kind of stake to cross the Free Marches, even if you're trying to just be a farmhand.

That is just inconsistant writing.  The people in the Shop for Feralden Refugees keep mentiong how he went to 30 farm holds and not a single one is hiring Feraldenians.  

Modifié par JamesX, 21 mars 2011 - 09:04 .

[TexasToast712]

cglasgow wrote...
 She'd be either Morrigan 2.0,

What is that supposed to mean? Morrigan isnt a blood mage.

[TexasToast712]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
So Andraste was likely just a fraud who sacrificed her fellow mages for her own goals.

Origins pretty much confirms that the Maker is real. The Urn of Sacred ashes and the Gauntlet Guardian. If Andraste was just some lying woman then why are her ashes able to heal any illness?

[WhiteKnyght]

TexasToast712 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
So Andraste was likely just a fraud who sacrificed her fellow mages for her own goals.

Origins pretty much confirms that the Maker is real. The Urn of Sacred ashes and the Gauntlet Guardian. If Andraste was just some lying woman then why are her ashes able to heal any illness?

Take Oghren with you next time you play through. he senses a very large concentration of Lyrium in the mountain and explains that exposure could have altered the ashes. Theres also something in the game IIRC that says the healing power could be an ancient form of magic itself.

[cglasgow]

JamesX wrote...

That is just inconsistant writing.  The people in the Shop for Feralden Refugees keep mentiong how he went to 30 farm holds and not a single one is hiring Feraldenians.

Yeah, but those Fereldans didn't have cash to buy their way in with.   It's just another version of like how you got onto Bartrand's expedition.

Which brings us right back to the original question: 'Why the hell not just ditch Kirkwall before act 1?'    Answer: 'Because without any gold for a stake, they couldn't hope to buy their way into anywhere else, either.'

Modifié par cglasgow, 21 mars 2011 - 11:09 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

cglasgow wrote...

As for 'mages thrive in Tevinter'... yes, they 'thrive' so much that Fenris' sister thought that living as a free mage with no magister sponsorship was a worse deal than slavery.   And then sold out her own brother for a chance to finally get a magister's sponsorship as his apprentice.

No, really, Tevinter's a hellhole.  It's a great deal if you're one of the evil bastards on top; it sucks for everyone else, even lesser mages.

There's more than one way to read that, and I read it completely differently. She's saying that poverty and struggling for a livelihood is worse than slavery. This, by the way, was a historical fact for much of the ancient world: better to be slave to a wealthy person than to be on your own in a cruel, harsh, world. I doubt life in an alienage anywhere else is much better, to be honest.

It must be noted, though, that the codex entry on the Imperial Chantry notes that the populace was THRILLED with the notion that the magocracy would be resuming power in the 7th Age.

Hellhole? Depends on who you are. The perspective of a bitter, very angry ex-slave is suspect at best. Remember that elven slaver in DA:O? She seemed quite happy to be Tevinter.

[cglasgow]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Hellhole? Depends on who you are. The perspective of a bitter, very angry ex-slave is suspect at best. Remember that elven slaver in DA:O? She seemed quite happy to be Tevinter.

Of course she was.  She had the whip.

Generally speaking, when trying to find out how much a place really sucks or not, ask the people on the bottom.  Because all **** rolls downhill, and they're the people the **** finally lands on.   The higher-ups in any system, good or bad, generally manage to take care of themselves one way or another; its the worms-eye view that lets you know if things are OK, bad, or worse.

Or: Would you rather be a Fereldan peasant or a Tevinter slave?  

Modifié par cglasgow, 21 mars 2011 - 11:19 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

I'll be certain to ask the Tabris family what they think about Ferelden, then.

The people at the bottom will always be unhappy. They're at the bottom. Who's happy to be there, aside from a philosopher or ascetic?

edit: easy. Tevinter slave. Arbitrary treatment at the hands of one of the most powerful people in the world, or arbitrary treatment at the hands of some smelly doglord with some sort of theoretical respect for smallholders?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 21 mars 2011 - 11:22 .

[Lithuasil]

cglasgow wrote...

Or: Would you rather be a Fereldan peasant or a Tevinter slave?  

From what we know, depending on your master, being a Tevinter slave can be vastly preferable to being a medieval peasant. (Just as being a circle mage is preferrable to like 90% of the situations you can be born into, in a world like this)

[cglasgow]

I'll be certain to ask the Tabris family what they think about Ferelden, then.

Do that, and then ask Fenris what he thought about Tevinter. And compare the two.

The people at the bottom will always be unhappy.

Yeah, but unhappy about what?

For a real-world example, compare the lifestyle of someone at the poverty-line in North America. That guy's probably pretty bummed about his crappy flop, cheap food, and lack of employment opportunities, yes?  Since I'm personally only a short step above that dude, I'm pretty sure he is.

Now skip over to Africa and look at what the poor people there are living in, what with not even having the ability to find clean water that doesn't have human waste in it, or the rape gangs, the genocide, the famines, etc, etc. They would consider your first 'poverty-line' guy to be living in Paradise... by their standards.

And this is how I know that I'd rather live in North America than, oh, Rwanda.  I'm sure whoever is warlord of Rwanda this week has a much more lavish lifestyle than I do, and is much happier with his lifestyle than he'd be with mine... but that cuts no ice; of course he's looking out for himself, he's on the top of the pile.

Or to loop things back to Dragon Age, there's Sigrun's comment:

"Oh no, I've seen an alienage.  It actually looked rather nice."

What does it take to make the Highever Alienage look 'nice'?  Answer: when you grew up in Orzammar Dust Town.

Modifié par cglasgow, 21 mars 2011 - 11:28 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yes, but we know what the typical experience is for someone in the Denerim alienage or Orzammar's dust town. We don't know the experience of the typical Tevinter slave--just Fenris, who is absolutely exceptional to the point that more than one magister--and remember, magisters rank above first enchanters--devotes their personal attention to recovering him.

We know from Fenris's sister that he had the ability to compete to improve his lot. We know from her that being a slave actually meant a pleasant childhood, and that she preferred that relatively leisured life to living in squalor on the outside world.

Indeed, we know that Roman slaves were infinitely better off than medieval free peasants, if we want to jump to real life examples. The Tevinter Imperium is not Rwanda; even the Chantry admits Minrathous is still the greatest city in Thedas.

[cglasgow]

I'll grant you the point about the Romans, but I'll still be vastly surprised if the Tevinter Imperium is actually the most enlightened civilization on Thedas.

[Emperor Iaius I]

No, they're definitely the "evil" version of the Roman Empire. When explaining blood magic and the Imperium to a friend, I said "pretend that everything the early Church said about pagans, blood sacrificess, and demons was all true--there you have blood magic and the Tevinter Imperium." There's no question that the Imperium is ruthless. But I think it has to have some sort of internal support outside of pure Darwinism for people to have heralded the return of the magocracy, or the mages would have been hounded out of existence in the centuries that the Chantry actually held real power.

It's probably not the most enlightened, and probably no longer the most prosperous due to the qunari war (Orlais seems to be the wealthiest), but there's a possibility it's still the most advanced. It has, after all, succesfully withstood war with all of the rest of Thedas and several Blights.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 21 mars 2011 - 11:48 .