84 réponses à ce sujet

[Zweijsters]

 First of all let me say that I love this game, I really do. But I'm on my second playthrough now and being 'evil' in this game is REALLY unrewarding. You lock out quests of greater value for instance, the smuggling one. I purged the mages tower and later I went to Orzammar, but now Godwin is nowhere to be found in the mages tower. This is the only way to make a decent amount of money, enough to buy more than one good item from the vendors in-game. Which is another point, making money is a pain. Since content ceizes to exist and random encounters do aswell, your influx of cashiesh ends aswell.

As for being a jackass to random people you meet, you instantly lock out quests or just prolong the inevitable. If you tell someone to bugger off, ofcourse they won't tell you their deepest secrets and ask you to help them, but there should be some sort of replacement for those quests.. I mean what's the point in taking offensive chat options if they will cancel out quests, thus cancelling out xp, and maybe even nice quest rewards. 

I had to redo the whole of redcliff because I wanted to become a blood mage. First time through I set free Jowan, and had already destroyed the mages. I mean, I love the interconnectiveness of the whole storyline, but come on... I had wasted all my options to enter the fade to be able to get the bloodmage specialization. 

All in all, being evil is not rewarding at all, the game forces you to be a do-gooder who is interested in helping anything and everyone, for the sake of experience and money. If you don't give a rats ass about all these silly people and their problems, you will end up a poor, underpowered warden with exactly 0 interesting specializations.

[immeyourenot]

Apparantly you haven't been using enough Intimidate dialogue options. Not only can they make you a very large amount of money, they're also often delightfully evil.



Also there are plenty options for accepting quests from people without being nice about you, instead of saying "go away, I don't want your quest" which obviously gets you nowhere, start saying "lets start talking rewards".

[Archfiend]

kill the dwarf and take his gold. hes got like 20 on him, easier than running to the tower

but yes i agree to an extent, but being evil dosent have to mean you dont do quests. people offer me money so ill help them. you can still become a bloodmage even after destroying the circle, jowen is still there and he tells you there is another way but someone has to die.

[Zweijsters]

Being a **** for money doesn't equal being evil from my point of view. And no I haven't been using intimidate on this char for that reason, I wan't mindless killing to be rewarding aswell hehe.

As for killing the dwarf, if you persuade right you can make 70g profit of that quest.. 
plus you can only kill him by saying 'I'm turning you in'  which makes you a goodie again.

Modifié par Zweijsters, 17 novembre 2009 - 02:52 .

[Nhani]

It depends on your definition of evil and what exactly you're trying to do, I'd say - especially since it's fairly evident BioWare has tried to make things somewhat morally ambigous. Killing the Circle, for example, I wouldn't call evil so much as succumbing to Templar Fears - oh sure, you could probably spend all your way to the purging fire laughing with evil glee, but that's weight you add to it - realistically, the choice you make isn't Good versus Evil but Mages versus Templar. I'm sure both could be used to both ends.

Being an arse to all you meet, again, isn't what I'd call evil so much as just being a plain anti-social git. As I recall, most times you can offer to help, there seem to be a "well, what's in it for me?" option where you help solely for the reward rather than the helping itself.

Of course, I generally tend to play the sort of character that will eventually cause puppies and butterflies to randomly appear around them by sheer virtue of their niceness because I tend to feel somewhat guilty otherwise, but I saw what felt like plenty of opportunities to be a self-serving bastard who exploit everyone for his or her own gain.

If you mean evil as in "set everyone you meet on fire and cackle madly" on the other hand, then yes, I'd imagine that'd be somewhat unrewarding

Modifié par Nhani, 17 novembre 2009 - 02:54 .

[javierabegazo]

No it's absolutely the other way around. You make a lot more money extorting people you've helped and intimidating them to give you an extra reward than simply being nice and hoping they'll be generous. Be nice doesn't pay off.



However, your problem is that you're too mean in the beginning, Get their trust, then there are so many options to get gold and intimidate people.

Luckily, I found this money glitch that doesn't hurt your game save file so I'm not forced to be a jerk just to be able to buy a few nice things

[Zweijsters]

It is *sad face*



Why do people always try to take away my flaming toys..



Anywho, a nice solution could possible be more drops from the people you set on fire. I mean if you kill wynne, shouldn't she have some nice magical rarities.. in stead of nothing

[immeyourenot]

From the discussion it seems we can draw a couple of basic important conclusions.



Being Evil IS very rewarding.

Being Chaotic Evil is not very rewarding.



That's pretty much how it should be I'd say. For what reason would anyone ever gain a whole lot from being Chaotic evil? If you aren't going to be extorting money from people because you're Chaotic evil and just like mindless slaughter then what does money even matter? Someone who manipulates people into getting as much money as possible SHOULD have more money than a goody-two-shoes who refuses rewards or someone who randomly kills anything.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Just like in real life, being excessively "good" or excessively "bad" is unpragmatic and not prudent.

[marshalleck]

This always happens in games where you can be good or evil. I think it's because most players choose to follow the default 'good' route, so that gets the most developer attention.

[Maria Caliban]

immeyourenot wrote...

Being Evil IS very rewarding.
Being Chaotic [stupid] is not very rewarding.

Fixed.

[_____o_O___]

In the tower godwin is in the closet... Steal from Lothering merchant that argues with chantry woman and get a nice crossbow. Nice reward for being "evil".

[Madlax27]

_____o_O___ wrote...

In the tower godwin is in the closet... Steal from Lothering merchant that argues with chantry woman and get a nice crossbow. Nice reward for being "evil".

If anything stealing from the Lothering merchant is giving that merchant what he deserves since he is extorting the refugees.  I would hardly call that being "evil"

[javierabegazo]

My 2nd playthrough I accepted his offer to drive away the woman in exchange for one gold piece and discount and I just felt so morally dirty. but i needed the money like an addict needs a fix....after finding that money glitch I can finally be the paragon i've been wanting to be

Modifié par javierabegazo, 17 novembre 2009 - 03:30 .

[Arcadionn]

So you tell someone to ****** off and expect to get the same xp as someone who spends x minutes on a quest to kill x mobs and get y object or to save z person....



Choice, thats what the game offers... I initially wanted to play an evil character... but the thing is, there are only shades of gray in Ferelden... You can be a blood mage without being evil, the only reason people say it is evil is because A) restricted by the chantry You CAN be evil while weilding it and hurt/control people... you can hurt people with the other spells as well.. .but the chantry outlaws it.



Your decisions have repercussions like in real life... if someone offers you to drive them to their place and you decline... well you will not have found out they wanted to give you 50$ for your trouble (example)...



If you feel its not rewarding, maybe your are trying to hard to be evil and your free will is blocked by it... I play the game like I want, if the npc compels me to tell him to leave or hurt him or help him, I do... thats the beauty of choice.

[dannythefool]

I'm playing the most evil character of all at the moment, running about the countryside and generally being nice to people so they love me, seducing Alistair so he'll love me, and eventually I'm sure I can be queen, the entire place will belong to me and nobody will be any the wiser. They won't even have the slightest clue they've been betrayed and used so I can be queen.

[tkaz85]

I think the point of the choices in this game is that, like in ME, your ultimate goal is "good". This is not like KOTOR where you can choose to side with evil. If you finish the game you WILL have defeated the Archdemon and saved Ferelden from the darkspawn no matter choices you made. So perhaps we should ake a cue form ME and use Paragon and Ruthless instead. In this regard being ruthless will close some doors to you, and open up new ones.

[Nhani]

marshalleck wrote...
This always happens in games where you can be good or evil. I think it's because most players choose to follow the default 'good' route, so that gets the most developer attention.

I think actually, in this case it's more a situation of the fact that you can't actually be "good", so by nature you can't be evil just for the sake of evil either. Sure, there's some choices that are far more selfless than others, but if you take choices like siding with the Templars versus siding with the Mages - there's no absolute good choice; you chose between taking the risk that some mages may be corrupted versus destroying the Circle to end the corruption.

Dragon Age doesn't have an absolute good - siding with the Mages or with the Templars in the Mage Circle isn't a choice of good versus evil, it's about risks versus rewards. You might side with the Templars because you hate mages - that's pretty selfish. Or you might side with the Templars because you feel the risk of there still being corrupted mages left to harm the world is too great - that's more of a selfless decision.

It's not that the game lacks rewards for selfishness or selflessness, it's that the game doesn't reward stupidity. You need a setting with an absolute good to be the moustache-twirling kind of evil that does evil things and makes evil experiments just for the sake of being evil.

[Zweijsters]

Hence why I put the word evil between apostrophes



And I'm not expecting that someone gives me a reward for kicking them in the shin and laughing about it. It's just annoying me that there is the option to do so, which only affects your game negatively. And don't bull**** me with 'that's the way the cookie crumbles in real life aswell' becuase let's face it. If we wanted to play real life, we wouldn't have been spending hours upon hours enjoying this magnificent world, and the freedom to do whatever the *bleep* you want. I just wished for a rewarding experience, no matter what path you choose to take.

[marshalleck]

Nhani wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
This always happens in games where you can be good or evil. I think it's because most players choose to follow the default 'good' route, so that gets the most developer attention.

I think actually, in this case it's more a situation of the fact that you can't actually be "good", so by nature you can't be evil just for the sake of evil either. Sure, there's some choices that are far more selfless than others, but if you take choices like siding with the Templars versus siding with the Mages - there's no absolute good choice; you chose between taking the risk that some mages may be corrupted versus destroying the Circle to end the corruption.

Dragon Age doesn't have an absolute good - siding with the Mages or with the Templars in the Mage Circle isn't a choice of good versus evil, it's about risks versus rewards. You might side with the Templars because you hate mages - that's pretty selfish. Or you might side with the Templars because you feel the risk of there still being corrupted mages left to harm the world is too great - that's more of a selfless decision.

It's not that the game lacks rewards for selfishness or selflessness, it's that the game doesn't reward stupidity. You need a setting with an absolute good to be the moustache-twirling kind of evil that does evil things and makes evil experiments just for the sake of being evil.

The point though is that if you tell someone to ****** off, there is no replacing that source of XP. There is no alternative path for many of the side quests. It's a meta-game problem, not a narrative problem.

[marshalleck]

enchantment

(double post. apologies)

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 novembre 2009 - 04:21 .

[_____o_O___]

Can not do whatever you want. Game is not infinite.

[_____o_O___]

dannythefool wrote...

I'm playing the most evil character of all at the moment, running about the countryside and generally being nice to people so they love me, seducing Alistair so he'll love me, and eventually I'm sure I can be queen, the entire place will belong to me and nobody will be any the wiser. They won't even have the slightest clue they've been betrayed and used so I can be queen.

Sounds like real life. I like you. Really I do...

[marshalleck]

_____o_O___ wrote...

Can not do whatever you want. Game is not infinite.

Why can't there be more side quests with a more 'evil' default path? This goes back to my original comment about development costs. They focus more on the 'good' because it's what most people choose to play.

[Zweijsters]

marshalleck wrote...

enchantment

(double post. apologies)

I laughed