134 réponses à ce sujet

[Svest]

Valus wrote...

Yeah, I thought that was weird since the codex says it takes a grand cleric to ennact it. Maybe she got shot down so she was going over her head or maybe they retconned who it takes to ennact it. I'm unsure.

Keras attacked you for that? I chucked the runaways at him and he went on his merry way. Might have something to do with the dialog options inside the cave or whatnot.

I assumed either Meredith was trying to go over the Grand Cleric's head or in the codex it was a typo and they meant the Divine instead of the Grand Cleric.

Yeah when you walk out and he asks who you are if you choose the option that says something like "i'm a friend of Thrask's" he attacks you.  Might only happen if you let the mages go but I hadn't even mentioned the mages at that point.  For all he knew I had gone in there and slaughtered them all.

[kasseev]

Good topic OP, clearly lots of controversy looking at all the posts here.

I would say the evidence question you have posed is a bit of a strawman. Hawke and his family have spent their lives running from the templars - you start the game off with them acknowledging this fact. They know firsthand the fear of being caged and prosecuted for being born with an ounce of magic in their blood. Furthermore, their very identity and family standing were taken from them on the slightest hint of magical bloodline - they have faced oppression very clearly at the hands of the Templar/Chantry paradigm of tight control over magic. My Hawke was largely disdainful of the past, and distrusted the templars for other reasons, but I think it is completely logical to assume that the Hawke family has a long history of struggle against the Templar - in the 20-30 years the character has been alive, he/she has spent all but 6 of them fighting to keep his sister free of the templar - this counts for powerful evidence for the player that the templar are a group to be feared and kept at an arms-length.

Moving on to the actual specific case; you seem to be fixated on ideas of evidence and judgement, yet I would submit that any legal analysis of the situation would have to focus first on the decision by Meredith to invoke the right of annulment to begin with. At the time she was having a large confrontation with Orsino, who was stubborn yet specifically not violent. Anders destroyed the chantry in front of her eyes - to the evident shock of Orsino and the Champion, yet she automatically decided to pin the blame on the entirety of the Circle. Not only this, it was clear that even before she had any scintilla of culpatory evidence on the Circle, she had tried to get authorisation for an annulment . Now the fact that she actually had to send a message to Val Royeaux before to get permission for an annulment begs the question here: why didn't she wait and try and get permission again? Why did she simply arrogate all power and authority; while being in a compromised, emotionally unbalanced state after her argument with Orsino, and decide to commit what was essentially church sanctioned genocide on a group of humans who clearly had nothing to do with the terrorist assault. Deciding to mass-kill every member of a social group which births a terrorist violates just about every fibre of morality my Hawke stood for - especially when the decision was made in such questionable circumstances.

Furthermore I don't agree that blood mages are portrayed as an outsize threat to the social order at Kirkwall. I found in my playthrough that on an individual basis the assassins and rogues were far deadlier to my party. Furthermore, while you did get twisted, sick blood mages commit terrible crimes like what happened to the champion's mother, they were far outnumbered by common hoodlums, gangs, qunari and other criminal groups who had the capacity to commit even greater atrocities without all the shiny magic. Magic in the world of Dragon Age is fairly balanced - and a lot of the danger from blood mages comes from the ability of their strongest members to summon forth truly dangerous demons; ie Uldred level maleficari. I would argue that an equivalently powerful non-mage could wreak just as much havoc - case in point: Logain/the Arishok/Meredith at the end. The preponderance of blood mage depredations roughly equals the amount of non-mage crime and violence - so I don't see it as especially strong evidence that the Circle mages must be all killed. Instead I would look to Meredith to see the real danger in the situation.

[Medhia Nox]

Concerning a Templar stating that Meredith wanted the Right of Annulment prior to Anders.

1) It is to the credit of the Chantry/Templars that the Rite of Annulment can't just be done. It must be applied for.

2) It is to the credit of Greagor (especially) and Meredith (somewhat) that they do not go ahead with the Rite of Annulment without it being sanctioned. They abide by the law.

====

I'm sorry to the people who are trying to apply real world thoughts to this topic. Mages in this game aren't like Harry Potter mages. Even in Harry Potter - Harry believes magic to be perfect and the answers to all his problems, until he "grows up" and realizes that it's actually the cause of all his problems as well. But that's not the point.

The closest thing we have in the real world is someone with a mental disorder. Schizophrenia would be most likely the best description. Yes, they are born with powers that people grow enthralled with (oohhh, I can cast fireballs), but in Dragon Age it comes at a terrible price. Real forces are always looking to corrupt them from the moment they first show signs of magic (Conner) to the when they're Senior Enchanters (Uldred) and even First Enchanters (Orsino - but he's poorly written).

If you feel that these people are treated unjustly - then you ought to want to free all those ever put away into an insane asylum (and if you do, you're wasting time on fantasy games - you should be trying to remove insane patients from hospitals right now).

People in mental hospitals are dangerous enough - having voices telling them to do things, now give them a flamethrower - some liquid nitrogen - a tesla coil - and some psychotropic drugs (for Horror, Sleep, etc.) and you've got wildly dangerous individuals.

I think people trivialize the dangers of the spirits of the Fade - but we've only EVER seen one do anything good. ((Two if you count Valor from Origins)). Wynne takes in a spirit of Faith - she fears it, and worries incessantly about being corrupted. She even believes she may be an abomination.

They are Rage - personified. Pride - personified. They're ARE black and white. They are all or nothing. All consuming - and all encompassing.

====

People want to feel special, and magic has always made people feel like they can be unique and powerful. I understand why some people balk at the idea that magic can also be dangerous. So many representations of it have been "whimsical" and perfect. Harry Potter is never in danger from HIS magic - it's other mages that are dangerous.

I believe that this is more complex (and actually more like real world occult belief). Yes, they have powers, but they also have challenges that other mortals don't face. They aren't equals to normal men - and to treat them that way would be a grave injustice to normal men.

But of course - we all assume that "we" would be the mage because we're free to choose it in a video game. But were this place real - there is every chance that we would all be born normal. You can't learn magic in Dragon Age - you're either born with it, or you're not.

So... imagine how you might feel if the school bully had magic, or the neighbor you didn't get along with had magic, or an ex-convict living on your block had magic.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 mars 2011 - 03:31 .

[Beaynid]

lx_theo wrote...

Valus wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Blatant oppression and tyranny doesn't do it for you?

I found no evidence to back Blatant opression and/or tyranny up. Examples?

- The knight-commander running the city for years, taking away any chance of it running itself.
- Disregard at people in positions of power executing such plans like the "tranquil solution"
-Meredith admitting herself that although its essentially tyranny, she
doesn't want to call it that because she doesn't know another way.
- The desperation of all the Mages
-When you speak to Mages that were at other Circle's or weren't in it
before, they often remark about how much worse it is, or how that its
everything they feared
- Ander's friend being made tranquil as an example
- How rare it was to come across a half decent templar like Thrask or Cullen (basically the only two)
- How the templars tried to take over the city guard

To name what I can remember off the top of my head. The point of the game is to make descisions very grey. If you come to believe the templars are in the right, then thats what the game has lead you to. I played it and felt more for the mages, only playing pro-templar to see the other ending and whatnot. There should be a split on opinions if the game was designed correctly.

the funny thing is that cullen starts out almost rabid against mages, until you do and say stuff that gets him to lighten up on them.  then he actually turns halfway decent.

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

People want to feel special, and magic has always made people feel like they can be unique and powerful. I understand why some people balk at the idea that magic can also be dangerous. So many representations of it have been "whimsical" and perfect. Harry Potter is never in danger from HIS magic - it's other mages that are dangerous.

I believe that this is more complex (and actually more like real world occult belief). Yes, they have powers, but they also have challenges that other mortals don't face. They aren't equals to normal men - and to treat them that way would be a grave injustice to normal men.

But of course - we all assume that "we" would be the mage because we're free to choose it in a video game. But were this place real - there is every chance that we would all be born normal. You can't learn magic in Dragon Age - you're either born with it, or you're not.

So... imagine how you might feel if the school bully had magic, or the neighbor you didn't get along with had magic, or an ex-convict living on your block had magic.

Quite a good point actually - would probably be an interesting thread, to ask people for honest opinions on what they, as persons, not as hawke, would do, born into thedas with and without magic.

[Frybread76]

I think Bioware just wanted to make the decision between the Templars and Circle as hard as possible.  Otherwise, without every other mage going maleficar, most people would choose to side with the Circle.

[Vuokseniska]

uhmmm didn't meridith use the initiation rite on the templars that turned one of them into an abomination?

[Pandaman102]

Vuokseniska wrote...

uhmmm didn't meridith use the initiation rite on the templars that turned one of them into an abomination?

No. The initiates were being lured by a blood mage in the brothel. The initiation was a false rumor.

[speedy111280]

I think the problem in this discussion is that OP seems to be looking at it from an outsider POV. The game's storyline is done the way it is to give ample reason for a player to RP Hawke as going either way. Personally I think the whole system of the Circle and Templars is broken and needs to change, I have since DA:O but I have RP'd Hawke to go both ways. I've RP'd a Hawke who was turned against mages because of what happens to Leandra to the point that she convinced her mage sister to to help annul the Circle but I've also RP'd a Hawke who can't stand anyone telling her that her sister needs to be locked away from her family simply because she can do magic and consistently sided with the mages for that exact reason and no amount of blood mages would change her mind.

The whole intent of the story is to give you the ability to RP Hawke to go either way and that generally means there is going to be more evidence given for the Templars because at minimum Hawke's father and sister were/are mages and Hawke can even be a mage. Since you are playing the game as Hawke there is a built in sympathy for the mages because of the family connection unless you want to RP Hawke as hating the entire Hawke family, and/or him/herself, so the writers gave us more evidence of mages going bad to overcome what is for Hawke considered to be a built in sympathy.

[Camenae]

I agree that there is very little CONCRETE evidence in the game that Templars are oppressing the Mages. Almost all of it is hearsay. Mages like Grace (Decimus' girlfriend in Act of Mercy) say how bad it is in the Circle, but they are hardly credible. Your own sister, Bethany, writes and tells you that it's not so bad in the Circle. Although the Templars might have censored her letters, your mother also visits Bethany and says she seems happy enough. Even Knight-Commander Meredith, who is supposed to be the crazy one, shot down Ser Alrik's "Tranquil Solution." I also think this was a rather distasteful invocation of the Holocaust.

Analysis of evidence of Templar oppression:
- Karl being made Tranquil - Anders explicitly refuses to say why Karl was made Tranquil (party banter with Fenris), which makes me suspect that Karl's not entirely innocent, otherwise why would he miss this chance to convince Hawke? Instead, Anders says it doesn't matter, that making someone Tranquil is always wrong. I disagree. I think the case-by-case reason is very relevant.
- Ser Varnell helping Sister Petrice frame the Qunari. This is irrelevant to the conflict with the Mages. Probably meant to turn us against the Templars, but one established case of police brutality or corruption doesn't make me want to abolish the entire police department.
- Ser Karras outside the cave in Act of Mercy wanting to kill all the apostates. Even he is partly right: the mages in the cave DID use blood magic. Again, like Ser Alrik and Ser Varnell, this guy seems to be one of the exceptions compared to decent Templars like Thrask, Cullen, Keran (the recruit you save from maleficars), your brother Carver, and the female Templar in "The Last Holdouts."
- Ser Alrik in Anders' Act II companion quest. Isn't it ironic that ANDERS was the one who could end up killing the girl mage, and not Ser Alrik the embodiment of evil?
- Ser Metting in the Act III quest, "The Last Holdouts," wanting to kill all the apostate mages and their families. But again, you see a moderate-minded Templar, the female lieutenant who's with him, speak up and say he's wrong.
- Meredith admitting that her treatment of mages is harsh. This is one of the very few pieces of "admissible" evidence, as it is an admission by a party opponent. Which leads me to an aside: Grand Cleric Elthina didn't deserve to die, but it was utterly irresponsible for her to not step in. The Templars are the military branch of the Chantry, therefore the Knight-Commander of the templars in a given city should be under the authority of that city's grand cleric. She LET Meredith go on for years, when she was, practically and morally, Meredith's boss. Those who are not dangerous blood mages probably just wanted to Templars to have some accountability as well rather than the Templars being able to do whatever they pleased. The Grand Cleric was in the position to give that to the Mages and she didn't.

TL,DR:
I see very little evidence of UNPROVOKED harsh treatment of Mages by the Templars. For the most part, the Templars are responding to concrete and substantial danger that Mages pose. Sure, most of the mages say they are oppressed, but you have to take all that with a grain of salt.

[Svest]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry to the people who are trying to apply real world thoughts to this topic. Mages in this game aren't like Harry Potter mages. Even in Harry Potter - Harry believes magic to be perfect and the answers to all his problems, until he "grows up" and realizes that it's actually the cause of all his problems as well. But that's not the point.

The closest thing we have in the real world is someone with a mental disorder. Schizophrenia would be most likely the best description. Yes, they are born with powers that people grow enthralled with (oohhh, I can cast fireballs), but in Dragon Age it comes at a terrible price. Real forces are always looking to corrupt them from the moment they first show signs of magic (Conner) to the when they're Senior Enchanters (Uldred) and even First Enchanters (Orsino - but he's poorly written).

If you feel that these people are treated unjustly - then you ought to want to free all those ever put away into an insane asylum (and if you do, you're wasting time on fantasy games - you should be trying to remove insane patients from hospitals right now).

People in mental hospitals are dangerous enough - having voices telling them to do things, now give them a flamethrower - some liquid nitrogen - a tesla coil - and some psychotropic drugs (for Horror, Sleep, etc.) and you've got wildly dangerous individuals.

I think people trivialize the dangers of the spirits of the Fade - but we've only EVER seen one do anything good. ((Two if you count Valor from Origins)). Wynne takes in a spirit of Faith - she fears it, and worries incessantly about being corrupted. She even believes she may be an abomination.

They are Rage - personified. Pride - personified. They're ARE black and white. They are all or nothing. All consuming - and all encompassing.

The problem is that its actually not fair to compare the circle to a mental institution.  The people in a mental institution have either admitted themselves, been admitted by their guardian, or committed an act that showed them to be a danger to society and were admitted by court order.  You are NOT automatically locked in a mental institution for being schizophrenic (or any other mental disorder).  You ARE automatically locked in the circle just for being a mage.

When people feel oppressed there is no end to the lengths that they will go to in order to gain their freedom.  It can easily be argued that the circle in its current form actually causes more abominations than it prevents.  In fact every abomination I can think of with one exception (Keeper Merithari) can be traced back to fear of or fighting against the circle/templars.  Conner became an abomination (of sorts) because his mother was afraid to lose him to the circle and so he didn't get proper training.  Uldred wanted freedom and turned to a demon to get it.  As did pretty much all of the abominations in DA2, they wanted freedom or in the end simply not to be murdered. 

Imagine if you were locked away as a child because society feared you.  You had done nothing wrong, but you were locked away because it is possible that some day you might become a danger.  Never again allowed to see your family or friends or practically anyone on the outside.  Would it really be unreasonable for you to become angry at your captors and hate them or even society in general?  Wouldn't it be normal for you to view them as evil?  Wouldn't you want to rebel?  Now imagine these same "evil" oppressors are the ones telling you that blood magic is terrible and forbidden.  Would you actually believe them?  Even though it turns out they are right about blood magic I certainly wouldn't take a templar's word for it.  Even if you know blood magic is evil you have to wonder if it is not the lesser of 2 evils if the other option is being a prisoner for the rest of your life.  This is just from a "normal" circle.  Now imagine adding in the additional oppression from Meredith's paranoia.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be regulations and restrictions on magic and mages.  When children are discovered to be mages they should probably be taken to the circle to receive proper training on resisting demons and such.  However they shouldn't be completely removed from their families to prevent what happened with Conner.  To use your example from Harry Potter as far as children would be concerned the circle would be like Hogwarts, a boarding school where they learned magic. 

I would even go as far to say it would be fine to ban the use of magic for all mages when outside the circle.  if you want to practice magic go to the circle to do it.  If you want to live a normal life you can do so after you have been trained on how to resist demons.  Those who keep practicing magic outside the circle could then be locked away by the templars.  In this way the circle could function much like your example of a mental institution. 

I could go crazy tomorrow and shoot a dozen people.  Should I be locked away because I was born with a trigger finger?

[LobselVith8]

Camenae wrote...

I agree that there is very little CONCRETE evidence in the game that Templars are oppressing the Mages. Almost all of it is hearsay.

I respectfully disagree. Alim telling Hawke that Ser Kerras comes into his room late at night and threatening to make him tranquil if he tells anyone seems quite unprovoked to me.

Camenae wrote...

Mages like Grace (Decimus' girlfriend in Act of Mercy) say how bad it is in the Circle, but they are hardly credible. Your own sister, Bethany, writes and tells you that it's not so bad in the Circle.

She also mentions she avoids certain templars, so she clearly is looking to avoid the fate of mages like Alim and the mages who had the misfortune to encounter Ser Alrik. If you side with the mages, as she clearly did when she asks Hawke not to make her choose between her people and her family, she says they'll show the world that the mages don't need to be locked up.

Camenae wrote...

Although the Templars might have censored her letters, your mother also visits Bethany and says she seems happy enough. Even Knight-Commander Meredith, who is supposed to be the crazy one, shot down Ser Alrik's "Tranquil Solution." I also think this was a rather distasteful invocation of the Holocaust.

Meredith orders an act of genocide for the actions of a man standing right in front her.

Camenae wrote...

Analysis of evidence of Templar oppression:
- Karl being made Tranquil - Anders explicitly refuses to say why Karl was made Tranquil (party banter with Fenris), which makes me suspect that Karl's not entirely innocent, otherwise why would he miss this chance to convince Hawke? Instead, Anders says it doesn't matter, that making someone Tranquil is always wrong. I disagree. I think the case-by-case reason is very relevant.

Karl is a Harrowed mage. Making him tranquil when he passed his Harrowing is illegal.

Camenae wrote...

- Ser Varnell helping Sister Petrice frame the Qunari. This is irrelevant to the conflict with the Mages. Probably meant to turn us against the Templars, but one established case of police brutality or corruption doesn't make me want to abolish the entire police department.

Hawke does comment that "Forcing mages into servitude isn't going to prevent the rise of another Imperium" if he disagrees with the Chantry controlled Circle. He can also reference it as slavery, as do other characters. Clearly, we have the right to see the Chantry controlled Circles as oppressive. Even Varric comments on the Gallows as an oppressive place.

Camenae wrote...

- Ser Karras outside the cave in Act of Mercy wanting to kill all the apostates. Even he is partly right: the mages in the cave DID use blood magic. Again, like Ser Alrik and Ser Varnell, this guy seems to be one of the exceptions compared to decent Templars like Thrask, Cullen, Keran (the recruit you save from maleficars), your brother Carver, and the female Templar in "The Last Holdouts."

He also rapes a mage unless you kill him, so the accusations about templars committing rape and torture aren't far fetched when we see multiple characters capable of it. We also can arrive at the Dalish camp and learn that the templars tortured a member of the Dalish, and are willing to murder Dalish hunters.

Camenae wrote...

- Ser Alrik in Anders' Act II companion quest. Isn't it ironic that ANDERS was the one who could end up killing the girl mage, and not Ser Alrik the embodiment of evil?

Because Alrik wanted to make her tranquil and rape her at his leisure.

Camenae wrote...

I see very little evidence of UNPROVOKED harsh treatment of Mages by the Templars. For the most part, the Templars are responding to concrete and substantial danger that Mages pose. Sure, most of the mages say they are oppressed, but you have to take all that with a grain of salt.

I think the rape and the torture are sufficient examples that we should take it seriously, actually.

[cralexns]

Honestly, I don't see the hard choice here - which suggests Bioware did their job rather well.

Honestly when the time came where Orsino+Meredith forced me to take a side, it was a hard choice and I wasn't totally convinced of anything.

Even long after losing Bethany in the Deep Roads I kept feeling loyalty towards her and by extension the mages however Meredith (even if it was after I decided to back  the Templars) reminded me what happend to Hawke's mother and it really wasn't a problem after that point.

It wasn't far into the last act before I was dead set on eliminating all mages no matter what Merril or Anders thought about it and the only hesitation I had when killing Anders was my dissapointment in not being able to force him to help me do it.

Having said all that, eventually it turned out to be an easy choice but I most definitely saw the hard choice before coming to that point but I wouldn't say that means Bioware did any less of a good job with the game.

All those malificar throwing blood magic at me at every turn didn't faze me one bit, those were minor occurances and a minority of mages in the wrong but after the incident with Hawke's mother and being reminded of it later in the game.. You could say that the issue turned personal for my Hawke.

[Camenae]

LobselVith8,

(I don't want to quote the entire post and make this reply unreasonably long)
I see what you're saying, I do. That being said, I think all that proves is that a few Templars, perhaps even many, are way overstepping their boundaries, not all. It is the same argument that Mages use: that they should not all be painted with the same brush for the actions of a few. I agree with this argument, and I believe it applies equally to both sides.

Everything you mention is an argument for adding procedures for accountability for the Templar order, and not for abolishing the Order altogether. Just as I don't believe every mage should be presumed to be blood mages, I also do not believe that one should assume that every Templar is an evil torturer and rapist.

Mages should not be allowed to run free "like everyone else" because they are NOT like everyone else. They have power and can be possessed by demons like no one else can. Watching over the mages is different from oppression of the elves, who are viewed as second-class citizens for, as far as I can tell, just being a different race and having aesthetic and cultural differences. Just look what happens when the Templars are allowed to use THEIR power however they see fit. Would you not agree that BOTH sides need some accountability?

Meredith is a bad leader and made the Templars look bad. Orsino also did NOTHING to convince me that mages don't have dangerous tendencies. The Grand Cleric, as the next link in the chain of command for both of them, was irresponsible in not taking action. Why not tell the Divine that Kirkwall needs to appoint another knight-commander? Or offer mages sanctuary in the Chantry (I expect Anders would be a lot less willing to blow up the Chantry if she did that)? Or send the Kirkwall mages to the Ferelden circle until the ****storm blows over? She is NOT as powerless as she tried to tell me she was. No one who can tell Meredith to "be a good girl" is that helpless.

[dcvdg]

Considering in my game my sister Bethany was a mage in the Circle, a model and exemplary mage from all accounts and not a Blood Mage, is suddenly sentenced to die by the Rite of Annulment for doing absolutely nothing wrong (and everything right!), was too much injustice for me. I *had* to side with her when Meredith invoked the Rite. Up until then, I had tried to play peacemaker between the two factions, telling Meredith she needed to stop goading/oppressing the mages, and yet sick and tired of the stupid mages that continually turned to Blood Magic which only proved her right time and again. However, Bethany *was* an innocent being killed for what someone else had done. I could not let that occur, no matter how much I believed by this time that the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall did need a thorough cleaning.

Keep in mind, though, that several times during the game that you are told/can find out that the Veil to the Fade around Kirkwall is very thin. Thus, it is exceptionally easy for Demons to cross the Veil (and mages the other way), which might also explain the increased presence/numbers of Blood mages. The stress, combined with a continuous assault by Demons means it probably takes a more exceptionally strong will for a mage to resist. I'm not using it as an excuse, but it is probably a reason for a lot of what is going on in the Circle.

[Valus]

Oh, really cool posts while I was away. Maybe I should stop posting since the maturity level of the debate seems to escalate the less I add to it

@kasseev

While I totally agree that the gameworld as a whole, not to mention Hawke's life, sets up plenty of incentive to side with the mages I am not sure that counts as evidence. I agree that any legal analysis would have to eventually focus on whether or not what Meredith did was actually legal or justified, that is actually what we were just getting to when the thread died out last night. I think that is pretty important even though it does deviate a little OT, kind of, not really though since it does still have to do with the evidence put forth at the end of the game. I think we can only assume with what little info we have on the rite that it is within her rights to do so after the Grand cleric was assasinated. Whether or not it was justified is obviously in dispute

Ehh, I get what you mean by stating there are just as many non mage threats but I'm not sure that applies here. What I am referring to is the overwhelming majority of mages that are hostile and/or practicing illegal activities. I was trying to come up with the total number, end game, of mages that actually weren't doing anything wrong by chantry definition...it isn't many. I think the dude I turn in the 'herbalist's tasks' quest to was clean as well as the 3 kids groveling for mercy right before you kill orsino, I'm sure there are more but not very many. If we are working off of only what we know we see mountains of bloodmages/apostates/runaways throughout the game and very very few clean mages.

Am I incorporating what a templar says as evidence? Trying not to but it still applies, it's testimonial evidence just like what a mage states. I'm looking for concrete indisputable physical evidence however. Ander's buddy being made tranquil is a fine example of such.

I.E
Templar telling me mages or resorting to blood magic = not good enough
Seeing scores of mages resorting to blood magic firsthand = good enough

[LobselVith8]

Camenae, the problem is that mages want to be free, as we can see from the dual endings of DA2. You can't restrict the rights of people for a thousand years and expect no fallout. The Champion is either a hero to the mages, or a villain who supported oppression, but in both cases they are inspired to rise up and free themselves from the Chantry because Hawke showed them that the templars can be defied. The Circles are already free. Even the templars rebelled against the Chantry, while the Seekers apparently split, too, to hunt the mages (based on what Varric says to Cassandra).

[Svest]

Valus wrote...

Ehh, I get what you mean by stating there are just as many non mage threats but I'm not sure that applies here. What I am referring to is the overwhelming majority of mages that are hostile and/or practicing illegal activities.

That's not eaxactly fair though.  By nature of the circle virtually all mages Hawke meets would have to be practicing illegal activities.  If they weren't they would be locked in their cell in the Gallows and Hawke would never get a chance to meet them.  There is no way of knowing how many good mages are in Kirkwall so you can't say that the majority are anything.

[Valus]

Svest wrote...

That's not eaxactly fair though.  By nature of the circle virtually all mages Hawke meets would have to be practicing illegal activities.  If they weren't they would be locked in their cell in the Gallows and Hawke would never get a chance to meet them.  There is no way of knowing how many good mages are in Kirkwall so you can't say that the majority are anything.

Fair point, but like I said this estimation is based upon only what we know for certain.  Even so, if this were the case why did the vast majority of mages we meet outside the circle have to be maleficar? There are fine examples of simple apostates and run aways but these are rare. These confrontations are usually the ones that let us build up evidence against the templar and allow the player to build a strong case against the Templar that isn't built solely on emotional ties. But like I said these are rare, A majority are simply confrontations with abominations.

[Valus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think people trivialize the dangers of the spirits of the Fade - but we've only EVER seen one do anything good. ((Two if you count Valor from Origins)). Wynne takes in a spirit of Faith - she fears it, and worries incessantly about being corrupted. She even believes she may be an abomination.

If you believe Merrill's definition of spirits in the fade then she was. Anders too.

[Svest]

Valus wrote...

Fair point, but like I said this estimation is based upon only what we know for certain.  Even so, if this were the case why did the vast majority of mages we meet outside the circle have to be maleficar? There are fine examples of simple apostates and run aways but these are rare. These confrontations are usually the ones that let us build up evidence against the templar and allow the player to build a strong case against the Templar that isn't built solely on emotional ties. But like I said these are rare, A majority are simply confrontations with abominations.

Why would it be surprising for outlaw mages to use outlawed magic?  If you are going to be hunted and killed or made tranquil (which is the same thing) by the templars for simply being outside the circle are you going to care about not using forbidden magic?  Or are you going to do everything in your power to fight against your hunters? 

The vast majority of abominations and maleficar you see in game are also mages who were backed into a corner by the templar.  They believed there was no other option than to turn to blood magic.  When you look at the blood magic in the game with the exception of one psychopath it is all directed at the templars.  These mages are not going out and threatening or harming citizens.  They are using it to fight against the templars (and Hawke when he involves himself in templar business).  You have to wonder if they would have resrted to blood magic if the templars had not backed them into a corner. 

I can guarantee that if I were a mage and locked up even in a normal circle I would want to try get free.  Then if I were cornered with no chance of escape and I knew the templars were going to either kill me or make me tranquil I would do anything in my power to take as many of those bastards with me as I could.  If that means blood magic then so be it.  This is what I see in many of the mages you meet in the game.

[Valus]

speedy111280 wrote...

I think the problem in this discussion is that OP seems to be looking at it from an outsider POV. The game's storyline is done the way it is to give ample reason for a player to RP Hawke as going either way. Personally I think the whole system of the Circle and Templars is broken and needs to change, I have since DA:O but I have RP'd Hawke to go both ways. I've RP'd a Hawke who was turned against mages because of what happens to Leandra to the point that she convinced her mage sister to to help annul the Circle but I've also RP'd a Hawke who can't stand anyone telling her that her sister needs to be locked away from her family simply because she can do magic and consistently sided with the mages for that exact reason and no amount of blood mages would change her mind.

The whole intent of the story is to give you the ability to RP Hawke to go either way and that generally means there is going to be more evidence given for the Templars because at minimum Hawke's father and sister were/are mages and Hawke can even be a mage. Since you are playing the game as Hawke there is a built in sympathy for the mages because of the family connection unless you want to RP Hawke as hating the entire Hawke family, and/or him/herself, so the writers gave us more evidence of mages going bad to overcome what is for Hawke considered to be a built in sympathy.

Sorry, I glossed over this post earlier, my bad.

Yes, I'm looking at this from an outsider's POV. Well, an outsider's POV privy to all the info that, say, Hawke would have end game along with whatever we all know to be cannon from the DA game world.

Of course Roleplaying would have its place here and any decision made has merit in some fashion, I'm not trying to say any choice is right or wrong. All I am saying is unlike in other big choices presented to us in the DA saga (Loghain) we are not presented with many cold hard facts to support the mages. You either believe that mages should not be treated the way they are and are willing to turn a blind eye to all the data you've been presented with that states the contrary along with the mountains of bloodmage corpses you've left in your wake or you do not.

I'm not saying either choice speaks to a flaw in the player. I am saying I think it speaks to a flaw in the design however. To offer up nothing but hearsay and emotional investment for one side and cold hard evidence for another doesn't really work for me, apparently it works for others. I was just wondering if this was intentional in design but getting a reply from a dev is sketchy at best. Gaider... :whistle:Gaider...

[Valus]

Svest wrote...

Why would it be surprising for outlaw mages to use outlawed magic?  If you are going to be hunted and killed or made tranquil (which is the same thing) by the templars for simply being outside the circle are you going to care about not using forbidden magic?  Or are you going to do everything in your power to fight against your hunters? 

The vast majority of abominations and maleficar you see in game are also mages who were backed into a corner by the templar.  They believed there was no other option than to turn to blood magic.  When you look at the blood magic in the game with the exception of one psychopath it is all directed at the templars.  These mages are not going out and threatening or harming citizens.  They are using it to fight against the templars (and Hawke when he involves himself in templar business).  You have to wonder if they would have resrted to blood magic if the templars had not backed them into a corner. 

I can guarantee that if I were a mage and locked up even in a normal circle I would want to try get free.  Then if I were cornered with no chance of escape and I knew the templars were going to either kill me or make me tranquil I would do anything in my power to take as many of those bastards with me as I could.  If that means blood magic then so be it.  This is what I see in many of the mages you meet in the game.

Well, I can't speak to why outlaw mages would use outlawed magic I suppose it would make sense to use whatever you had at your disposal. That being said they are still outlaws. They did something illegal to warrant being put into that situation to begin with thusly they are still criminals. I don't feel sorry for a bank robber who is forced into a firefight with police officers because said law enforcement 'forced' him into that situation and 'forced' him to escalate the level of his offense. The mage may never have even considered bloodmagic before being backed into a corner but the mage certainly did something illegal to warrant being put into that position in the first place therefor I can' exactly put the blame elsewhere for any actions they take.

[Svest]

Valus wrote...

Well, I can't speak to why outlaw mages would use outlawed magic I suppose it would make sense to use whatever you had at your disposal. That being said they are still outlaws. They did something illegal to warrant being put into that situation to begin with thusly they are still criminals. I don't feel sorry for a bank robber who is forced into a firefight with police officers because said law enforcement 'forced' him into that situation and 'forced' him to escalate the level of his offense. The mage may never have even considered bloodmagic before being backed into a corner but the mage certainly did something illegal to warrant being put into that position in the first place therefor I can' exactly put the blame elsewhere for any actions they take.

Here's another example of a bad analogy.  What did the mages do to be put in that situation to begin with besides being born?  They didn't go out and rob a bank or do anything to hurt anyone and yet they are still hunted.  What did Bethany do that was so bad that she had to be locked in the Gallows for the rest of her life?  Who was she a danger to? 

Would you blame a slave for killing his master and trying to escape?  How about killing the people sent to bring him back to slavery?  How is this different than what the templars do to mages?  Can you blame them for wanting their freedom too?  The mages are not criminals beyond the fact that their very existence is a crime.

[Svest]

double post

Modifié par Svest, 21 mars 2011 - 09:26 .