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[The Angry One]

Crunchyinmilk wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The fact that he sought out the markings himself (to free his family in the process) doesn't change that a) he was a slave and most Magisters are EVIL.

It so does.  He assumes every mage will resort to the darker parts of the art when pressured in times of great personal need.  Just like he did.

It is totally a case of pot calling the kettle black.  There's a reason he repressed his past, and like many repressed memories its intricately linked with shame.

How does that compare? While Fenris isn't as much of an innocent victim with regards to the markings as he thinks he is, the markings hurt nobody but himself in the end, and he doesn't use the abilities they give him to oppress and kill innocents, nor did he ever intend to.

[Wulfram]

The Angry One wrote...

How does that compare? While Fenris isn't as much of an innocent victim with regards to the markings as he thinks he is, the markings hurt nobody but himself in the end, and he doesn't use the abilities they give him to oppress and kill innocents, nor did he ever intend to.

Apart from the Fog Warriors.  And the mages in the tower, if Hawke lets him have his way at the end.

[Blackfriarslady]

Playing as a Mage i just couldn't please Fenris and at the end when I naturally sided with the mages, he turned on me....... this was good as I so wanted to to turn him to stone every time I had dialogue with him! Found his moanihg throughout annoying lol!

[TheBlackBaron]

Wulfram wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

How does that compare? While Fenris isn't as much of an innocent victim with regards to the markings as he thinks he is, the markings hurt nobody but himself in the end, and he doesn't use the abilities they give him to oppress and kill innocents, nor did he ever intend to.

Apart from the Fog Warriors.  And the mages in the tower, if Hawke lets him have his way at the end.

95% of the mages in the Kirkwall Circle would probably not be considered innocents. 

That said, I don't doubt he'd gleefully kill the other 5% as well. 

[The Angry One]

Wulfram wrote...

Apart from the Fog Warriors.

You mean the ones killed at Denarius' command?
I'm sure Fenris has killed many innocents under Denarius, but that's not what I meant.

And the mages in the tower, if Hawke lets him have his way at the end.

Considering 90% of all other "innocent" mages up to the point turn into abominations or are blood mages, that's open to interpretation, really.

[Crunchyinmilk]

How can you say the markings hurt no one but himself? He has slaughtered hundreds if not thousands (that entire village that sheltered him for starters) at the whim of Denarius. With whom the bargain was struct. Not counting those he killed just to 'earn' the chance to make the deal.

It was a deal Leto/Fenris entered into with a known evil. It parallels beautifully with the object of Fenris' hate. Mages who will in his mind, inevitably strike a deal with a demon and embrace blood magic.

He hates himself, mages are just an ugly mirror. Its why he abhors them one and all. He can't help but see his own weakness in them. Even in the face of mages doing good and refusing to embrace the darker arts, he can't help but think its inevitable because he was too weak to resist.

Modifié par Crunchyinmilk, 08 avril 2011 - 11:04 .

[Wulfram]

The Angry One wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Apart from the Fog Warriors.

You mean the ones killed at Denarius' command?
I'm sure Fenris has killed many innocents under Denarius, but that's not what I meant.

The ones he chose to kill, yes.  I don't see why he should get a free pass because he was too weak willed to resist Danarius - he doesn't allow the same to mages who give in to demons, or indeed mages who act under Magister's commands.

Considering 90% of all other "innocent" mages up to the point turn into abominations or are blood mages, that's open to interpretation, really.

Innocent mages tend to be safely locked away by the Templars - it's the ones with blood magic who are capable of resisting, and thus they are the ones Hawke encounters.  None of the mages who die fighting the Qunari seem to have resorted to blood magic or turned into abominations, and we see a lot of mages die without doing anything demonic when the Templars attack, too.

If nothing else, there are surely a lot of children in that tower.

[Madkipz]

Fenris is in the right:

The circle is not equal to slavery. Mages must learn at a young age to control their magic and so you take young children from their families. Mages can kill many people under the sway of demons so they must either be killed, made tranquil or hardened and prepared (harrowing \\ rite of tranquility).

Up until that point the circle works great. It is what mages get to do with their lives afterwards when the circles start setting boundaries and becomes restrictive. Passing your harrowing should be more akin to a letter of confidence or a lisence of trust rather than used as an excuse to keep beating you across the brow with the same blood mage lectures you have been force fed since you were a child.

Anders is wrong:

the abuses that happen within circles do not warrant disbanding the concept all together and the freedoms he seek while admirable do not work in the real world unless you are the tevinter empirium.

Modifié par Madkipz, 08 avril 2011 - 11:23 .

[TobiTobsen]

Madkipz wrote...

Fenris is in the right:

The circle is not equal to slavery. Mages must learn at a young age to control their magic and so you take young children from their families. Mages can kill many people under the sway of demons so they must either be killed, made tranquil or hardened and prepared (harrowing rite of tranquility).

Up until that point the circle works great. It is what mages get to do with their lives afterwards when the circles start setting boundaries and becomes restrictive. Passing your harrowing should be more akin to a letter of confidence or a lisence of trust rather than used as an excuse to keep beating you across the brow with the same blood mage lectures you have been force fed since you were a child.

Anders is wrong:

the abuses that happen within circles do not warrant disbanding the concept all together and the freedoms he seek while admirable do not work in the real world unless you are the tevinter empirium.

Fenris isn't in the "please learn to use your magic right" camp. He is in the "every mage is inherently evil and will turn on you the second he has an excuse for it" camp.

And you know what's funny? What is the argument you use when you side with the mages and Fenris turned against you? Hawke compares the circle in Kirkwall to slavery. And Fenris agrees before siding with you against the templars.

That's why I called him a hypocrite. "Freedom to all slaves, except the mages. They really need somebody that shows them where their place is." is his motto until you rub it right under his nose and he is forced to see it.

[Anariel Theirin]

I find that Fenris is a bit more complex when you go the rival path with him. I did the friendship path on my first playthrough, and he really pissed me off. Frequently. Now I'm a mage on the rival path with him, and right after "A Bitter Pill" when he comes to speak to you at your house, I got the option to say to him that the quest for Danarius is destroying him. He says something at that point that I thought was enlightening about his character. I forget the exact wording, but something like "I know, this hatred is eating me up inside, I don't want to be this way." I never got anything like that from him on the friendship path, and I think it makes the point pretty clearly that Fenris realizes the error in what he says about mages, but the hatred he feels is just too powerful.

Frankly, I think the biggest failure when it came to Fenris is that, at the end of the game, you just don't see him get over this, even a little. I'd have loved to see some character development from him. I don't mean for him to start agreeing that mages aren't so bad, but maybe, I don't know, have him admit he's wrong a bit more? Or show something, anything, to indicate that he may let some of the hatred go finally? There was potential for this in his Act III quest, but then at the end of things, he's still the same old Fenris. I was disappointed. He's truly a broken man, and it seems like he'll never be fixed. Hawke said it best in one of her lines to him, that he'll always be a slave as long as he's still this obsessed over it.

[Madkipz]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Madkipz wrote...

Fenris is in the right:

The circle is not equal to slavery. Mages must learn at a young age to control their magic and so you take young children from their families. Mages can kill many people under the sway of demons so they must either be killed, made tranquil or hardened and prepared (harrowing rite of tranquility).

Up until that point the circle works great. It is what mages get to do with their lives afterwards when the circles start setting boundaries and becomes restrictive. Passing your harrowing should be more akin to a letter of confidence or a lisence of trust rather than used as an excuse to keep beating you across the brow with the same blood mage lectures you have been force fed since you were a child.

Anders is wrong:

the abuses that happen within circles do not warrant disbanding the concept all together and the freedoms he seek while admirable do not work in the real world unless you are the tevinter empirium.

Fenris isn't in the "please learn to use your magic right" camp. He is in the "every mage is inherently evil and will turn on you the second he has an excuse for it" camp.

And you know what's funny? What is the argument you use when you side with the mages and Fenris turned against you? Hawke compares the circle in Kirkwall to slavery. And Fenris agrees before siding with you against the templars.

That's why I called him a hypocrite. "Freedom to all slaves, except the mages. They really need somebody that shows them where their place is." is his motto until you rub it right under his nose and he is forced to see it.

Hmm yea, i tend to forget all the dialogue i have gone trough. Most of what Fenris says is true though, The circle is needed, Mages are not ordinary people and when threatened and the chips are down most mages will turn to demons for aid.

So while disputes may be formed about how the circle goes about doing things and the amount of freedom mages have can be put to question that in no way or form means mages can ever have 100% freedom. they need to be taken as young as possible. They also need to be policed, they need to be prepared and kept away from people untill they are ready. A mage need but fall asleep and they meet demons in their dreams.

When they wake you dont know if they have become malificar or abomination or whatever. I have MAJOR ****ing issues siding with the mages, even in a mage playtrough.

[Addai]

What about the DA2 story would convince Fenris that his central viewpoint is wrong, i.e. that the power mages wield is inherently dangerous? If anything, he is proven right, no matter whether Hawke is a mage or not.

[Anariel Theirin]

Fenris *may* be right, if we're speaking about Tevinter (obviously corrupt) and Kirkwall (mages insane probably because of weak veil) specifically. I think what bothers a lot of people is that we've seen where this isn't true if we've played Origins. We see plenty of "good" mages back in Ferelden, and so that's where it's difficult for us to just ascribe to the belief that mages are evil. Fenris, however, has always lived around evil or corrupt mages. He's never seen anything else. He's been abused and tortured by mages, and then comes to Kirwall to see that nearly all the mages there are insane as well. I think he has very good reason to fear and hate them. That doesn't make him any more tolerable in his stubborn hatred, however.

Even though the mages in Kirkwall are nuts for the most part, I still don't think Fenris is right. He's wrong on a global level, maybe, and right as far as Kirkwall goes. That's how I view it, anyway.

[Herr Uhl]

PurebredCorn wrote...

OP, you got rivalry points because he respects you, not because he dislikes you.

No, rivalry points are bound to him disagreeing. He respects you despite that, not because of it.

[Addai]

Are Fereldan mages really any better? Individuals sure, but that is also the case in Kirkwall. What happened with Uldred was a Kirkwall in miniature. I'm sure the history of Fereldan's circle is known in DA2 time and that supposing he heard about it, that it would at all change Fenris' mind. As it is, he recognizes that not all mages are evil.

Personally I find it refreshing when I come across an NPC who will not flip his whole personality based on the PC's godliness.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[Herr Uhl]

Addai67 wrote...

Personally I find it refreshing when I come across an NPC who will not flip his whole personality based on the PC's godliness.

You mean like most NPC's in DAO and DA2?

[The Angry One]

Hell, Fenris' own sister is a mage and what does she do? Try to sell him out to become a Magister.
It's hard to let go of hate when it's constantly reinforced.

[Anariel Theirin]

Addai67 wrote...

Are Fereldan mages really any better? Individuals sure, but that is also the case in Kirkwall. What happened with Uldred was a Kirkwall in miniature. I'm sure the history of Fereldan's circle is known in DA2 time and that supposing he heard about it, that it would at all change Fenris' mind. As it is, he recognizes that not all mages are evil.

Personally I find it refreshing when I come across an NPC who will not flip his whole personality based on the PC's godliness.

I think they are.  Almost every mage you encounter in Kirkwall is a blood magic using borderline insane vengeful jerk.  Even your two party member mages are...questionable (Anders moreso than Merrill, but she gets dangerously close to corruption too).  I think we saw plenty of goodness from the mages in Ferelden, even those using blood magic.  For example, Morrigan, who, despite her blood magic using and cunning nature, seems completely capable and fully in control at every step of it.  And Wynne, who is a circle-respecting, kindhearted, respectful individual.  I felt like the evil mages in Ferelden were the exception, not the rule.  In Kirkwall, I felt the exact opposite.

I agree on being happy that there's a character who doesn't bow down to Hawke's godliness.  My issue with Fenris is moreso lack of character development than him agreeing with Hawke.  He never grows through the game, never changes in any way, never shows compassion for anyone but himself.  Like with Merrill, she sees that she was misguided after the events of her story.  She sees the mistakes she's made, and how they're irreversible, and it has nothing to do with Hawke and everything to do with her own story.  Fenris always hates, regardless.  Always.

[Ryzaki]

Anariel Theirin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Are Fereldan mages really any better? Individuals sure, but that is also the case in Kirkwall. What happened with Uldred was a Kirkwall in miniature. I'm sure the history of Fereldan's circle is known in DA2 time and that supposing he heard about it, that it would at all change Fenris' mind. As it is, he recognizes that not all mages are evil.

Personally I find it refreshing when I come across an NPC who will not flip his whole personality based on the PC's godliness.

I think they are.  Almost every mage you encounter in Kirkwall is a blood magic using borderline insane vengeful jerk.  Even your two party member mages are...questionable (Anders moreso than Merrill, but she gets dangerously close to corruption too).  I think we saw plenty of goodness from the mages in Ferelden, even those using blood magic.  For example, Morrigan, who, despite her blood magic using and cunning nature, seems completely capable and fully in control at every step of it.  And Wynne, who is a circle-respecting, kindhearted, respectful individual.  I felt like the evil mages in Ferelden were the exception, not the rule.  In Kirkwall, I felt the exact opposite.

I agree on being happy that there's a character who doesn't bow down to Hawke's godliness.  My issue with Fenris is moreso lack of character development than him agreeing with Hawke.  He never grows through the game, never changes in any way, never shows compassion for anyone but himself.  Like with Merrill, she sees that she was misguided after the events of her story.  She sees the mistakes she's made, and how they're irreversible, and it has nothing to do with Hawke and everything to do with her own story.  Fenris always hates, regardless.  Always.

And that explains why I feel his comfort after ALl that Remains is so weak.  

Seriously I like Fenris. But the dude has some serious issues. And I also have to say the whole never being able to change his mind on the mage issue was abit disappointing. Realistic. Still disappointing. 

[Addai]

Anariel Theirin wrote...
I agree on being happy that there's a character who doesn't bow down to Hawke's godliness.  My issue with Fenris is moreso lack of character development than him agreeing with Hawke.  He never grows through the game, never changes in any way, never shows compassion for anyone but himself.  Like with Merrill, she sees that she was misguided after the events of her story.  She sees the mistakes she's made, and how they're irreversible, and it has nothing to do with Hawke and everything to do with her own story.  Fenris always hates, regardless.  Always.

Not true.  In fact you could see his zealousness about mages as a desire not to see anyone else suffer what he has, and what he's seen many innocents go through both at the hands of slavers and the magisters.

I also disagree that he has no development.  His memories emerge, he realizes he needs to start a new life and begin to trust someone.  You don't turn a lifetime of slavery around quickly.  Not without the story ending up a pile of cheese, at least.

[Plaintiff]

My main problem with Fenris is that he never wears shoes. Gross.

[Plaintiff]

Gah, doublepost.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 avril 2011 - 04:47 .

[Anariel Theirin]

Addai67 wrote...

Anariel Theirin wrote...
I agree on being happy that there's a character who doesn't bow down to Hawke's godliness.  My issue with Fenris is moreso lack of character development than him agreeing with Hawke.  He never grows through the game, never changes in any way, never shows compassion for anyone but himself.  Like with Merrill, she sees that she was misguided after the events of her story.  She sees the mistakes she's made, and how they're irreversible, and it has nothing to do with Hawke and everything to do with her own story.  Fenris always hates, regardless.  Always.

Not true.  In fact you could see his zealousness about mages as a desire not to see anyone else suffer what he has, and what he's seen many innocents go through both at the hands of slavers and the magisters.

I also disagree that he has no development.  His memories emerge, he realizes he needs to start a new life and begin to trust someone.  You don't turn a lifetime of slavery around quickly.  Not without the story ending up a pile of cheese, at least.

Fair points.  But even after his memories emerge a bit, and he confronts his sister, and he learns something about his past, he's still all about hate.  That's the part that bothers me.  I definitely am not expecting some dramatic scene of him seeing the error of his ways and going around hugging mages.  But say, for example, if you didn't have to convince him not to kill his sister...say he made that decision on his own?  Something like that, I think, would show a bit of self-doubt in his hatred that would really show growth on his part in a non-cheesy way.  I was bothered by the fact that even after he learns about his true past from his sister, he doesn't say much about it.  I was just expecting *more* from that quest, and felt that there was lost opportunity there.

Realistically, it's a bit disappointing that the only thing to make him *not* kill his sister is if Hawke intervenes.  To me, that felt very much like Hawke-worship from him.  But this is just my opinion.  I can see where you're coming from, I just didn't feel that way on my playthrough.