138 réponses à ce sujet

[JnEricsonx]

Is that no matter what, I can't change his views on mages even a little, even when I'm a mage, have been nothing but decent and fair, happily kill slavers and blood mages right in front of him, but I give a scared mage kid a break, or at least have them go back to the circle, or have the templars escort them back, and he still gets rivalry points.  At least in ME 1 you could change Garrus's mind about doing things the right way.  I like Fenris, but boy, he does sometimes ****** me off.

[Lithuasil]

Note that rivalry isn't equal to "doesn't like you". Having the slider in the middle, where the character doesn't care about you, is bad, having it on either extreme means the character respects you, just either in an more agreeing or more disagreeing manner.

[GunMoth]

That's what I missed about Sten from Origins. Even though he had is ideals, he would respect you, and you could FEEL that respect. He would stop speaking out against you and would talk about cookies. You can't simply "agree to disagree" then turn around and having him screaming in your face about mages 10 minutes later.

However, I feel the same way about Anders. They're both the same character, just on opposite sides of the battle, fighting for the same things.

[WhiteKnyght]

Fenris is a little hypocritical where the Circle and Apostates are concerned.

he ran from his masters, yet thinks making prisoners/slaves out of innocent mages who've done him no wrong is okay. in his banter with Bethany he fails to see that she is the same as him.

[Lithuasil]

Go do the blade of mercy thing, and the final speech with fenris on maxed rivalry again - I don't know about you, but I 'could' feel him respecting me, when he decided to abandon his cause, to fight alongside a mage, to protect other mages.

[GunMoth]

Lithuasil wrote...

Go do the blade of mercy thing, and the final speech with fenris on maxed rivalry again - I don't know about you, but I 'could' feel him respecting me, when he decided to abandon his cause, to fight alongside a mage, to protect other mages.

Even when you first meet his character and you ask "would you fight along a mage" he says he would. I had max rivalry, but he left me. However, I think its because I let Anders live? 

[Lithuasil]

GunMoth wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Go do the blade of mercy thing, and the final speech with fenris on maxed rivalry again - I don't know about you, but I 'could' feel him respecting me, when he decided to abandon his cause, to fight alongside a mage, to protect other mages.

Even when you first meet his character and you ask "would you fight along a mage" he says he would. I had max rivalry, but he left me. However, I think its because I let Anders live? 

I let anders live, and Fenris didn't even partially abandon me (like he does when you're not high enough). Can't say what you did wrong

[GunMoth]

Lithuasil wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Go do the blade of mercy thing, and the final speech with fenris on maxed rivalry again - I don't know about you, but I 'could' feel him respecting me, when he decided to abandon his cause, to fight alongside a mage, to protect other mages.

Even when you first meet his character and you ask "would you fight along a mage" he says he would. I had max rivalry, but he left me. However, I think its because I let Anders live? 

I let anders live, and Fenris didn't even partially abandon me (like he does when you're not high enough). Can't say what you did wrong

Huh, I'll have to replay and try it again. Because I definitely had his companion perk and we also had a conversation where he was like "mayun I am so drunk we don't always see eye to eye blahblahblah"

[Lithuasil]

Did you give him both his gifts?

[Oneiropolos]

Fenris does change his viewpoints a little, but he's also seen more corruption by mages than anyone else has. I mean, alot of us get fed up in Act III because we're like "And...every mage turns to blood magic. Gah!" while for Fenris it's "And every mage sacrifices the innocents for blood magic.... wait, what do you mean you don't? You're not REALLY a mage. You just... do...magey things...." But he does say you're the best mage he's ever known when he toasts you in a friendship, and Fenris's rivalry explicitly states, "Fenris has agreed to disagree". He also says, about Bethany to Anders, that Bethany was not weak. So he does admire her. If you're the mage, he'll say that Hawke is not weak.

[Kriselia]

I actually liked this about him.
He hates mages, he has extensive reasons to hate them and he has enough of a backbone to stand behind that opinion. It wouldn't be very realistic if you could actually make him change his mind about it.

[JnEricsonx]

True, but even when you talk to him after first going to Danrius's mansion, he even admits that not all mages are bad, some are good people, I just wish there was more of that from him, ESPECIALLY if you play as a good-tempered mage who'll happily kick the hell out of slavers, abominations, and blood mages alike, which I did first playthrough.

[Tripedius]

Just another example of bad writing. When being a mage Fenris did give me the feeling that he could see that there are better mages around than the ones he's encounterd. He even became a little softer. However in certain quests this viewpoint isnt present and he's all mages are bad again.

[Wulfram]

Lithuasil wrote...

Note that rivalry isn't equal to "doesn't like you". Having the slider in the middle, where the character doesn't care about you, is bad, having it on either extreme means the character respects you, just either in an more agreeing or more disagreeing manner.

Of course, what this means is that Fenris respects slavery supporting blood mages.

[Trophonius]

It's kinda hard to change someone's viewpoint about mages when he's been subject to slavery and traumatic freak experiments. There's also the possibility that Danarius sexually abused him. When you first recruit him, he apologizes for his vitriolic rant about mages when you (mage) or Bethany confront him about it.

I agree about the rivalry points though. While the rivalry system isn't a negative thing by any means, it seems excessive how he gives you 5 rivalry points no matter what you do after the quest with Hadriana (I think). I've tried to be nice and civil with him, but there are times when I want to kick him across a ravine and never look back.

[TheBlackBaron]

To be fair to Fenris, he's seen and suffered under the worst excesses that mages can bring forth with their power. I quite like how most of the characters stand by their convictions even though Hawke can change them a little.

Doesn't excuse his prejudices and hypocrisy or lessen my desire to punch him in the throat, of course.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 08 avril 2011 - 10:15 .

[Torax]

Fenris didn't hate Bethany. His banter with her was generally just words of caution about the ever present threat of Templar hunters. Bethany was the mage he was watching out for. It was Merrill and Anders that Fenris didn't trust. He saw them as weak and far easier to corrupt. Bethany was stronger than she let on. He just wanted to make sure she was always aware of the threats out to get her. In particular armed templars.

[TheBlackBaron]

Torax wrote...

Fenris didn't hate Bethany. His banter with her was generally just words of caution about the ever present threat of Templar hunters. Bethany was the mage he was watching out for. It was Merrill and Anders that Fenris didn't trust. He saw them as weak and far easier to corrupt. Bethany was stronger than she let on. He just wanted to make sure she was always aware of the threats out to get her. In particular armed templars.

The main reason Fenris doesn't hate Bethany is because she's quite a bit more open to the Circle - or at least the basic idea of it - than the other two. 

I mean, maybe it's just the way I was reading his banter, but it seems like he mistrusts her just as much as the other two, he just isn't as vocal or open about it (probably because Hawke is right there). 

[Rheia]

With rivalry system in place, Fenris has potential to grow to respect Hawke despite disagreeing with their decisions, and I really do like that change in game mechanics.

I don't view it as literal "I respect that you support mages' freedom, or I respect that you don't slaughter slavers on sight' thing". It's more of a "Your decisions are misguided, but I can't dispute your convictions kind of thing."

As for not changing his view on mages. Honestly. How many mages in Kirkwall gave you any reason to believe they are anything more than dangerous and will resort to -any- kind of means to achieve their ends? Other than, possibly Hawke (and did your mage Hawke resist taking that bloodmage spec, while we are at it? )

He doesn't change his opinion on mages and magic in general, but I found the fact that he makes an exception to Hawke/Bethany is actually far preferable to him changing his whole worldview, especially when he had absolutely no reason to do so.

Modifié par Rheia, 08 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[Crunchyinmilk]

Kriselia wrote...
I actually liked this about him.
He hates mages, he has extensive reasons to hate them and he has enough of a backbone to stand behind that opinion. It wouldn't be very realistic if you could actually make him change his mind about it.

Its why I hate him (not as a character. He's well written)

I disagree that he has back bone.  I don't think he has much of one, its why he comes off as a real person.  He spends the entire game (6+ years) externalising his hate for mages, based entirely on his own limited experience with magic.  

He never really tries to change his view because that would require thinking long and hard about his past, which his own mind fights against.

When he gets his big confrontation with his past (sister), what does he do? (if you don't let him kill her, you earn rivalry points!) She stands there as living proof that his years of torture and torment are SELF INFLICTED.  All these years he's blamed magic and mages, and lumped all mages together because he's needed a single target for his hatred but been unwilling to focus it where it belongs. On himself.  

He actively sought the process.  You can argue his origins as a slave all you want but it was still a choice he made, just like she did, and he wanted to kill her for making the SAME choice.  Magic exposed his own weakness and he's hated it with a passion ever since.

Every time you see Fenris scoffing at a mage for resorting to the darker aspects of magic because they feel the need to, he's happily ignoring the fact that he did the same thing all those years ago and hates himself for it.  Mages and magic are just the easier target for his hate.

Modifié par Crunchyinmilk, 08 avril 2011 - 10:41 .

[The Angry One]

The fact that he sought out the markings himself (to free his family in the process) doesn't change that a) he was a slave and most Magisters are EVIL.

Modifié par The Angry One, 08 avril 2011 - 10:39 .

[TobiTobsen]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Torax wrote...

Fenris didn't hate Bethany. His banter with her was generally just words of caution about the ever present threat of Templar hunters. Bethany was the mage he was watching out for. It was Merrill and Anders that Fenris didn't trust. He saw them as weak and far easier to corrupt. Bethany was stronger than she let on. He just wanted to make sure she was always aware of the threats out to get her. In particular armed templars.

The main reason Fenris doesn't hate Bethany is because she's quite a bit more open to the Circle - or at least the basic idea of it - than the other two. 

I mean, maybe it's just the way I was reading his banter, but it seems like he mistrusts her just as much as the other two, he just isn't as vocal or open about it (probably because Hawke is right there). 

I always had the impression that Fenris tried to push Bethany into the arms of the circle. He knows that Anders and Merrill don't considers this an option so he's ****ing at them. Bethany is unsure and he wants to convince her that the circle is the right choice.

Pretty funny that Fenris thinks the circle is great and then whines around that he is such a poor guy because he was a slave. Shouldn't he support the mages to because they want to be free? But hey... that's totally different! Quite the hypocrite, our poor, poor broody elf.

[The Angry One]

Compared to Tevinter, where a slave is sacrificed so a Magister can level up even if they've served them for years and are actually liked the Gallows is a tea party.
It's less hypocrisy, more "I've seen worse you buncha crybabies."

[Crunchyinmilk]

The Angry One wrote...

The fact that he sought out the markings himself (to free his family in the process) doesn't change that a) he was a slave and most Magisters are EVIL.

It so does.  He assumes every mage will resort to the darker parts of the art when pressured in times of great personal need.  Just like he did.

It is totally a case of pot calling the kettle black.  There's a reason he repressed his past, and like many repressed memories its intricately linked with shame.

[TheBlackBaron]

The Angry One wrote...

Compared to Tevinter, where a slave is sacrificed so a Magister can level up even if they've served them for years and are actually liked the Gallows is a tea party.
It's less hypocrisy, more "I've seen worse you buncha crybabies."

Good thing Hawke isn't in Tevinter then. Fenris turning the broodiness up to 11 would likely just make me fly into a rage.