134 réponses à ce sujet

[haroldhardluck]

Valus wrote...
Many people seem to be missing the point here that I don't care which side any players took or what drove you to it. I care about evidence to actually support your decisions. I only care about getting an answer to why the devs thought it was such a good idea to make 2 opposing cases and only supply one with factual evidence to back it up.

The narration is your factual evidence. It is the convention in all story telling that the narrator is telling the truth about the events.

Furthermore the many blood mages is not factual evidence that the mages are bad. As the narrator says, the repression of the templar is making many mages turn to blood magic to escape their persecution. So the many blood mages and abominations in act 3 is the factual proof that you are asking for. Repression and oppression creates rebellion and is a self fulfilling prophecy. If the mages were not turning to blood magic before, they are now because of the templars treating them as blood mages. That is the whole point of the narrative about the templar oppression. You are expected to add 1 and 1 and get 2.

Harold

[Retserof]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lithuasil - we know that Irving pulled the books on Blood Magic from the library in the Ferelden Circle.

It was originally taught by demons - and supposedly the Harvesters prove that blood magic energy does come from demons (I haven't looked this up, I saw it confirmed in another thread and not disputed)

I believe that would be incorrect.

"According to legend, it was taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of the Tevinter Imperium, by Dumat, the Old God of Silence."

Demons are supposedly the only beings who still have knowledge of blood magic, and to learn it today would require consorting with them. But the knowledge did not originally begin with them (as far as the lore can be considered true). Reference: http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic

[Valus]

Svest wrote...

I would also argue that another example is simply when Meredith rules the city for 3 years.  It can be debated if her rule was tyrranical but what cannot be debated is she is definitely overstepping the traditional authority of the Knight-Commander.

That is a good one but I can't see, even with how powerful the templars are, keeping control of the city if the city didn't want her there. They make mention that she was keeping a new viscount from taking office but I don't understand how. I mean, how could she actually stop it if there weren't enough people supporting her in default control anyhow? If she was physically stopping it why wasn't that addressed?

While, even if her rule was tryrannical, it would certainly call into question the templars overstepping their bounds It still doesn't address how this would negatively effect the mages or how that would influence my choice regarding the rite of annulement.

It certainly calls in to question whether or not Meredith is a psycho, but we got loads of evidence on that already.

[Medhia Nox]

I stand corrected.

I know Blood Magic is the only way to summon demons according to the Origins Codex.

[Maria Caliban]

Valus wrote...

1. I've been given one piece of concrete evidence so far. Congrats? The basis of my question is flawed but you don't state how. Congrats again?

If you've already acknowledged that there's evidence, why do you need me to give you evidence?

If you make an absolute statement, it's either right or wrong. Your absolute statement was wrong.

2. If you say so.

I like how you're both dismissive of those who disagree with you and those who agree with you.

[lx_theo]

Okay, if this is only directed towards deciding whether or not to do the rite in the ways you've laid out. Then there is no encounter with a Mage that supports to go through with it.

[lx_theo]

Oh, and Aveline talks about how she is putting the process of getting a new viscount to a stop. She basically slows the process to such a sluggish and pointless ace it'll keep her in charge for a very, very long time.

[Exile Isan]

@Valus the whole reason you went there to find Ser Alrik was to investigate his making mages (some of them harrowed) into Tranquil, hence the name "Tranquil Solution" that Anders gives it. That was the whole point of Anders quest, was it find out if Meredith or Divine Justinia had anything to do with it or if it was just Ser Alrik. It was just the later, but he had put the idea forward to Meredith she disagreed with him, but she had done nothing to stop him from continuing with his little quest. And I can verify that he was indeed going to make her, Elsa, the mage Alrik had cornered, Tranquil.

[haroldhardluck]

Valus wrote...
That is a good one but I can't see, even with how powerful the templars are, keeping control of the city if the city didn't want her there. They make mention that she was keeping a new viscount from taking office but I don't understand how. I mean, how could she actually stop it if there weren't enough people supporting her in default control anyhow? If she was physically stopping it why wasn't that addressed?

Read some history about Hitler and the subversion of the Weimar republic.  Through out the game, it is made clear that Kirkwall is a city divided. Native Kirkwallers resent the many Fereldens living in their city. Ferelden refugees who struggle to simply survive fill the city. Your character's success is an exception for a Ferelden. Then there the are elves who are the Jews in the world. And there are many gangs that run wild in streets. There is plenty of fear and hatred and suspicion for Meredith to exploit.

While, even if her rule was tryrannical, it would certainly call into
question the templars overstepping their bounds It still doesn't address
how this would negatively effect the mages or how that would influence
my choice regarding the rite of annulement.

Then you are blind to the obvious and it is clear from your many posting that you do not want to see the obvious. So there is no point in feeding the troll. Bye.

Harold

[lx_theo]

I actually do hope this guy is trolling. The. We'd be able to have nice little laugh later on how stupid he seemed. Guess that's not the case. A blind eye on your mirror leaves you looking beautiful.

[Svest]

Valus wrote...

That is a good one but I can't see, even with how powerful the templars are, keeping control of the city if the city didn't want her there. They make mention that she was keeping a new viscount from taking office but I don't understand how. I mean, how could she actually stop it if there weren't enough people supporting her in default control anyhow? If she was physically stopping it why wasn't that addressed?

While, even if her rule was tryrannical, it would certainly call into question the templars overstepping their bounds It still doesn't address how this would negatively effect the mages or how that would influence my choice regarding the rite of annulement.

It certainly calls in to question whether or not Meredith is a psycho, but we got loads of evidence on that already.

You are correct, she probably does have a number of supporters outside the templars.  Many people are terrified of mages (in many cases with good reason) and this fear keeps her in power. 

The way it effects your decision is it shows Meredith and the templars taking things further than they are traditionally supposed to.  You are supposed to ask yourself if it is ok for a Knight-Commander to take over the city if she feels it is necessary to "save" it or if that is going too far.  Then you are forced to ask yourself if the rite of annulment is not another example of Meredith taking things too far.

Modifié par Svest, 21 mars 2011 - 05:37 .

[Valus]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Valus wrote...
That is a good one but I can't see, even with how powerful the templars are, keeping control of the city if the city didn't want her there. They make mention that she was keeping a new viscount from taking office but I don't understand how. I mean, how could she actually stop it if there weren't enough people supporting her in default control anyhow? If she was physically stopping it why wasn't that addressed?

Read some history about Hitler and the subversion of the Weimar republic.  Through out the game, it is made clear that Kirkwall is a city divided. Native Kirkwallers resent the many Fereldens living in their city. Ferelden refugees who struggle to simply survive fill the city. Your character's success is an exception for a Ferelden. Then there the are elves who are the Jews in the world. And there are many gangs that run wild in streets. There is plenty of fear and hatred and suspicion for Meredith to exploit.

While, even if her rule was tryrannical, it would certainly call into
question the templars overstepping their bounds It still doesn't address
how this would negatively effect the mages or how that would influence
my choice regarding the rite of annulement.

Then you are blind to the obvious and it is clear from your many posting that you do not want to see the obvious. So there is no point in feeding the troll. Bye.

Harold

Yes, yes, I'm a facist troll. back on topic please.

Please see posts by Svest for more information on how to prove me wrong and look good doing it. I'm not conceding he's entirely right, but the case is stronger than 'go read some history books'.

[Retserof]

Valus wrote...
Yes, yes, I'm a facist troll. back on topic please.

What do you mean back on topic? Your questions are illogical, given you said you don't want any assumptions (as previously stated by several people, myself included).

You can't get back on topic if the topic doesn't make sense...

[Valus]

Svest wrote...

You are correct, she probably does have a number of supporters outside the templars.  Many people are terrified of mages (in many cases with good reason) and this fear keeps her in power. 

The way it effects your decision is it shows Meredith and the templars taking things further than they are traditionally supposed to.  You are supposed to ask yourself if it is ok for a Knight-Commander to take over the city if she feels it is necessary to "save" it or if that is going too far.  Then you are forced to ask yourself if the rite of annulment is not another example of Meredith taking things too far.

That brings up a really good point. Thank you. The rite of annulement is supposed to only be ennacted by the Grand Cleric. I presumed, since she was dead, it fell to the authority of the next in line (since it's safe to assume there has to be a fall back solution lest it leave the templars impotent in the event of an assasination). I suppose I should have wondered if this was one more example of her going one step further than necessary.

I guess one could argue the real decision is not whether or not the rite was appropriate in this occasion but whether or not it should be her making the call. Interesting stuff.

[lx_theo]

If I made a thread that asked if scooby doe's use of magic endangered the mages cause too much, would anyone who told me scooby doo wasn't in the game be going off topic? No.

[Svest]

Valus wrote...

That brings up a really good point. Thank you. The rite of annulement is supposed to only be ennacted by the Grand Cleric. I presumed, since she was dead, it fell to the authority of the next in line (since it's safe to assume there has to be a fall back solution lest it leave the templars impotent in the event of an assasination). I suppose I should have wondered if this was one more example of her going one step further than necessary.

I guess one could argue the real decision is not whether or not the rite was appropriate in this occasion but whether or not it should be her making the call. Interesting stuff.

One thing you might not have picked up on, I missed it on my first playthrough, one of the templars in the gallows actually mentions that Meredith requested the rite of annulment from Valroyeaux (no idea how to spell that - the Orlesian capitol where the Divine is) before Anders blows up the Chantry. 

I probably missed it on my first playthrough because the guy was dead.  His name is Keras or something like that.  He's the templar that shows up outside the cave after Thrask sends you in to try to convince the mages from Starkhaven to surrender.  In my first game I told him Thrask sent me in to negotiate with them and he attacked us for that.

Modifié par Svest, 21 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[lx_theo]

And that's still not the real descision. It's whether or not it's appropiate to slaughter innocents.

[Svest]

lx_theo wrote...

And that's still not the real descision. It's whether or not it's appropiate to slaughter innocents.

Actually you are supposed to be deciding if there are any innocents or not.

[Unichrone]

The whole dilemma was completely one-sided. There was never any choice for me- the Mages had to die. I don't think BioWare intended to advocate such a conservative philosophy, but that's essentially what they've done.

No one in their right mind will support the mages, unless they're trying to be a jerk, or they're trying to see all the possible outcomes of the game.

[Pandaman102]

Valus wrote...

Svest wrote...

I would also argue that another example is simply when Meredith rules the city for 3 years.  It can be debated if her rule was tyrranical but what cannot be debated is she is definitely overstepping the traditional authority of the Knight-Commander.

That is a good one but I can't see, even with how powerful the templars are, keeping control of the city if the city didn't want her there. They make mention that she was keeping a new viscount from taking office but I don't understand how. I mean, how could she actually stop it if there weren't enough people supporting her in default control anyhow? If she was physically stopping it why wasn't that addressed?

While, even if her rule was tryrannical, it would certainly call into question the templars overstepping their bounds It still doesn't address how this would negatively effect the mages or how that would influence my choice regarding the rite of annulement.

It certainly calls in to question whether or not Meredith is a psycho, but we got loads of evidence on that already.

You're assuming that the faceless masses of nobles in Kirkwall are reacting as they should, not reacting in a way convenient for the plot. Orsino points out Meredith is blocking the process to vote in a new Viscount, Hawke (being nobility now, so I'd assume he/she would also be privvy to political wranglings) conforms this is what's happening during his/her cross questioning, and Aveline's quest in Act 3 also points toward the Templars overstepping their duties by trying to take over the guards.

And Alrik did make suggestive comments while he was threatening the mage. Playing a sarcastic rogue and got the line "Templars fraternizing with mages? Doesn't the Chantry frown upon that?" in response to his lines. Still, a few bad Templars doesn't particularly reflect poorly on the organization as a whole, since they are balanced out by Thrask, Cullen, and the recruit you saved.

[lx_theo]

@unichrone

I support the Mages whole heartily. My opinion actually mirror's Isabela's in game. It's not so much that they are in the situation to safeguard others, it's that they don't even have a say. They've been deprived a freedom of choice, and so much more of their humanity is stripped away by the rules of the circle. It's a horrible, horrible system that in itself creates more bloodmages because some choose to fight back for their humanity in the society and mute resort to such measures. The Templars cause bloodmages themselves much more than the normal world does. As people,they deserve to have the freedom to choose.

Actually, considering it covers humans and elves, humanity might not be the best term.

[Valus]

lx_theo wrote...

If I made a thread that asked if scooby doe's use of magic endangered the mages cause too much, would anyone who told me scooby doo wasn't in the game be going off topic? No.

Ugh, been staring a that sentence for 9 minutes trying to make it either relevant, witty, or even sensical. Sorry.

[lx_theo]

It very relevant. Your cast aside any attempt to point out that there a huge issue with the OP as off topic.

[Valus]

Unichrone wrote...

The whole dilemma was completely one-sided. There was never any choice for me- the Mages had to die. I don't think BioWare intended to advocate such a conservative philosophy, but that's essentially what they've done.

No one in their right mind will support the mages, unless they're trying to be a jerk, or they're trying to see all the possible outcomes of the game.

Obviously I agree but I'm not entirely sure it's a 'right-minded' decision to make. While I do think it takes a certain rogueish attitude to oppose the Templars (and it certainly helps your case if you are an apostate or romancing one). We saw in the 'big choice' for DA:O whether or not to kill Loghain was rife with factual pros and cons. That was a really hard decision to make for me based upon that. I felt that was missing here.

While obviously its going to be harder to make a case against an entire group of people rather than one person they certainly didn't have any problems making the mages look bad, not sure why they skimmped on the gore with the Templars.

[Valus]

Svest wrote...

One thing you might not have picked up on, I missed it on my first playthrough, one of the templars in the gallows actually mentions that Meredith requested the rite of annulment from Valroyeaux (no idea how to spell that - the Orlesian capitol where the Divine is) before Anders blows up the Chantry. 

I probably missed it on my first playthrough because the guy was dead.  His name is Keras or something like that.  He's the templar that shows up outside the cave after Thrask sends you in to try to convince the mages from Starkhaven to surrender.  In my first game I told him Thrask sent me in to negotiate with them and he attacked us for that.

Yeah, I thought that was weird since the codex says it takes a grand cleric to ennact it. Maybe she got shot down so she was going over her head or maybe they retconned who it takes to ennact it. I'm unsure.

Keras attacked you for that? I chucked the runaways at him and he went on his merry way. Might have something to do with the dialog options inside the cave or whatnot.