73 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

One of the things I love most about what the writers have done with the DA universe is show that things aren't always black and white: the good guys can make the worst decisions, the bad guys can have redeeming qualities, and even when there's a solution to be found that can serve the greater good, the pride and folly of men can prevent that solution from ever being carried out.

But everybody has an opinion -- so what's yours?  Were you Meredith/Orsino/Cullen/Divine Justinia/Gregoir/Alistair or anyone else who may have a say in the destruction or reform of the Chantry and Circle, what would be your solution?

I'll start us out by saying that I'd propose that children who were discovered to possess magic would be taken from their parents and brought to the Circle for formal training the way they are now -- with the understanding that when they passed their Harrowing they would be released to live their lives independent of the Circle if they wished.  Their phylacteries would still be taken and Templars would stay on to hunt maleficar.  Any mages afraid of possession could be made Tranquil if they chose.  Mages could even be kept on a sort of "parole" system where the Templars check in on them in their new lives and check for signs of blood magic or demonic possession.

The bottom line for me is that mages are dangerous and it makes sense to fear their power, but I think it ought to go without saying that it helps no one to punish people for a crime that they MIGHT commit.  This, I think, is the real problem that the Chantry (and especially the Kirkwall Chantry) has.  Templars may as well hunt every warrior who walks the streets with a sword on their backs -- it's also a weapon that MIGHT be used against an innocent.

Agree? Disagree?  Have a better idea?  Want to destroy all mages or all templars?  Share, share!

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 21 mars 2011 - 03:06 .

[TexasToast712]

Simple fix would be the creation of a Chantry Internal Affairs that monitors the Templars for abuse to mages. I didnt want to start a mage rebellion because I believe Circles are necessary, I just wanted too make Meredith step down as she was to harsh and later turns out to be insane. I do believe, however, that annuling the Kirkwall circle was the right thing to do because 95% of the mages there were.....

1. Already a Blood mage

and

2. Too weak willed to resist possession by a demon or the use of Blood Magic.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 21 mars 2011 - 03:17 .

[T huffin and puffin]

There's clearly fault on both sides: Meredith reveals herself to be a lyrium idol crazed wench and Orsino resorts to blood magic for no apparent reason. Imprisonment and abuse of the mages just incited defiance and caused them to resort to darker forms of magic. There really is no cut-and-dry solution.

[BloodRaith]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Chantry Internal Affairs that monitors the Templars

I think this what the Seekers basically are.

[TexasToast712]

BloodRaith wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Chantry Internal Affairs that monitors the Templars

I think this what the Seekers basically are.

Yea well they suck at their job or they only feel the need to investigate after everything is in ruins. Maybe they truly didnt know what was going on in Kirkwall.

[Legbiter]

The worst zealots on both sides need to be killed and those in the middle will have to gag on the bloodshed before a new semi-workable social arrangement wrt magic can replace the existing one.

[Lithuasil]

The circles, only run by people with an intellectual level above "marbari", i.e not templars.

The circles as an institution make sense. And they have the ability to keep both the mages, and the mundane safe from the dangers of magic, and at the same time give the mages compensation for giving up parts of their freedom. Look at the interior of the Ferelden Circle. Living in such a place, and being kept safe from demons trying to eat your brains, is vastly superior to living in some mud hut village, let alone on the run.
Problem is in the execution - because the templars are made up from fanatic, religious retards, rather then pro-mage mundane, or mages relatives, for instance. Make the circles a sanctum, rather then a prison, remove the live threatening bs (Harrowing, tranquility, annulment) and only allow sane persons into the templars. Add in weekly family visits, and fieldtrips/shopping tours into town, even under templar supervision, blow up a few more chantries for good measure, and by the end of the week, 95% of all apostates will have turned themselves in to the nearest circle.

[TexasToast712]

Lithuasil wrote...

The circles, only run by people with an intellectual level above "marbari", i.e not templars.

I see you use this comment about Templars alot. Any proof to back up this claim, mage fan? You also forget that mabari are pretty damn smart.

[Pileyourbodies]

Templars all the way. Mages are all too easily corrupted.

[frylock23]

I think that the Circle and the templars serve a purpose. It makes sense to consolidate mage training and require it for all mage-born children. It also makes sense to have a force comprised of those who are specifically trained to deal with mages gone bad. It serves no purpose to imprison mageborns for life and it serves even less to set the templars over them as jailers.

I think that since magic is supposed to serve man, and the Chantry is also supposed to serve man that the Circle should be made part of the Chantry as a branch subordinate to the the regular priests but co-equal with the templars. The Chantry should harness and accept the beneficial uses of magic as being of great service to man. By keeping the mages permanently subordinate to the regular priesthood, the mages should never be able to take control of the Chantry the way they have in Tevinter where magic very definitely rules over man in all but strict wording. By giving the mages equal status to templars, you remove the current situation that allows for very definite abuses of power. And, perhaps in world where magic was accepted and not feared simply for being, there would be less temptation to grab at any promise of power in teh face of powerlessness.

[Big I]

Free the mages but keep the templars as mage cops.

[TJPags]

Not an easy solution.

The Circle, in my opinion, is necessary.  It's a place where mages can be trained, can be around others like themselves, can get support.  They can be tested, not only for magical aptitude, but for resistance to blood magic and demons.  Yes, there absolutely should be a Harrowing.  Mages have too much power, there is too much danger, not to make sure they can't resist temptation to do things the easy way.

But - there is a point where the supervision can, I think, be lessened.  It's not age-based.  It's maturity based.  For some mages, maybe its 18.  For others, maybe 25.  For some, maybe never.  But I'd say, at some point, a mage can be assigned to a mentor (yes, I know there's something like this now.  I mean something slightly different).  The mentor would be, not a teacher, but an advisor.

The mentor/advisor would assist in the mages studies and activities, and help their training.  The mage would go with the mentor when they travelled, could even travel FOR the mentor.  In other words, go to Denerim and pick up some book from someone for me.  These trips would be controlled, obviously - maybe accompanied by a Templar at first, and would be tests.  As the mage shows their entitled to more freedom and responsibility, they could get it.  Travel without a Templar, for instance.

Eventually, a mage would be allowed to leave on their own, when and as they wanted.  Maybe even to live away from the Circle.  However, there would still be a parole/probation type system.  For instance, a mage who lives inor near, say, Redcliffe, would have to check in at the Chantry every now and then.  How often could depend on a lot of factors.  The mage would have to alert the local Chantry if they were going to travel for any extended time, and maybe have to register with Chantries they pass as they travel.

I'd also say they have to report to the nearest Tower every so often, for a review.  Maybe every 5 or 7 years or something.  Just to report in, be intereviewed about what they do, etc.  So long as there are no problems, no rules broken, this can continue.  If there are poblems, broken rules, questionable activities, questionable research, etc, then all this changes.

[TexasToast712]

TJPags wrote...

Not an easy solution.

The Circle, in my opinion, is necessary.  It's a place where mages can be trained, can be around others like themselves, can get support.  They can be tested, not only for magical aptitude, but for resistance to blood magic and demons.  Yes, there absolutely should be a Harrowing.  Mages have too much power, there is too much danger, not to make sure they can't resist temptation to do things the easy way.

But - there is a point where the supervision can, I think, be lessened.  It's not age-based.  It's maturity based.  For some mages, maybe its 18.  For others, maybe 25.  For some, maybe never.  But I'd say, at some point, a mage can be assigned to a mentor (yes, I know there's something like this now.  I mean something slightly different).  The mentor would be, not a teacher, but an advisor.

The mentor/advisor would assist in the mages studies and activities, and help their training.  The mage would go with the mentor when they travelled, could even travel FOR the mentor.  In other words, go to Denerim and pick up some book from someone for me.  These trips would be controlled, obviously - maybe accompanied by a Templar at first, and would be tests.  As the mage shows their entitled to more freedom and responsibility, they could get it.  Travel without a Templar, for instance.

Eventually, a mage would be allowed to leave on their own, when and as they wanted.  Maybe even to live away from the Circle.  However, there would still be a parole/probation type system.  For instance, a mage who lives inor near, say, Redcliffe, would have to check in at the Chantry every now and then.  How often could depend on a lot of factors.  The mage would have to alert the local Chantry if they were going to travel for any extended time, and maybe have to register with Chantries they pass as they travel.

I'd also say they have to report to the nearest Tower every so often, for a review.  Maybe every 5 or 7 years or something.  Just to report in, be intereviewed about what they do, etc.  So long as there are no problems, no rules broken, this can continue.  If there are poblems, broken rules, questionable activities, questionable research, etc, then all this changes.

I like this. They should also be able to do things like have family visits or even have children without them being swept away.

[Lithuasil]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The circles, only run by people with an intellectual level above "marbari", i.e not templars.

I see you use this comment about Templars alot. Any proof to back up this claim, mage fan? You also forget that mabari are pretty damn smart.

I know they are, that's why I use the comparison - unlike some flowery metaphor, this comment has the advantage of being solid fact .
And see, for one I'd recite as proof that with the Exception of Carver and possibly Emeric (neither of which are particularly good at templaring), there isn't a single templar we see, that isn't completely, irredeemably retarded. 

[Valus]

The Tranquil Solution certainly had its merits. I'd argue against rites of annulement in every circle as that would probably just lead to far more rebellions but seeing as how, at the end of the game, every circle rebels anyhow the rite wouldn't hurt anything.

Modifié par Valus, 21 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[Phantom.Brave10]

BloodRaith wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Chantry Internal Affairs that monitors the Templars

I think this what the Seekers basically are.

Actually, that IS what the seekers are.
You find a codex entry in Darktown that says the purpose of the Seekers. It details that someone asked who would monitor the templars were something to go wrong. The entry is an answer to that which says the history of the seekers and what they actually do.

[Pandaman102]

Does it matter what the solution is? Regardless of who you support the mages still get wiped out, the rebellion still spreads, Orsino still turns to blood magic, and Meredith still goes bat**** insane. You'll always be wrong regardless of what you choose, the only difference being if you choose the hypocritical option of supporting Templars all the way you get to become Viscount...

Even though the nobility probably hate the Templars after three years of tyranny and wouldn't support any open allies of Templars.

[TexasToast712]

mrsph wrote...
 When a mage goes crazy he levels entire villages.

No, he just nukes a Chantry............................too soon?

Modifié par TexasToast712, 21 mars 2011 - 03:49 .

[TexasToast712]

Lithuasil wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The circles, only run by people with an intellectual level above "marbari", i.e not templars.

I see you use this comment about Templars alot. Any proof to back up this claim, mage fan? You also forget that mabari are pretty damn smart.

I know they are, that's why I use the comparison - unlike some flowery metaphor, this comment has the advantage of being solid fact .
And see, for one I'd recite as proof that with the Exception of Carver and possibly Emeric (neither of which are particularly good at templaring), there isn't a single templar we see, that isn't completely, irredeemably retarded. 

Cullen redeems himself pretty nicely when you storm the Gallows with the templars and choose to spare the surrendered mages. That point in the game is what made me go from hating him to actually feeling kinship with him. Gregoir wasnt too bad of a fellow either.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 21 mars 2011 - 03:49 .

[TJPags]

TexasToast712 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Not an easy solution.

The Circle, in my opinion, is necessary.  It's a place where mages can be trained, can be around others like themselves, can get support.  They can be tested, not only for magical aptitude, but for resistance to blood magic and demons.  Yes, there absolutely should be a Harrowing.  Mages have too much power, there is too much danger, not to make sure they can't resist temptation to do things the easy way.

But - there is a point where the supervision can, I think, be lessened.  It's not age-based.  It's maturity based.  For some mages, maybe its 18.  For others, maybe 25.  For some, maybe never.  But I'd say, at some point, a mage can be assigned to a mentor (yes, I know there's something like this now.  I mean something slightly different).  The mentor would be, not a teacher, but an advisor.

The mentor/advisor would assist in the mages studies and activities, and help their training.  The mage would go with the mentor when they travelled, could even travel FOR the mentor.  In other words, go to Denerim and pick up some book from someone for me.  These trips would be controlled, obviously - maybe accompanied by a Templar at first, and would be tests.  As the mage shows their entitled to more freedom and responsibility, they could get it.  Travel without a Templar, for instance.

Eventually, a mage would be allowed to leave on their own, when and as they wanted.  Maybe even to live away from the Circle.  However, there would still be a parole/probation type system.  For instance, a mage who lives inor near, say, Redcliffe, would have to check in at the Chantry every now and then.  How often could depend on a lot of factors.  The mage would have to alert the local Chantry if they were going to travel for any extended time, and maybe have to register with Chantries they pass as they travel.

I'd also say they have to report to the nearest Tower every so often, for a review.  Maybe every 5 or 7 years or something.  Just to report in, be intereviewed about what they do, etc.  So long as there are no problems, no rules broken, this can continue.  If there are poblems, broken rules, questionable activities, questionable research, etc, then all this changes.

I like this. They should also be able to do things like have family visits or even have children without them being swept away.

Family visits, sure, within reason.  Not every weekend or anything, and not once every 10 years.  Maybe once a year, on the mages birthday, at first, until they pass their Harrowing.  Then, sure, more often.

As to having children - touchy, because it involves a relationship.  I'd think someone would need to approve the relationship, if we were going to talk marriage.  In other words, make sure the other prent is not going to intentionally lead the mage astray.  I know that sounds harsh, but think about someone getting an emotional hook into an otherwise fine, but perhaps naive, mage . . . could be trouble.

[Medhia Nox]

Major reforms - The Circle and the Templars need to remain, but the Knight-Commander idea needs to be thought out better.

The First Enchanter needs more power - perhaps he is officially sanctioned by the state and he answers to the leader of the country the Circle is in - along with the Knight Commander. Add a third party - an educated man chosen specifically for the position - potentially from the noble caste (to provide a more secular, country-minded position) - who arbitrates between Templars and Mages.

Circles should have towns formed outside of them. The families of mages can live in these towns and mages are free to visit them. These towns could offer untold boons to their nations.

The Rite of Annulment should still exist - however, not until a new rite is evoked. The Rite of Containment (which is essentially what Greagor evoked). The Rite of Containment means that the Circle Tower becomes closed after becoming compromised. All Circle mages outside the tower will remain outside - while nobody (not even visiting family) will be able to escape the tower.

The Harrowing must remain as must Tranquility. I'm sorry, but the mages condone Tranquility. Otherwise - the human kingdoms would not have ANY enchanters. Even Owain volunteered for Tranquility. However - it must only be used against mages who fail their Harrowing (which is actually the law - Kirkwall abuses it)

=====

Concerning the Mabari - they actually abandoned the Tevinter Imperium because of slavery. A race of dogs - decided en mass - to abandon a nation on moral grounds.

[Lithuasil]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Cullen redeems himself pretty nicely when you storm the Gallows with the templars and choose to spare the surrendered mages. That point in the game is what made me go from hating him to actually feeling kinship with him. Gregoir wasnt too bad of a fellow either.

The guy who wanted to hang me for doing as I'm told, and the guy who walked in on me kneedeep in corpses with both my wrists open and several holes in my belly, asking me if I planned to join forces with the bloodmages?
We can argue if Cullen is honorable or just a massive coward in the end, but I didn't argue the templars morals, just their intellect. And neither of those specimen are useful in convincing me otherwise

Medhia Nox wrote...
 

The Harrowing must remain as must Tranquility. I'm sorry, but the mages condone Tranquility. Otherwise - the human kingdoms would not have ANY enchanters. Even Owain volunteered for Tranquility. However - it must only be used against mages who fail their Harrowing (which is actually the law - Kirkwall abuses it)

Making volunteers tranquil is ok - what's the point of the harrowing though? As far as I know, the entire point of the harrowing is to prove you resist the demons temptation, by exposing you to that very threat. (And greatly endangering the lives of many that are too weak to ever attract demonic attention in the process).

Modifié par Lithuasil, 21 mars 2011 - 03:56 .