15 réponses à ce sujet

[Tomomi]

First, no trolling, no bashing, only constructive input or criticism please! 

And yes, we all know how bad and/or broken the nightmare mode can be.  I am trying to survive it, as a challenge.  I brought 99 Maker's Sigh out Sundermount (at beginning of Act 2), at level 15, to constantly respec, even in the mist of battle, to make some tests.  Test how much combo damage can do and how effective they are in reality vs. on paper.  Test what spec and setup would allow me to comfortably survive this nightmare mode that so many bragged about soloing it.  This is mainly tested on fighting groups of mobs, not boss fight.

Please keep in mind a lot of my tests here I do it for the sake of testing, so please don't call me "stupid" or "noob" when I tried to put all points into Magic to test max damage, or trying to solo 2 mobs without asking companions to help.
 
Stun-lock: I give Aveline "Indomitable" and my mage "Unshakable", both give 100% stun/knock resist.  I thought I was safe, but there is still this "Push-back" we can't resist.  A low HP normal skeleton (with small HP bar) pops next to my mage and hits her once, push back, I tried to cast a Heal (on Aveline), push back again, I tried to use Glyph of Paralysis, push back more.  Finally I could cast Mindblast.  But if there are 2 skeletons, Mindblast would be impossible too.  My only choice would only be to run non-stop, because if I stop, I would get locked down by these 2 skeletons.  Even with 100% knock/stun resist, I get locked into "push-back", which is a lesser version of the chain knock-back like before, but nevertheless a lock.  With much higher fortitude, Aveline seems to have this happen less to her, but with 5 mobs on her, this will happen too.

Command queue reset! When getting into a stun-lock like above (say with 2 mobs), I would have to constantly spam Mindblast or run key (either W or click a spot on the ground) to have any hope of getting out.  With high damage from even normal mobs and low mage HP, I could only spam the keys and pray that I would get away with this.

High resist rate: Even just a bunch of skeletons, I tried to lure them together then use Mindblast, Glyph of Paralysis/Repulsion, Cone of Cold, Horror, and Sleep.  Method: either use Pull of the Abyss, or Taunt, or both. The rest result is about 30-50% (Turn on "Minor Combat Details" see the "Resisted" on their heads), with some spells are better than others.  I have all 54 Magic points at lvl 15 (again, just for the sake of testing).  So my chance of CC is 70% at best.

High HP: With the use of Combo, I was able to 1 shot a High HP Skeleton (Long HP bar on head).  That is Shield Bash (to Stagger) and Chain Lightning from Merrill (38 Magic, level 15). Using that on golem shows a number of 1500ish on top and takes off about 15% of his HP.  Using it on Rage Demon with similar 15%. Chain Lightning does 600% on Staggered target.  

Putting it all together: Testing in "Abadoned Thaig, with little room to run".
- It's near impossible for Aveline to keep all mobs on her, considering the amount of Rage demon and Revenant popping up midfight, she was already in this "push back" lock with 5 mobs on her.
- Using Fist of the Maker (54 Magic) gives the whole group some 150ish damage on their head, mayhap taking 5-10% of their total HP and make them very angry.
- 2 melee skeletons ran to my healer, Aveline is in Push back lock and needs heal badly. Healer either has a choice to cast Heal, get interrupted, get into a deadly Push-back lock (even with Unshakable), or to run and risk getting Aveline killed.
- Other companions maybe can help with CC, but eventually they also get into a push-back lock. 

Comments:  With high resist rate, and spells don't exactly have 1 second cool down, couple with very high HP, I don't think the "Best defense is offense" strategy would work out.  Everyone will die out before killing everything.  And for a mage to survive Nightmare, mobs need to have no chance to get on the mage or risk getting into stun lock.

Now visit this thread:  http://social.biowar...44298/1#6676558

Sabresandiego showed that he could fight as a warrior on Nightmare mode, with almost no companion management on most fight, no pause, and no combo.  Check out his video on Danzig fight, he was on his warrior at all time.  This is Act 1, so there would be little customization we can do to drastically make a complex godly spec. I also have his weapon.  For the sake of testing, I loaded an old save, in there, I put Fenris on the job, gave him near max Strength (higher than what Sabresandiego had on his video) for higher Fortitude and damage output.  For the sake of testing again, I put 2 healers (Anders and myself) with best healing spec (Heal, Group heal, Arcane Wall, Barrier) to simulate a high HP for Fenris. I spec Fenris very similar to Sabresandieo.  I also paused a lot to micro manage.  Sabresandiego doesn't even pause, he may get healed from one healer and a potion, I have much higher strength.  No matter what, the battle should only come out much better than the video, right?  But I was wrong.  Fenris did not hit nearly as hard as the video (even with higher Strength), and I was unable to toss around enemies and 2 shot them, more like 5 shots.  And even with heavy support from 2 healers, Fenris was dying very fast, and also got into a couple stun lock in which I had to intervene to get him out.  Danzig took forever to die (again, same weapon, best possible ring/amulet I can find, I get free money).

There are people who even claimed they solo Nightmare as a mage.  So I am fresh out of ideas.  First, it is impossible to get around the stunlock, not even for Aveline (well, push lock to be more accurate).  And my damage was nothing close to what people say, even if I add combo into the equation.  In the Abandoned Thaig, there is only a medium size room and a tiny corridor to kite, with a Rage Demon, Revenant, Rock golem, 2-3 skeleton archers and 2-3 skeleton melee.  How would a mage solo that on Nightmare?  Even with Maker's Sigh bug and have all possible spells.

Am I playing a different Nightmare mode than these people, or maybe I just missed something?  In DA:O I was truly playing in Nightmare Plus mode (a downloaded mod to make Nightmare harder), with no godly gear, very good setup/spec, and a lot of micro managing.  Even then, it was really hard to solo with mage, not possible, but hard (unless Arcane Warrior, then it would be easier). But Arcane warrior also had problems fighting 2-3 templars who constantly dispel all sustainable spells of Arcane warrior (stripped off all sustained armor and aura to regain HP).

Edit: typo

Modifié par Tomomi, 20 mars 2011 - 10:41 .

[naughty99]

I was having a difficult time with Avelline on Nightmare and watched Sabresandiego's tutorials and I realized Fenris would make a better tank for me. 

I think the main problem I had is that I was using Shield Defense all the time and it prevents closing attacks, so Avelline doesn't get around very quickly. Also if I understand correctly, your defense score doesn't reduce damage from any "activated abilities" like backstabs, boss attacks, etc. Better to go with high armor, high constitution and Elemental Aegis. Avelline wasn't getting stunlocked for me, but she was really slow and didn't do too much damage.

Meanwhile Fenris is really fast and he has some upgrades that make him faster every time he kills an enemy, this makes him better at moving around the battlefield to protect your squishies.  

With really high strength, Fenris has no problem with knockbacks, even up to the end of Act 2 without using any knockback immunity items. Occasionaly with a dragon or Act Boss, he gets stunned, but he quickly recovers, never gets stun locked and he has high constitution + he has a 2H weapon with +22% healing buff.

My ideal party composition on Nightmare is

2H Warrior tank (Fenris)
DW + Archery rogue (Hawke in my case, if you are playing a mage, I would consider going with Varric, since Isabela is bugged and she cannot use Assassinate anyways)
2 mages (Anders and Merrill in my case) that can both cast upgraded ccc versions of

• Chain Lightning, ideally with Galvinism if possible
• Petrify,
• Winter's Grasp
• Stonefist or Spirit Bolt

and at least one the mages needs to be able to

• revive dead party members,
• heal party members (ideally group heal)
• cast paralyzing spells (for example, Paralyzing Prison, Glyph of Paralysis, Wounds of the Past, Coma or some Hawke blood mage spells),
• cast debufs like Hex of Torment
• helps reduce mana potion consumption if at least one mage is a blood mage

I cannot stress how many times having both mages able to cast BRITTLE spells and Chain Lightning on STAGGERED enemies saved my ass with huge mobs and high health elites. I put 20+ constitution points into Anders and I'm considering put more into Merril for improved blood magic and survivability.

I saved up for the Ring of Two Wishes for knockback immunity in Act 2. As soon as I get the Carta of the Left hand (knockback immunity dagger), I will have one of my mages use the knockback ring. 

Modifié par naughty99, 21 mars 2011 - 12:54 .

[Waltzingbear]

You're expecting something to work in a specific way but then you get frustrated when you find your mage surrounded by mobs and say "hey this isn't right! how did this happen? I followed the video but still got different results" when the fact is that Sabre must have done Something differently. This isn't healthy to the learning process and feels like you're trying to prove that you're cheated and this stain-remover isn't working as the commercial showed.

I had the same problem when I first started playing on Nightmare with a mage.
I could go through the beginning of the game alright but there were encounters that I just couldn't possibly imagine how I can pass no matter how many times I tried. This totally pissed me off, I wanted to eat my fist and break the monitor. So I just left it. I started a new dw rogue with a new strategy and a new mind-set. And now, I'm pretty much acing it.
I'm not saying you should start a new character or start over. Just take a break and try to look at things differently instead of getting infuriated. The game's rules are what they are and it is passable for a fact (that's half the fun of high difficulty)

Knocking your head into the wall is a great way to crack it. But sometimes you just need to find a new angle to hit it on.

[Tomomi]

Ah, thanks for giving me something to read.

First, the friendship bug with Isabelle and Sebastian can be worked around with this mod:
http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=2299
It just took away your shared buff, or, if you wish, can give you the Rivalry buff instead. As with any mod, use it at your own risk (especially for those new to installing mods).

Well, unlike most of the players, I really have no problem being the healer. So if I take the healer role, so it would almost nullify my handicap of starting as a mage, from using your strategy. Although, as you said, I wouldn't have a rogue to use Assassinate.

Strangely, I don't have problem as much with boss as with mobs encounter. It's just the mobs that I can't contain and therefore demolish my rank. I guess let me go suit up Fenris and give this a try, sitting out Merril.

[Tomomi]

Waltzingbear wrote...

You're expecting something to work in a specific way but then you get frustrated when you find your mage surrounded by mobs and say "hey this isn't right! how did this happen? I followed the video but still got different results" when the fact is that Sabre must have done Something differently. This isn't healthy to the learning process and feels like you're trying to prove that you're cheated and this stain-remover isn't working as the commercial showed.

I had the same problem when I first started playing on Nightmare with a mage.
I could go through the beginning of the game alright but there were encounters that I just couldn't possibly imagine how I can pass no matter how many times I tried. This totally pissed me off, I wanted to eat my fist and break the monitor. So I just left it. I started a new dw rogue with a new strategy and a new mind-set. And now, I'm pretty much acing it.
I'm not saying you should start a new character or start over. Just take a break and try to look at things differently instead of getting infuriated. The game's rules are what they are and it is passable for a fact (that's half the fun of high difficulty)

Knocking your head into the wall is a great way to crack it. But sometimes you just need to find a new angle to hit it on.

No, I am not biting my fingers.  This game is quite calm to me.  I spend more time in Pause mode assessing situations than anything.  And this is exactly what I am doing: reading up people's strategy and try to make sense of them.  You see, I know about the Combo, I know about pretty much all mage spells (at least the important ones).  I know somewhat about warrior, but the only rogue I know is Varric.  He is by far the only companion that is consistently carrying his weight, even with just regular attack.  By giving him 40+ dex at level 15, he is just too powerful.  Sadly, he attracts too much attentions and die a lot.

So right now I just want to learn what people do, and replay it in my own game so I can learn about it more than just reading.  People always brag about how well they play, they use this skill, that spell, but never really say how they put them all together under one big picture.  It is like some people kept bragging Ancient Rock Wraith in Act 1 Deep Road was so easy, while others screamed out loud about the insanity of the fight.  But not many, if any, point out to the frustrating crowd that you should not even bother to tank the boss, and so on and on. Now, it is my turn to figure out how this goes.  More testing for me.

[Waltzingbear]

Sorry if all you wanted was a bit of enlightenments on the nuts and
bolts of the game. I really like figuring it all out myself so I must
have been projecting.

I’ll try to give you a post with more juicy meat to bite on this time.


First of all; you gave Sabre’s Danzig video as a reference point. I want
you to watch it again and keep closely to the bottom left corner and
see what kind of abilities he and his companions use and when they use
potions and see if you really did what he did in there. You might not
see it but the companions use a lot of CC and AOE abilities. At the
first five seconds he didn’t use one basic attack (Cleave- Scythe-
Mighty Blow- Whirlwind). Also companions who are set to Ranged will
dodge attacks and move away from danger. There are many small things
that you might have missed and which led to different outcomes.


Stun-lock: There’s a distinction between Knock-back and
knock-down. There’s a talent that gives Knockback immunity in the
Defender tree. I keep an almost equal amount of Strength and
Constitution on Aveline and it seems to be enough to keep her on her
feet. Are you investing in cunning? I wouldn’t advise it. Five mobs at
once are too much for a tank to handle, this isn’t WoW.


Command queue reset: You can cancel a queued action by clicking
on the ground. Moving away is faster than Mindblast. Set your ranged to
Ranged and they’ll dodge attacks by their own.


On a side note use stunning abilities like Mindblast wisely. It resets the aggro so try not to use that on taunted enemies.

It’s useless trying to control each enemy on the map. It’s a different
world from DOA, CC abilities last much shorter and you can get overrun
fairly quickly with waves of mobs. Sometimes it’s just best to burn them
down quickly and give your party members more constitution/defensive
abilities.


Hope this helps. Yell if you need anything else.

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 21 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[Tomomi]

Well, I just toughed it out with my last battle against Rock Golem, Rage Demon, and Reverend.

Here is what I got:

- Mindblast resist x 10 on both my mage and Merril (both with 40ish Magic). Both with upraded Mindblast, none of the above actually stun anyone.

- Rock golem chases down Merril like kids on playground. Aveline constantly hitting, Taunt x3, Bravery on, and Merril constantly use Mindblast as it is up. Rock Golem chases Merril as if she stole a million dollars from him, never give up.

- On the only occasion Mindblast worked that caused Rage Demon to "stunned" on his head. He immediately swung at and killed Varric less than a second "stunned" was shown on his head.

- I landed 2 Shield bash and Stagger on Revenant and Chain Lightning him. The other 2 mobs continuing raining down on my poor people.

- Pull of the abyss "resisted", Telekinetic Burst "resisted", Crushing Prison "resisted" ... this is coming off a 45 magic of a level 15 (considerably high).

Varric died about 5 times. Aveline twice. Somehow, Dog became a much better tank than Aveline, he held up Reverent so my healer (the sole survivor) kited long enough to regain mana and Revival. Yes there is a distinction between Knock back and down down, but they still achieve the same thing. I watched as Varric got hit by Rage Demon, he groaned, swung his hands all over, walked 3 steps back, and walked right back into the Rage Demon to receive another "knock back". The whole time I was spamming for him to run back .... no dice. Same with my character who has 100% resist against Stun and Knock Down, .... move 3 steps back, groan in agony, move forward again .... that is the whole sequence in which I had lost complete control of that character.
...

You read me wrong, I wasn't complaining why I could not cancel queue. In the contrary, I wanted it NOT to cancel queue. Like this, you order Varric to run across the room, there, that spot. If he gets hit midway, he will just .... stand there and fight to the death. And I get to watch his knock-back animation over and over again.

And no, don't even mention "Ranged". It was useful in DA:O but in DA2 I have no idea why it is even there. My mage, Merril, and Varric are all on "Ranged" but there was never an incident they move away from the mobs, whatsoever. And worse, if there is a pole blocking, Varric would love to run to the pole, turn the corner and be FACE to FACE with the Rock Golem and stood there right next to Aveline to take all his AE damage.

Recap: "Ranged" is useless. Knock-back chain is ridiculous, especially with command queue constantly reset on me (read: I want it not to reset). CC was resisted about 80% on my last fight. Now, in theory, Aveline could gather all the mobs, Shield Bash to stagger them, chain lightning x2 (from 2 mages) and it's over? Reality, shield bash got resisted 3-4 times. The whole fight of 30 mins I could only get 2 combo off that can kill off the Reverent (which is known to be the weakest among the 3).

This is absolutely aggravating.  Sorry I am just very upset when I got a ton of messages teaching me: "Aveline grab mobs, Shield Bash, Chain lightning, clean up the survivors, done in 10 seconds".  It really does not help when they resist 70-80% of all that.  Ah anyway, you were absolutely right, this game is not like other RPG, CC was so short (that Stun on Rage Demon lasted 0.5 seconds).  The whole time I wanted to burst 1 thing down, it just didn't work out.  I was not intending to show off about how long I wanted to drag the fight out.  I wanted to end this as soon as I could like what others say. 

Modifié par Tomomi, 21 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[naughty99]

Petrify will work on all those enemies. With the Revenant he might not become BRITTLE the first time, but if you cast it a couple times he will (this is why it's helpful to have Anders + Merril supporting your Rogue Hawke).

As soon as he does, put Hex of Torment, Mark of Death on him and you can easily one-shot him or cut his health to almost nothing with your Rogue (if you have assassinate + anihilate).

With 2 mages you can often keep the toughest enemies immobilized for a while with multiple spells.

Also keep everyone on hold mode and keep retreating everyone back to distant chokepoints as soon as Avelline encounters any enemies.

Modifié par naughty99, 21 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[Sabresandiego]

One thing you have to remember about the Danzig video and Act 1: Hawke can wear Blood Dragon Armor and weild Haydor's Razor. Both items are overpowered for Act 1 and Fenris cannot match them.

[naughty99]

I was able to equip Fenris with Hayden's Razor.

Modifié par naughty99, 21 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[Tomomi]

If you still have any saved game at the beginning of Act 2, go to Sundermount, far off there is an entrance for the Abandoned Thaig. That's my battle ground for today. There is a hall way with flame shooting out, the room is to the left with 1 rock golem guarding the door. My strat would be to lure them in the hallway having Aveline holding them off while 3 ranged dps do their work.

I guess I am going to invest in Petrify this time. I guess Varric will be the combo finisher. Yeah, mages would do very well to CC with multiple spells. My exception is 80% of those spells don't stick.

I am going to do this fight again with Fenris.

[Tomomi]

Sabresandiego wrote...

One thing you have to remember about the Danzig video and Act 1: Hawke can wear Blood Dragon Armor and weild Haydor's Razor. Both items are overpowered for Act 1 and Fenris cannot match them.

Fenris uses Haydor's Razor too.  I think I have something even better in Act 2 now.  Agreed on the Blood Armor.  

[Waltzingbear]

Are you using both the Chain Lightning at the same time? CCC removes the initial effect so the first will eat the STAGGER and the second will deal normal damage.

Golems are easy to kite so if you can pause-order-move someone it could take care of that. Rage Demons have a semi assassinate ability so it might be best to take it first.

[Trapslick]

first off, fenris is really a bad character until act 3, he's either squishy or just has low damage (compared to the amazing ccc abilities of a sword and board).

you're not going to brittle many things in nightmare (from my experiance anyway) and the things you can brittle, aren't really worth it. so the ability to get ccc from stagger or disorient are much better since they are both easy to achieve.

Stun lock: simple enough answer.. don't get hit, don't be squishy. there are ways to make every type of build less squishy, you may have to sacrafice some damage, but it will be worth being able to save them in the end. if you do get hit, try to have another character save them via stun, knockback or threat manipulation

Command queue reset: this is truely annoying, but its something that micro managing can fix.. no way around that

High resist rate: in nightmare, high damage is the key to crowd control... hate to be that guy, but kill em quick and they won't be able to attack you anymore

High HP: this is why i love archer hawk... from accross the room, i can take out almost any non boss creature at least 80% of the way by marking him and assassinate skill.

putting it all together:
-aveline is hard to get used to to, but she is amazing when you do. keys: try not to use shield defense, her mobility is slaughtered. try to use chainlightning as a pretaunt tactic as well, it works wonders (allowing them to obtain damage creates threat, and then you can steal it away with taunt). the most useful way to generate threat is to have aveline be the first one people see and have all your companions focus on one target at a time, then even if he slips through, its 3 against 1.
-outside of the fortitude bonus... the force mage sucks... sad but true
-avoid being touched... the push back lock is a b**** and a half... its best to figure out how the aggro system works and not allow your companions to be hit, tough, but its the only way to beat nightmare.

oh, and this is your experiance, so what if you cheat to experiment around a bit (or cheat period), anyone who flames cheating on a single player game is retarded (as long as your not claiming to be legit... then your just making an a** of yourself)

Modifié par Trapslick, 21 mars 2011 - 05:40 .

[naughty99]

Trapslick wrote...


you're not going to brittle many things in nightmare (from my experiance anyway) and the things you can brittle, aren't really worth it.

After about the 3rd or 4th time casting Petrify I was able to make the mature dragon on Sundermount BRITTLE in Act 2 in Nightmare. I was able to knock out about 80% of his health in one blow with Assassinate + Mark of Death + Hex of torment + Elemental Weapons

Modifié par naughty99, 21 mars 2011 - 06:02 .

[Tomomi]

I am revisiting those 3 Revenant, Rage Demon, and Stone Golem.

Poor Fenris getting pounded so hard. It is fun to see a bunch of "Immune!" text popping up on those mobs. It's hard not to be squishy.  In fact, define "squishy".  I can't max strength on my mage, that is ridiculous.  At 45 Strength, Fenris get tossed around like a fish. None of these 3 mobs would be knocked back, at all. This time around, both of my Stagger-Chain Lightning does ... 325 damage. Seriously, I would LOVE to burst 1 guy down quickly, but still not possible. I don't see all these crazy 2000-3000 damage combo people have been talking about on Nightmare.  All I get is 3 combo of 450ish each, barely touched Revenant for 20% HP.

I am very close to just killallhostiles.

P/S: Someone said it, Petrify has very high chance of Brittle. And Tempest really does not have friendly fire. Kinda odd, but I will take it.

Edit: Did someone mention "ranged"?  It's once again Worthless.  None of my 3 ranged persons bother to move, at all.

The good news though: I took Fenris on some other fights, the part where the slavers stopped Fenris.  It is indeed OP.  Aveline stand on the other side of the mobs and still get hit by Fenris' AE and ... burst into pieces ... ewww

Modifié par Tomomi, 21 mars 2011 - 08:11 .