709 réponses à ce sujet

[Brimleydower]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't think there's anything to support this claim.

Especially as the Pride Demon is trapped in Sundermount. Merrill would have had to gather the pieces of the Eluvian while she was in Ferelden and carry them with her to the Free Marches. She obviously wanted to reconstruct it long before she met the demon.

Keeper Marethari tells you this right before you have to fight the Pride Demon.  While Merrill's desire to complete the mirror stemmed from a drive to recover lost elvhen history, the demon abused this obsession to accomplish its own agenda.

[mesmerizedish]

Brimleydower wrote...

Keeper Marethari tells you this right before you have to fight the Pride Demon.  While Merrill's desire to complete the mirror stemmed from a drive to recover lost elvhen history, the demon abused this obsession to accomplish its own agenda.

It's Marethari's belief. That doesn't make it true.

[termokanden]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Exactly -- everything that goes wrong around Merrill is because of how other people react.  We only have the Keeper's word that the demon was going to be able to betray and kill or possess Merrill. 

And you only have Merrill's word that this wouldn't happen. We'll never really know. But Merrill could NOT handle dealing with the Night Terrors demon. I think this is a good sign that she isn't in complete control.

As for Anders, I brought him up as a character in the game who could learn blood magic without being corrupted or turned evil or showing any other sign of  the "inherent evil" of blood magic.

As some of us have pointed out, it's just a gameplay mechanic. There's no way Wynne would accept being a blood mage, but you could make even her a blood mage. She wouldn't say a word about it either.

Anders is very much opposed to blood magic in DA2 by the way. So even people who really, REALLY hate the Chantry and its teachings can still think blood magic is a bad idea. The Keeper is Dalish and also doesn't trust blood magic. It isn't just the Chantry.

Modifié par termokanden, 21 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[Gamer Ftw]

I thought this was an anders thread....

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 21 mars 2011 - 04:06 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vech24 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You can give Wynne, Morrigan, and Anders blood magic in DA:O/A, and none of them turn into monsters.  While the NPC mage trapped in the keep (names are escaping me right now) is a human monster, he would have been a human monster without a drop of blood magic.   Merrill isn't wicked or a monster. 

 
Just pure mechanics. It's obvious that Wynne would never become a blood mage. Anders is also very much opposed to blood magic. So you can't really use that as an argument.

Merrill is more interesting. She's not really evil, and yet her blood magic causes nothing but disaster. She doesn't fully realize what she's doing.

What we can actually observe of the world does not support the claim that blood magic is inherently evil or corrupting. 

They let us give anyone any specialization in DAO. They didn't actually WRITE anything about it. It doesn't fit into the story in any way. And apart from that, blood magic is all about evil, demons and personal power.

No, it's about a source of power, just like any other source of magic power. 

The people it attracts tend to be weak, lazy, desperate, driven, greedy, and/or morally compromised before they learn a single drop of blood magic.  Their flaws are the issue, and the nature of blood magic gives outlet to those flaws. 


It comes down to the fact that reliance on the evidence at hand to examine the truth is preferable to reliance on what we are simply told is true.  Despite what we are told about blood magic by those within the game, the evidence at hand does not support their claims. 

Additionally, too many people confuse what we are told from the perspectives of those within the setting, with objectively stated facts about the setting.  For example, I am almost certain that the story of blood magic coming only from being taught by demons is subjective in-character lore, not objective out-of-character lore. 

That's just picking and choosing what you're accepting as canon then DESPITE various in-game references of Blood Magic being "the dark side". Might as well dismiss that magic is drawn from the Fade while you're at it.

"In game references" by characters within the setting are not the same as objective statements about the setting.  If a character in some eventual DA2 expansion tells another character that all rabits are secret agents of evil, are you going to automatically take that as canon?   Now, notice how many of the codex entries in DA:O and DA2 are written not as objective statements, but from the point of view of characters within the setting. 

[Brimleydower]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Brimleydower wrote...

Keeper Marethari tells you this right before you have to fight the Pride Demon.  While Merrill's desire to complete the mirror stemmed from a drive to recover lost elvhen history, the demon abused this obsession to accomplish its own agenda.

It's Marethari's belief. That doesn't make it true.

I was under the impression that Marethari learned this from the demon itself, thus facilitating the need for her to play host to it.  I suppose it's possible the demon simply lied to her in order to provoke such a sacrifice, but the question that remains then is why would it help Merrill reconstruct the eluvian?

[mesmerizedish]

Brimleydower wrote...

I was under the impression that Marethari learned this from the demon itself, thus facilitating the need for her to play host to it.  I suppose it's possible the demon simply lied to her in order to provoke such a sacrifice, but the question that remains then is why would it help Merrill reconstruct the eluvian?

It's clear that the Keeper believed it before she took the demon into herself. By the time she tells us, she's already an abomination and inherently untrustworthy. Presumably, Merrill made a pact with it. I don't know what she offered in return for its help, but the demon was getting something out of it *shrug*

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Ishmael who the heck is morningbird?

MY ONE TRUE LOVE YOU SHUT UP AND DON'T JUDGE.

*wonders if she should be jealous*

I don't know. Should you?

[Sarielle]

termokanden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Exactly -- everything that goes wrong around Merrill is because of how other people react.  We only have the Keeper's word that the demon was going to be able to betray and kill or possess Merrill. 

And you only have Merrill's word that this wouldn't happen. We'll never really know. But Merrill could NOT handle dealing with the Night Terrors demon. I think this is a good sign that she isn't in complete control.

As others have said, almost no one could deal with that demon. Merrill also makes backup plans in case she can't handle the Sundermount demon.

Imo if we want to argue someone being manipulated by a pride demon, Marethari fits better than Merrill (not that Merrill doesn't fit, she does). Marethari is the one who believes she, and she alone knows best; and through some very convoluted reasoning deliberately allows herself to be possessed (hello Keeper abomination vs. relatively inexperienced mage abomination...which one is a bigger problem?).

[Maria Caliban]

Brimleydower wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't think there's anything to support this claim.

Especially as the Pride Demon is trapped in Sundermount. Merrill would have had to gather the pieces of the Eluvian while she was in Ferelden and carry them with her to the Free Marches. She obviously wanted to reconstruct it long before she met the demon.

Keeper Marethari tells you this right before you have to fight the Pride Demon.  While Merrill's desire to complete the mirror stemmed from a drive to recover lost elvhen history, the demon abused this obsession to accomplish its own agenda.

Keeper Marethari is not always right.

Yes, the demon wants out. It hasn't tricked Merrill into anything, however. It might have tricked Marethari for all we know.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2011 - 04:12 .

[Brimleydower]

Unless the Keeper was speaking the truth. She certainly never hinted towards the fact that Merrill was about to unleash a demon on the world before that point.

[termokanden]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, the demon wants out. It hasn't tricked Merrill into anything, however. It might have tricked Marethari for all we know.

Wait a minute. How do you know it hasn't tricked Merrill. You don't hear what the deal was.

Don't get me wrong, I *want* blood magic to be magic like any other. Something that can be controlled and not just used for evil. What I'm trying to say is that the game constantly throws examples at us where it goes wrong, but it never manages to show us the opposite.

[Saboteur-6]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Vech24 wrote...

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a magical practice to avoid Demon possession OR other sinister uses of magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account for in the context of a video game. Blood Magic is connected to Demons...Demons are bad. I don't see the confusion

The sentence featuring the bolded portion can't be effectively understood. I'm not saying "ur gramer sux get out," but it doesn't make grammatical sense. I went with my best interpretation of your intent.

Demons aren't bad, not according the Dalish. The Chantry seperates Fade entities into spirits and demons, good and bad. The Dalish see spirits as being all dangerous. There's no inherent difference between Justice and Desire.

You can say "Oh, well, they're wrong, the Chantry's right," but that's just your own unprovable belief.

Can't be effectively understood? Blood Magic used in the game and expanded upon by the story is almost always portrayed as a "Dark Ritualistic" use of magic. I mean the tooltip in DA:O regarding the Blood Mage specialization DESCRIBES it as being taught to mortals by Demons. That's not from a Chantry codex or from an in-game character...that's from a BioWare dev to the player.

Moving on to your second claim, where/when do the Dalish state that Demons aren't bad? If you're trying to justify a Rage Demon isn't "bad" to the Dalish because they distrust ALL spirits then you're just splitting hairs.

And yes there's an inherent difference between Justice and Desire as one embodies/thrives of off a human virtue while another thrives off of a selfish human emotion. Regardless of what the Dalish or Chantry believe.

Modifié par Vech24, 21 mars 2011 - 04:24 .

[QwibQwib]

Maria Caliban is a demon herself o.O

[mesmerizedish]

QwibQwib wrote...

Maria Caliban is a demon herself o.O

Spirit.

[mesmerizedish]

Vech24 wrote...

Can't be effectively understood? Blood Magic used in the game and expanded upon by the story is almost always portrayed as a "Dark Ritualistic" use of magic. I mean the tooltip in DA:O regarding the Blood Mage specialization DESCRIBES it as being taught to mortals by Demons. That's not from a Chantry codex or from an in-game character...that's from a BioWare dev to the player.

"Taught by demons" != "possessed"

Moving on to your second claim, where/when do the Dalish state that demons aren't bad? If you're trying to justify a Rage Demon isn't "bad" to the Dalish because they distrust ALL spirits then you're just splitting hairs.

Merrill: "There's no such thing as a good spirit. All spirits are dangerous."

And yes there's an inherent difference between Justice and Desire as one embodies/thrives of off a human virtue while another thrives off of a selfish human emotion. Regardless of what the Dalish or Chantry believe.

And that's where you're wrong (maybe). That's certainly what the Chantry says. But the Dalish have a very different view. As Merrill says, they have their own stories. They don't need to borrow yours.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

termokanden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Exactly -- everything that goes wrong around Merrill is because of how other people react.  We only have the Keeper's word that the demon was going to be able to betray and kill or possess Merrill. 

And you only have Merrill's word that this wouldn't happen. We'll never really know. But Merrill could NOT handle dealing with the Night Terrors demon. I think this is a good sign that she isn't in complete control.

Which is poor writing for the sake of something the writer is trying to force.  She's the one character who should without a doubt be able to handle it. 

termokanden wrote...

As for Anders, I brought him up as a character in the game who could learn blood magic without being corrupted or turned evil or showing any other sign of  the "inherent evil" of blood magic.

As some of us have pointed out, it's just a gameplay mechanic. There's no way Wynne would accept being a blood mage, but you could make even her a blood mage. She wouldn't say a word about it either..

There is no such thing as Gameplay vs Story Segregation, just bad design and writing.  If Wynne wouldn't practice blood magic, then the specialization shouldn't be available for her.  Anders and the Warden even have a brief exchange about him learning blood magic in DA:OA, if he learned it, and he expresses no outrage -- so any opposition he has to blood magic in DA2 is retcon or something that has changed about Anders for some story reason.  In Warden's Keep, the Warden PC has the option to make the statement "the Wardens don't forbid blood magic -- whatever it takes to beat the darkspawn." 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 21 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[Sarah1281]

Merrill: "There's no such thing as a good spirit. All spirits are dangerous."

Since when does that mean that they're all equally dangerous and in the same way? The run-of-the-mill demons you meet aren't going to be at much risk of tricking or possessing you but they could kill you.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I don't know. Should you?

Maria <- Purple with desire but green with envy.

termokanden wrote...

Wait a minute. How do you know it hasn't tricked Merrill. You don't hear what the deal was.

It might have, but since we don't know what the deal was, we can't say. I can interpret text and I can interpret subtext, but I can't interpret no-text.

Merrill wants information from the demon. She knows this is dangerous and there's a chance she'll be possessed. She brings Hawke along to kill her if this happens.

I see nothing in there that could be considered a trick. Merrill being too attached to the mirror, perhaps, but she's been attached to that mirror for four years now.

QwibQwib wrote...

Maria Caliban is a demon herself o.O

I hope that isn't an ad hominem.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2011 - 04:39 .

[errant_knight]

Actually, Anders was initially described in Awakening and the promo materials as hating blood magic. If he says it's okay in conversation, that's the part that's problematic. Not his attitude in DA2.

[mesmerizedish]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Merrill: "There's no such thing as a good spirit. All spirits are dangerous."

Since when does that mean that they're all equally dangerous and in the same way? The run-of-the-mill demons you meet aren't going to be at much risk of tricking or possessing you but they could kill you.

Her point is that Justice is not inherently "better" than Pride. They're all the same. The only delineation is applied after-the-fact by the Chantry.

[Saboteur-6]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...



Can't be effectively understood? Blood Magic used in the game and expanded upon by the story is almost always portrayed as a "Dark Ritualistic" use of magic. I mean the tooltip in DA:O regarding the Blood Mage specialization DESCRIBES it as being taught to mortals by Demons. That's not from a Chantry codex or from an in-game character...that's from a BioWare dev to the player.

"Taught by demons" != "possessed

Would you prefer that I originally said "more susceptible to demon posession" then?

Merrill: "There's no such thing as a good spirit. All spirits are dangerous."

And that one sentence is enough to subvert and disprove what you encounter first-hand in the Fade throughout DA:O and DA II?

And that's where you're wrong (maybe). That's certainly what the Chantry says. But the Dalish have a very different view. As Merrill says, they have their own stories. They don't need to borrow yours.

...and if the gameplay didn't involve me constantly battling Demons I might believe her.

Modifié par Vech24, 21 mars 2011 - 04:43 .

[Maria Caliban]

Vech24 wrote...

Merrill: "There's no such thing as a good spirit. All spirits are dangerous."

And that one sentence is enough to subvert and disprove what you encounter first-hand in the Fade throughout DA:O and DA II?

Did you miss the part where Anders twists an innocent mage girl's head off?

[termokanden]

Maria Caliban wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Wait a minute. How do you know it hasn't tricked Merrill. You don't hear what the deal was.

It might have, but since we don't know what the deal was, we can't say. I can interpret text and I can interpret subtext, but I can't interpret no-text.

I'm just wondering why people are sure Merrill knows exactly what she's doing but at the same time there's no problem believing the keeper might as well have been tricked by the demon.

All of this is why I want the game to show us that blood magic doesn't always go wrong. But no such examples are supported by the story. In Merrill's case, the ritual just might have worked if the keeper didn't get involved. We'll never know. The point is that once again the game makes the connection between blood magic and disaster.

[mesmerizedish]

Vech24 wrote...

Would you prefer that I originally said "more susceptible to demon posession" then?

Yes, actually. I still disagree with that statement, but it's actually open to discussion, whereas your initial comment is provably false.

And that one sentence is enough to subvert and disprove what you encounter first-hand in the Fade throughout DA:O and DA II?

That one sentence expresses the Dalish view on the indigenous population of the Fade.

...and if the gameplay didn't involve me constantly battling Demons I might believe her.

The gameplay involves you constantly battling lots of things. It also features many demons that you don't have to battle.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 04:47 .

[Saboteur-6]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Vech24 wrote...

Merrill: "There's no such thing as a good spirit. All spirits are dangerous."

And that one sentence is enough to subvert and disprove what you encounter first-hand in the Fade throughout DA:O and DA II?

Did you miss the part where Anders twists an innocent mage girl's head off?

And did you miss the part where Justice became Vengeance?