73 réponses à ce sujet

[TexasToast712]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Major reforms - The Circle and the Templars need to remain, but the Knight-Commander idea needs to be thought out better.

The First Enchanter needs more power - perhaps he is officially sanctioned by the state and he answers to the leader of the country the Circle is in - along with the Knight Commander. Add a third party - an educated man chosen specifically for the position - potentially from the noble caste (to provide a more secular, country-minded position) - who arbitrates between Templars and Mages.

Circles should have towns formed outside of them. The families of mages can live in these towns and mages are free to visit them. These towns could offer untold boons to their nations.

The Rite of Annulment should still exist - however, not until a new rite is evoked. The Rite of Containment (which is essentially what Greagor evoked). The Rite of Containment means that the Circle Tower becomes closed after becoming compromised. All Circle mages outside the tower will remain outside - while nobody (not even visiting family) will be able to escape the tower.

The Harrowing must remain as must Tranquility. I'm sorry, but the mages condone Tranquility. Otherwise - the human kingdoms would not have ANY enchanters. Even Owain volunteered for Tranquility. However - it must only be used against mages who fail their Harrowing (which is actually the law - Kirkwall abuses it)

=====

Concerning the Mabari - they actually abandoned the Tevinter Imperium because of slavery. A race of dogs - decided en mass - to abandon a nation on moral grounds.

I aprrove of this as well. Build a compund around the Circles for their families to be.

[TJPags]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Major reforms - The Circle and the Templars need to remain, but the Knight-Commander idea needs to be thought out better.

The First Enchanter needs more power - perhaps he is officially sanctioned by the state and he answers to the leader of the country the Circle is in - along with the Knight Commander. Add a third party - an educated man chosen specifically for the position - potentially from the noble caste (to provide a more secular, country-minded position) - who arbitrates between Templars and Mages.

Circles should have towns formed outside of them. The families of mages can live in these towns and mages are free to visit them. These towns could offer untold boons to their nations.

The Rite of Annulment should still exist - however, not until a new rite is evoked. The Rite of Containment (which is essentially what Greagor evoked). The Rite of Containment means that the Circle Tower becomes closed after becoming compromised. All Circle mages outside the tower will remain outside - while nobody (not even visiting family) will be able to escape the tower.

The Harrowing must remain as must Tranquility. I'm sorry, but the mages condone Tranquility. Otherwise - the human kingdoms would not have ANY enchanters. Even Owain volunteered for Tranquility. However - it must only be used against mages who fail their Harrowing (which is actually the law - Kirkwall abuses it)

=====

Concerning the Mabari - they actually abandoned the Tevinter Imperium because of slavery. A race of dogs - decided en mass - to abandon a nation on moral grounds.

My only issue with towns of mage families outside Circles is that, as we see in Kirkwall, they're not all in Towers in the middle of nowhere.  It's not always practical.  However, if a mage gets assigned to, say, the Kirkwall Circle and his family wants to move there, I'm fine wih it.  I still don't want to see visits every weekend, though.

Also, as far as the First Ecnahter answering to the ruler of the nation he's in, I'm not sure about that.  Loses central control - what happens if the King od Ferelden, let's say, orders something that the Grand Cleric opposes?  Who wins?  Or the King of Ferelden orders one thing, and the VIscount of Kirkwall directs something else?  There needs to be continuity.  Using the ruler as an arbiter of a specific case kind of thing, that could be done.

Finally, yes, Harrowing remains.  Mage who fails can choose whether to die or be made tranquil - maybe make that option before beginning.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lithuasil - I get the strong impression some mages never go through the Harrowing. I think some actually stay apprentices forever. The Harrow is only for apprentices to become mages and start being taught the deeper mysteries.

There is certainly no timetable - Jowan states plainly that he's been an apprentice MUCH longer than you have (as the Warden). And were it not for his dabbling in blood magic - Irving would have never considered making him Tranquil.

To pass on to the status of "Mage" and to be taught deeper mysteries - I believe you must prove that you can resist temptation.

[sth128]

outfit the Templars with fade-neutralization guns. These non-lethal weapons will, upon contact, temporarily sever the subject's connection to the fade, rendering all magic impossible for the duration of the effect.

Once neutralized, the blood mages will be tried and sentenced to a set duration in a mage prison where anti-fade field surrounds the entire building.

Now we just have to create this anti-fade technology...

[Medhia Nox]

The Qunari already seem to have it sth128

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lithuasil - I get the strong impression some mages never go through the Harrowing. I think some actually stay apprentices forever. The Harrow is only for apprentices to become mages and start being taught the deeper mysteries.

There is certainly no timetable - Jowan states plainly that he's been an apprentice MUCH longer than you have (as the Warden). And were it not for his dabbling in blood magic - Irving would have never considered making him Tranquil.

To pass on to the status of "Mage" and to be taught deeper mysteries - I believe you must prove that you can resist temptation.

My point is, the harrowing doesn't serve any actual purpose, other then proof (and from what I've seen, it's not something you volunteer to - bethany was forced into the harrowing the minute she arrived). And forcing a potentially life threatening situation on someone, especially if it's the kind of situation you claim to protect him from, that's hardly a competent solution - especially since something like recreating parts of the fade via illusions and magic should be possible, there could easily be a less life-threatening way of testing such things, then just throwing the apprentice at the feet of some demon.

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lithuasil - I get the strong impression some mages never go through the Harrowing. I think some actually stay apprentices forever. The Harrow is only for apprentices to become mages and start being taught the deeper mysteries.

There is certainly no timetable - Jowan states plainly that he's been an apprentice MUCH longer than you have (as the Warden). And were it not for his dabbling in blood magic - Irving would have never considered making him Tranquil.

To pass on to the status of "Mage" and to be taught deeper mysteries - I believe you must prove that you can resist temptation.

My point is, the harrowing doesn't serve any actual purpose, other then proof (and from what I've seen, it's not something you volunteer to - bethany was forced into the harrowing the minute she arrived). And forcing a potentially life threatening situation on someone, especially if it's the kind of situation you claim to protect him from, that's hardly a competent solution - especially since something like recreating parts of the fade via illusions and magic should be possible, there could easily be a less life-threatening way of testing such things, then just throwing the apprentice at the feet of some demon.

I think of it like a vaccination.  Those basically work by injecting you with the disease you're being potected from, either in weakened or dead form, so you can build up antibodies.

There has to be some kind of test to see if a mage can resist the temptation of a demon.  Look at Merrill - under the influence of one already (the one helping her with the mirror) and she also goes and agrees with the Pride Demon in the Fade quest.  Clearly, not someone who can say no.

[L6-636536]

Lithuasil wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lithuasil - I get the strong impression some mages never go through the Harrowing. I think some actually stay apprentices forever. The Harrow is only for apprentices to become mages and start being taught the deeper mysteries.

There is certainly no timetable - Jowan states plainly that he's been an apprentice MUCH longer than you have (as the Warden). And were it not for his dabbling in blood magic - Irving would have never considered making him Tranquil.

To pass on to the status of "Mage" and to be taught deeper mysteries - I believe you must prove that you can resist temptation.

My point is, the harrowing doesn't serve any actual purpose, other then proof (and from what I've seen, it's not something you volunteer to - bethany was forced into the harrowing the minute she arrived). And forcing a potentially life threatening situation on someone, especially if it's the kind of situation you claim to protect him from, that's hardly a competent solution - especially since something like recreating parts of the fade via illusions and magic should be possible, there could easily be a less life-threatening way of testing such things, then just throwing the apprentice at the feet of some demon.

Yeah but the Harrowing is essentially that being thrown into a life threatening situation where you have no choice but to resist or surrender. If you recall Act 3 End there where obviously many mages who were not prepared by the harrowing thus immediately tearing the fade and being possessed almost instantaneously.
As for blood mages like Jowan and etc the company of demons would be appealing for greater knowledge / power if they are unprepared and would be even more susceptible to being possessed and thus that could be why he never underwent the harrowing in fear of being Possessed willingly or otherwise.

As for the game I was bugged that I had to side with the mages I feel the circles are necessary for teaching and producing Mages as well as containment of Blood Magic and Demons. But the Templars need to be more restricted and have far less control over the government overall like they did in Kirkwall which reminds me of the Church back before anyone moved onto the New World.
But then again most of the hatred towards mages was brought about and reinforced by the Chantry and the Revered Mother did not exactly help this either, also the fact that templars are all lyrium addicts makes this worse as its appears to be that Lyrium has the side effect of Paranoia and Aggression 

Overall I feel like the Mages could do well with some actual rights as they are now they're sort've confined jailed and then isolated from society as if though they never existed at a young age even.

Modifié par L6-636536, 21 mars 2011 - 04:32 .

[Medhia Nox]

How do you test someone for the possibility of demonic possession? There's only another answer if Bioware says there is.

I'm sorry Lithuasil - DA: 2 is a really rushed game, I can't justify my thoughts at looking at some of their story choices. She was an apostate who was already taught WAY too much magic - and was way too dangerous. Beyond that - I haven't seen an example where the Harrowing was done irresponsibly. I totally understood why my Warden went through it.

In more liberal countries like America - people like pedophiles, rapists, murderers, etc. have to commit their heinous crimes several times before they're found too guilty to continue on.

Things like a Harrowing are useful precisely because they're an easy, fictional way of discovering whether someone is truly prone to become the unwitting pawn of some terrible entity.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 mars 2011 - 04:25 .

[Lithuasil]

You misjudge my intend - I do full well realize, that tests are necessary - I'm just fairly certain there's ways to emulate such, and conduct tests, without forcing someone into a test, where failiure means death - even if the failiure was on the side of those who deemed an apprentice ready too early.
(And it is hinted and shown several times, that mages have a certain control over the fade)

[Urazz]

Personally, I think the Circle needs to serve more as a school to train mages and help them become more resistant to demons than as a prison for mages to stay at forever. Basically treat mages as people and give them rights but have supervision over them. It would drastically reduce the number of blood mages and magic abuse I think. Sure there will still be mages who break the law but it wouldn't become crazy like Kirkwall turned into with alot of mages there becoming desperate enough to resort to blood magic.

Once they finish their Harrowing (or another equivalent of a graduation exam) let them go move outside of the Circle if they desire but let those that move out have to register with the nearest Circle or Templar office. They will be able to have families or live with their families. One tradeoff though would be that mages would not be able to hold offices of power like being a noble or a king.

Templars would be seperated from the Chantry and would serve more as a police force. They would still be at towers watching mage apprentices but overall, they would be spread out to various towns and would hunt down criminal mages (those that abuse their power or use blood magic). But they would also have some mages help them in their duties as well. This way mages can look after themselves to some extent but another Tevinter Imperium wouldn't happen.

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

You misjudge my intend - I do full well realize, that tests are necessary - I'm just fairly certain there's ways to emulate such, and conduct tests, without forcing someone into a test, where failiure means death - even if the failiure was on the side of those who deemed an apprentice ready too early.
(And it is hinted and shown several times, that mages have a certain control over the fade)

Can you be forced into the Harrowing against your will?  I know the indication is Bethany was "forced", but did they actually thrown her into a room, knock her out and put her in the Fade?  Or did they just put pressure on her to do it?

IF another test can actually recreate the same conditions - an actual demon, a desperate situation, etc - the same way the Harrowing does, I suppose it's workable.  But the result would be the same, IMO - fail, and you die or get made tranquil.  Changing the test out of the actual fade shouldn't change that.

[L6-636536]

Personally I feel being made Tranquill is repulsive and sadistic if you take the imagery of what it means to be Tranquil literally. No Soul No Past No Memory of before, no emotion, just a empty husk with a voice.

[Lithuasil]

TJPags wrote...

Can you be forced into the Harrowing against your will?  I know the indication is Bethany was "forced", but did they actually thrown her into a room, knock her out and put her in the Fade?  Or did they just put pressure on her to do it?

IF another test can actually recreate the same conditions - an actual demon, a desperate situation, etc - the same way the Harrowing does, I suppose it's workable.  But the result would be the same, IMO - fail, and you die or get made tranquil.  Changing the test out of the actual fade shouldn't change that.

As far as I know, the enchanters say you're ready, and then you either agree, or you volunteer for tranquility. And recreating the test, in the fade, would allow for much better consideration of the results - and judging on the basis of overall performance, can lead to more sanctions then just a sword to the throat.
Additionally, it's perfectly possible, to resist temptation, but physically get overwhelmed in the fade - the way the harrowing is now, you not only weed out those who can't resist, you also kill all those who have their minds destroyed, for being strong enough to resist, but simply not very good at magical combat.

[Medhia Nox]

L6-636536: Owain would completely disagree with you, you can even say exactly what you're saying here to him.

We don't know anything about the "soul" in Dragon Age - is the "Dream Self" from the Fade the "soul"? We're not told.

Actually - it's a Zen state, but I won't even bother speaking on its merits - except maybe the fact that demons completely ignore you, that sounds good.

@Lithuasil - there is no "physical" in the Fade. Not according to Origins. It's only your dream self. Valor explains this in Origins... the weapons aren't weapons, they're an extension of your will. You don't actually fight a physical rage demon - you fight the idea of rage. If rage can overcome you in the Fade - then it can manifest only in your body.

Technically - only Shades are physical manifestations of demons. All other demons were SUPPOSE to only appear inside of mortal vessels... but Bioware drops the ball on their own story mythology quite a bit.

Basically - they do put you in the Fade to see if you'll get possessed. If you get possessed - you'll turn into an abomination - and then the Templars will kill you. I'm actually fuzzy on where Tranquility actually comes in - but it's suppose to be there somewhere.

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Can you be forced into the Harrowing against your will?  I know the indication is Bethany was "forced", but did they actually thrown her into a room, knock her out and put her in the Fade?  Or did they just put pressure on her to do it?

IF another test can actually recreate the same conditions - an actual demon, a desperate situation, etc - the same way the Harrowing does, I suppose it's workable.  But the result would be the same, IMO - fail, and you die or get made tranquil.  Changing the test out of the actual fade shouldn't change that.

As far as I know, the enchanters say you're ready, and then you either agree, or you volunteer for tranquility. And recreating the test, in the fade, would allow for much better consideration of the results - and judging on the basis of overall performance, can lead to more sanctions then just a sword to the throat.
Additionally, it's perfectly possible, to resist temptation, but physically get overwhelmed in the fade - the way the harrowing is now, you not only weed out those who can't resist, you also kill all those who have their minds destroyed, for being strong enough to resist, but simply not very good at magical combat.

Hmm, didn't realize it was accept or become tranquil.  Are we sure about that?  Not dobting you, per se, just not sure about it.  I seem to remember something about being allowed to say no once, with no problem (although I may be remembering some book or movie, not DA).

And do all Harrowings involve combat?  Could they not just involve a stressful situation?  Again, not doubting, just not sure there.  I seem to remember something about it being a somewhat controlled situation, meaning (to me, I guess) the combat isn't going to doom you - they won't let the demon kill you if you refuse, but simply can't kill it.

Again, look at Merrill - it wasn't combat that would have doomed her, it was something important to her - saving her people.

[NKKKK]

I made a thread for this let me find the link.

Edit: http://social.biowar...index/6662924/1

One thing I think we can all agree on is the seperation of church and state, seriously only IRL fundamentalists would say otherwise, and I don't think they play Dragon Age.

Modifié par NKKKK, 21 mars 2011 - 04:52 .

[Alyka]

I agree with the OP.
I think mages in the Circle should be allowed supervised visits by family.They should then be released when they turn 18 and are deemed responsible.
The problem I noticed with Circle mages is, it seems as though they are very sheltered (recluse even), so they don't get out in the world and learn how to discipline themselves from life lessons outside of the Circle.This only hinders their growth as a person and forces them to act in desperation when what little they DO have of a life, is threatened.

[Medhia Nox]

Why would being 18 make you responsible?

According to the Codex in Origins - the mages were the ones that first made the Circle. Free mages were originally ONLY allowed to keep the Flames of Andraste lit. That was the only spell they were allowed to learn.

Then - they rebelled by barricading themselves into the choir loft in Val Royaeux. The Templars stopped the Divine of the time from calling an Exalted March... and when they were released - the mages marched into exile and lived in their towers under the protection of the Templars until the present day.

[Alyka]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Why would being 18 make you responsible?

Sorry, let me elaborate:
When a mage turns 18 (if they have gone through the Harrowing before 18, they are evaluated for release.If not, then they would be evaluated at ANY age after which their Harrowing takes place), if they are recognized as being a responsible adult and they use their magic wisely, they can be released.If  the mage is not deemed as such, they will remain at the Circle until they are evaluated again.
IMO, a child isn't responsible enough.So yes, I'm comparing real life.

Modifié par Alyka, 21 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[NKKKK]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Why would being 18 make you responsible?

According to the Codex in Origins - the mages were the ones that first made the Circle. Free mages were originally ONLY allowed to keep the Flames of Andraste lit. That was the only spell they were allowed to learn.

Then - they rebelled by barricading themselves into the choir loft in Val Royaeux. The Templars stopped the Divine of the time from calling an Exalted March... and when they were released - the mages marched into exile and lived in their towers under the protection of the Templars until the present day.

Could be a lie, could not be a lie, either way this is once again further proof of the need for more liberty.

[dreman9999]

1.I would have templars and Mages rased and trained together. One of the major problems is the distance of empathy on both sides, if we make them like family than it would be harder for them to hate each other. To kill the power of fear is the first step.

2.I would work on building discipline in the mages like their's disapin in the Templer order. A lack of will power and knowlege of easy power is the weakest partof mage hood. Make a foundation to pervent this and their be less mages turning to blood magic.

3.Allow  mages to be part of the world. The circle will always be their center, but to make it their cageis the first wrong thing about the idea of the circle itself. Keeping them there only drives more fear over them causing more distance between mages and the world around them. If can be part of the world around them then they feel more incline to help with that world not destory it.

[Medhia Nox]

Why would it be proof of more liberty?

These people have the power to blow up cities... if I had the power, but you didn't... would you sleep well at night knowing I was out there. Would you curl up in your bed just praying that I won't misuse it?

Of course, we all assume we would be the one born with magic.

[Alyka]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.I would have templars and Mages rased and trained together. One of the major problems is the distance of empathy on both sides, if we make them like family than it would be harder for them to hate each other. To kill the power of fear is the first step.

2.I would work on building discipline in the mages like their's disapin in the Templer order. A lack of will power and knowlege of easy power is the weakest partof mage hood. Make a foundation to pervent this and their be less mages turning to blood magic.

3.Allow  mages to be part of the world. The circle will always be their center, but to make it their cageis the first wrong thing about the idea of the circle itself. Keeping them there only drives more fear over them causing more distance between mages and the world around them. If can be part of the world around them then they feel more incline to help with that world not destory it.

Point 1 is a good idea.The rest of your post is what I was trying to say.I agree.