12 réponses à ce sujet

[Loup Blanc]

Modifié par JL81, 01 janvier 2014 - 04:37 .

[DarkNova50]

Actually, it is possible for Loghain to survive the Landsmeet, and for Alistair to become King anyway. In fact, during one of the conversations in Dragon Age 2, I think Alistair himself mentioned that Loghain was, unfortunately, still alive. Afterwards, Teagan mentioned the the Hero of Ferelden would be returning to Denerim soon. (This was default Hero of Ferelden background.)

This means that the Hero, Alistair and Loghain all survived, and Loghain or the Hero must have done the nasty with Morrigan. Which means that yes, the ritual does seem to be canon.

[AlexXIV]

JL81 wrote...

My apologies if this has been discussed already. Feel free to redirect me to appropriate thread.

This is based on a default playthrough without importing any save from DAO.

So in DA2, the Champion resurrects Flemeth on Sundermount. This means Flemeth effectively died in DAO.
This implies the Warden listened to Morrigan and actually killed (temporarily) the old witch. If he did, this obviously means Morrigan got the grimoire. Otherwise she would have not asked the Warden to kill her mother.

At the end of DA2, it is also mentioned the Warden has simply vanished (along with the Champion). This proves he did not die at the end of DAO. If he had died fighting the Arch Demon, it is fair to imagine this would have been well known and he would have been made a hero (see ceremony at the end of DAO if you did the ultimate
sacrifice).

Also Alistair is king in the default playthrough of DA2. This means, whether he or the Warden delivered the final blow to the Arch Demon, neither of them died. This implies Morrigan's Ritual DID occur.

Soyou'll tell me, maybe Loghain died and the Ritual didn't happen... well, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Alistair is king, doesn't that automatically mean he did NOT leave the party during the Landsmeet? If that is correct, then this implies Loghain was not spared at the Landsmeet. There was no way to spare Loghain and keep Alistair.

Sowe come full circle: since Alistair is King, Loghain did not survive the Landsmeet. This left only Alistair and the Warden to deliver the final blow. Both of them survived. Therefore the Ritual must have
occurred.

What do you think?

Default playthoughs are not canon. Also Hawke does not ressurrect Flemeth. We don't know exactly what it is about but obviously Flemeth is not limited to physical shells. Or at least not one. Whether the Warden killed her or not is left open, it wasn't a final death anyway. And who dies for good in Dragon Age anyway. Hardly anyone.

[Loup Blanc]

AlexXIV wrote...

Default playthoughs are not canon.

Without any word from the developers to say what is canon and what is not, I find it difficult to justify that the basic choices determined by the game makers for someone who hasn't played DAO are NOT canon. This is the closest to canon that you can get.

As for Flemeth... well sure it isn't spelled out for us. But I felt the whole ceremony thing really felt like a resurrection. She actually foretold that the Warden was going to kill her, and used Hawke. That's my take on this. That's also the most plausible explanation.

Modifié par JL81, 21 mars 2011 - 01:34 .

[Johnny20]

I also think Morrigan's Ritual is canon. Bioware just seems to keep nudging at that outcome.

[Brockololly]

The default Hero of Ferelden events of DAO that you can use for DA2 use the Human noble origin with the DR having been done since the Warden kills the Archdemon and lives and Alistair king. Its not possible for the Warden to kill the Archdemon without having done the Dark Ritual.

[AlexXIV]

JL81 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Default playthoughs are not canon.

Without any word from the developers to say what is canon and what is not, I find it difficult to justify that the basic choices determined by the game makers for someone who hasn't played DAO is NOT canon. This is the closest to canon that you can get.

Well canon would be if it is the same for everyone. For example Leliana survived. That's unchangable. But for example who is on the throne of Ferelden is optional. I didn't find evidence that Morrigan's baby is canon though. In my playthrough obviously it would be since I did the DR. I didn't try the default playthrough, but it is just like any save game import.

[TJPags]

JL81 wrote...

My apologies if this has been discussed already. Feel free to redirect me to appropriate thread.

This is based on a default playthrough without importing any save from DAO.

So in DA2, the Champion resurrects Flemeth on Sundermount. This means Flemeth effectively died in DAO.
This implies the Warden listened to Morrigan and actually killed (temporarily) the old witch. If he did, this obviously means Morrigan got the grimoire. Otherwise she would have not asked the Warden to kill her mother.

At the end of DA2, it is also mentioned the Warden has simply vanished (along with the Champion). This proves he did not die at the end of DAO. If he had died fighting the Arch Demon, it is fair to imagine this would have been well known and he would have been made a hero (see ceremony at the end of DAO if you did the ultimate
sacrifice).

Also Alistair is king in the default playthrough of DA2. This means, whether he or the Warden delivered the final blow to the Arch Demon, neither of them died. This implies Morrigan's Ritual DID occur.

So you'll tell me, maybe Loghain was made into a Grey Warden, and died giving the final blow... and the Ritual didn't happen... well, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Alistair is king, doesn't that automatically mean he did NOT leave the party during the Landsmeet? If that is correct, then this implies Loghain was not spared at the Landsmeet. There was no way to spare Loghain and keep Alistair.

Sowe come full circle: since Alistair is King, Loghain did not survive the Landsmeet. This left only Alistair and the Warden to deliver the final blow. Both of them survived. Therefore the Ritual must have
occurred.

What do you think?

This has been discussed in several threads, at different times, but there's not one place to direct you (plus, search is non-existant, so I couldn't direct you there anyway).  But you have several inccorect assumptions in here:

It mentions the Warden vanished at the end, but this doesn't always mean the Warden from Origins.  If there is a US import, then this must refer to the Orelsian Warden Commander who should have taken over in DAA.  Besides, not all DR Wardens vanish.  Mine, for instance, is Prince Consort of Ferelden and not planning to go anywhere.

You can make Alistair King, still recruit Loghain and have Loghain die killing the AD.  Alistair still leaves the party, but he will remain king if you marry him to Anora.  Not sure if he has to be hardened or unhardened for this.

But the biggest incorrect assumption is that there is only one default import.  There are 3.  One does the DR, one does the US, one recruits Loghain and has him die killing the AD.

Now, they may still make the DR canon, but they haven't yet.

[Loup Blanc]

Right. It actually escaped me there were several possible default starting points in DA2. Oh well, I guess that solves the problem.

But as DarkNova50 said, if all three possible Arch Demon killers are mentioned alive in DA2, can we still deduct the DR was canon? We'd have to fully play through all three default playthrus to verify. I dont feel the motivation to do that.

Modifié par JL81, 21 mars 2011 - 01:45 .

[M_arc]

Morrigan's ritual doesn't seem canon imo

It doesn't matter much how you played DA:O, there is always a plausible scenario for her to have conceived a child. You could have done it, Alistair could have, or else Loghain. Even in the case that you don't choose to do the ritual there is always the plausible scenario that she did it with Riordan. Everything in the game points to the scenario that this actually happened, hence it the most logical thing to do if you think about it.
The Ultimate Sacrifice scenario seems the only oddball out there.

Hmm Hawke resurrecting Flemeth by transporting a piece of her soul through the talisman, never thought about it that way. It's a plausible scenario of course, but also very risky for Flemeth. She could never have knew if you would actually delivered the talisman.

I'm a bit sceptical about Flemeth being the ultimate know-it-all, she clearly understands the bigger picture, but after the rescues Hawke she even openly admits not knowing if it was fate or chance.

[GamiSB]

Flemeth tells you that she transports part of herself to Kirkwall as a percausion. There is nothing that indicates killing her is canon.

The warden mentioned at the end of DA2 can reefer to either your warden or the DA:OA warden. It can also just as easily be written off as Leliana commenting that all the past heroes have died or vanished.

It's also not conclusive that either Alister or the warden performed the DR. The warden can still be alive in awakening and if you import that save Morrigan will say she doesn't know how you lived. Meaning it's possible for a warden to not complete the DR and still live since Morrigan tells you that you turned down the DR.

Bottom line, there is no canon. The devs made it clear that the default story is not any kind of official BW approved story, it's just the one you picked in starting DA2 and the story for that playthrough.

Modifié par GamiSB, 21 mars 2011 - 01:55 .

[TJPags]

JL81 wrote...

Right. It actually escaped me there were several possible default starting points in DA2. Oh well, I guess that solves the problem.

But as DarkNova50 said, if all three possible Arch Demon killers are mentioned alive in DA2, can we still deduct the DR was canon? We'd have to fully play through all three default playthrus to verify. I dont feel the motivation to do that.

They are not all alive in the same imports, though.

As example, in the US import, the Warden did the US, and is obviously dead.  Alistair is alive (not sure about Loghain in this one, but it's not related to the AD).

In the DR import, all could be alive, or Loghain could be dead (but not AD related).

In the third import, Loghain died killing the AD, so he is, obviously, dead.  Both the Warden and Alistair would be alive in this scenario, although I'm not sure what it says about their whereabouts (ie, Alistaie king or Grey Warden).
 
They would only all be alive IF you did the DR, recruited Loghain, and either married Alistair to Anora or sent Alistair off as a drunk.  Which would require a specific game import, not one of the defaults.

[AlexXIV]

I fear at this point the only thing we can deduct is that there may be alot of bugs and glitches still in the game.