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Am I the only one not upset by what Anders did?


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#276
Sarielle

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Medhia Nox wrote...

I did read the OP - and several people after that. All whom agree that Anders is awesome and what he did was great. What I didn't seem to read  that it turned into a discussion about Justice as a spirit.


Well, you didn't read far enough :P

Besides comparing a fictional blowing up of a fictional building to 9-11 is a little...meh. I want to say silly but it's an emotionally-charged topic so...inappropriate, perhaps?

I don't really hate the templars. There aren't any modern-day templars to even hate! I might play a mage who does, though. Or a warrior who hates mages (I don't hate them, either. ;P )

If we compare to in-game lore, though (which is far more appropriate, imo), Andraste caused a lot of death in the Imperium. Violence to spark necessary change, there? Then there's the whole exalted march agains the Dalish...Same deal?

Edit: Typos ftl

Modifié par Sarielle, 21 mars 2011 - 05:40 .


#277
termokanden

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

termokanden wrote...

I don't see how it's a straw man argument.


I never said that spirits were always morally ambiguous. I said the BioWare never missed an opportunity to point out how they could be.

I will agree to a "maybe" in the case of the desire demons, but the point of my examples was to show how clearly evil the demons you meet quite often are.

Almost every desire demon you encounter. Anders's Justice. Two very prominent examples on both sides of the Chantry's imaginary fence.


Agreed about Justice. Not so sure I could ever see the good in being possessed by the desire demons. Sounds a bit much like what happened to some friends of mine who are still caught in MMOs. The more you get sucked into a fantasy, the worse your reality actually gets :)

But in the vast majority of cases you just meet demons and it's clear they are bad. You can make a deal and profit, and someone else will suffer, or you can kill them. But mostly you just fight demons without saying a word.

#278
mesmerizedish

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Maria brought up the best example for the desire demons: the demon with the templar at the Circle tower in Origins. The templar made a free decision to allow the demon to use him to enter the physical world in return for her granting him the illusion of love and peace and happiness. I'm not saying that that's any great good, but how is it evil?

#279
termokanden

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria brought up the best example for the desire demons: the demon with the templar at the Circle tower in Origins. The templar made a free decision to allow the demon to use him to enter the physical world in return for her granting him the illusion of love and peace and happiness. I'm not saying that that's any great good, but how is it evil?


It's not really clear what will happen in the long term there. But I've never seen people who live in a fantasy world end up in a good situation. And I've certainly seen my share of people who live in fantasy worlds. Don't really have any real-world experience with desire demons though!

Anyway this example is why I agreed to a "maybe". It's hardly going to convince me they used every opportunity they could.

Modifié par termokanden, 21 mars 2011 - 05:50 .


#280
mesmerizedish

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termokanden wrote...

Anyway this example is why I agreed to a "maybe".


Which is all I'm saying ^_^

#281
Medhia Nox

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Roleplaying a character who hates something - and agreeing with the actions of a fictional character are actually two different things.

And I don't believe in violence to spark necessary change.

#282
mesmerizedish

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Medhia Nox wrote...

And I don't believe in violence to spark necessary change.


I'd be careful with that idea if I were you. You're bound to get Godwinned ;)

#283
MasterSamson88

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Medhia Nox wrote...

And I don't believe in violence to spark necessary change.


Being the dominant power on Thedas nothing else would really change the Chantry's mind on how it treats it's mages. 

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 21 mars 2011 - 05:56 .


#284
Medhia Nox

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Oh, no doubt - ishmaeltheforsaken.

Master Sampson88 - Britain was the dominant power in India circa 1915

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 mars 2011 - 05:58 .


#285
mesmerizedish

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MasterSamson88 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

And I don't believe in violence to spark necessary change.


Being the dominant power on Thedas nothing else would really change the Chantry's mind on how it treats it's mages. 


Well, I agree that violence wasn't necessary in this instance. I just disagree that violence is never necessary. I'm just saying, there's a time to sit down, and there's a time to stand up :police:

#286
termokanden

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Don't mention the war!

I don't believe Anders did the "right thing". But I see it as an act of desperation and I wouldn't judge him too harshly because of it. The templars in Kirkwall aren't just keeping the mages from becoming abominations and eating people, they're pretty much abusing them.

#287
Ryzaki

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Ah I never said how I felt about this did I?

Nope not upset at all. Wish he would've told me though.

#288
Medhia Nox

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ishmaeltheforsaken - don't equate fighting to courage.

#289
mesmerizedish

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Medhia Nox wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken - don't equate fighting to courage.


You misunderstood, I think. I could have been a bit clearer, but I was hoping the play-on-words would be clear enough. The "sit down" comment wasn't about knowing when to let things go. It was a reference to the sit-ins staged by black protesters during the fifties and sixties.

#290
Saboteur-6

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Or maybe their canon just isn't as simplistic as you'd like it to be.


Or maybe you're seeing "complex subtext" where I'm seeing lazy writing. Deciding Justice should evolve into Vengeance seems to taste more like "plot convenience" than consideration to the lore of the Fade.

Do you remember the desire demon in the Circle tower in DA:O? She was morally ambiguous as well. She wasn't running around slaughtering people. She gave a single Templar an illusion of a life he'd love instead of a reality he hated.


...at the cost of his free-will. To condone the manipulation of the Templar is to condone the act of his deception. It is a false perception of reality that the Desire demon has created to selfishly sustain herself. Is it morally ambiguous? Sure...to a point, and that's a credit to the writing in DA:O.

When Anders looses himself to Justice/Vengeance it's pretty clear that this spirit has become something twisted.

Modifié par Vech24, 21 mars 2011 - 06:03 .


#291
MasterSamson88

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

And I don't believe in violence to spark necessary change.


Being the dominant power on Thedas nothing else would really change the Chantry's mind on how it treats it's mages. 


Well, I agree that violence wasn't necessary in this instance. I just disagree that violence is never necessary. I'm just saying, there's a time to sit down, and there's a time to stand up :police:


Personally I thought it was necessary, I just don't see any alternative methods to make the Chantry listen to reason. Like I said they've been reasoned with before to no effect, the most the Grand Cleric would have done was maybe lessen the Mages Burden and perhaps take away some of Meredith's power, but in the long run the situation between the Mages and Templars still wouldn't have been solved, with the Chantry free to essentially come down upon the Mages whenever they wish. The Chantry's not about to listen to anyone, especially since they have their own armed military wing.

I do kind of wish there was another way though, that didn't involve so much murder on the part of Anders.

#292
Sarielle

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Medhia Nox wrote...

Roleplaying a character who hates something - and agreeing with the actions of a fictional character are actually two different things.

And I don't believe in violence to spark necessary change.


So is a fictional and an actual act of terrorism ;)

My point was that in this fictional Dragon Age universe, Andraste used an Exalted March (read: crusade) to free elves. It was later used to attack them, but whatever, lol. She used violence to spark change.

Then Anders uses violence to spark change against Andraste's institutuion (the Chantry).

In THIS setting, it seems to work. And some would argue that, for mages in Thedas, it would take that act of terrorism to spark change.

You don't have to agree with real-world terrorism to believe Anders was justified. Hell, I personally don't agree with his methods. That doesn't mean they didn't work. Guessing from the story within the story, they're working pretty damn well.

#293
mesmerizedish

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Vech24 wrote...

...at the cost of his free-will. To condone the manipulation of the Templar is to condone the act of his deception. It is a false perception of reality that the Desire demon has created to selfishly sustain herself. Is it morally ambiguous? Sure...to a point, and that's a credit to the writing in DA:O.


He had free will within the dream-world, and what real-world faculties he lost, he voluntarily gave up. He knew he'd be deceived, and he wanted it. Why is it so wrong to give him what he wants?

Since when has sustaining one's self been selfish?

#294
Saboteur-6

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Vech24 wrote...

...at the cost of his free-will. To condone the manipulation of the Templar is to condone the act of his deception. It is a false perception of reality that the Desire demon has created to selfishly sustain herself. Is it morally ambiguous? Sure...to a point, and that's a credit to the writing in DA:O.


He had free will within the dream-world, and what real-world faculties he lost, he voluntarily gave up. He knew he'd be deceived, and he wanted it. Why is it so wrong to give him what he wants?

Since when has sustaining one's self been selfish?


You'd be an awesome addicitions counselor.

#295
mesmerizedish

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Vech24 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

He had free will within the dream-world, and what real-world faculties he lost, he voluntarily gave up. He knew he'd be deceived, and he wanted it. Why is it so wrong to give him what he wants?

Since when has sustaining one's self been selfish?


You'd be an awesome addicitions counselor.


I'm not sure which part of my post you're addressing.

If it's the first, then it's a different situation entirely. Are you aware of the reality he was living in?

If it's the latter, then the demon isn't addicted anymore than I'm addicted to breathing.

#296
Medhia Nox

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Did they work? We don't know.

=====

A mother is buying goods in the market section of High Town, her daughter is playing on the steps of the Chantry - Andraste and the Maker watching over her - surely she is safe in the hands of the sisters.

Then, the Chantry explodes. The mother drops her basket full of fresh vegetables and cured meats. She runs to the site - only to see people fleeing. Covering their mouths with their hands or spare cloth. Covered in blood - they don't even give her a sideways glance as she cries for her daughter. The screams within the great plumes of smoke are deafening.

She disappears in the cloud. It swirls around her and she can swear there are "things" in the mist. Clawing, maddening, "things" of rage and pride and... justice.

Then, thanks be to Andraste the mist clears... but the horror before her is too much to bear. The Chantry is gone. Great coils of blackened smoke issue forth from the crater like dragons taking flight after terrible vengeance wrought upon mortal men.

She ignores all this and searches for her daughter. Her hands become bloody as she tears at the great stone blocks that are now strewn across the steps of the Chantry. Her nails splinter and break, but still she continues driven on by the strength of a mother who must save her daughter.

And there she is - a broken rag doll amongst all that marble. She clutches to the twisted arm of a cleric who's body disappears beneath a half-melted statue of Andraste that collapsed upon her. Your daughter. The pride of your life. The Maker's own gift... dead.

And the question is... why?

====

But hey, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs right?

#297
Dave of Canada

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When dealing with mages, you have to realize one thing: Society is fearful of magic, not because of Chantry propaganda or whatever. You'd have to deal with people that can play with your mind, become demons and destroy everything that you hold dear. Mages will never be free, even if the templars are removed out of the picture, unless they subjugate the people and essentially turn into the Tevinter Imperium.

How do you think Jim the Farmer will react when mages come around and oppress him? Do you think he'll like it? Chances are, he'll now view the templar as even more justified than before and he'd be more fearful than what the mages felt locked up in the tower. How does he know that his missing crops isn't something that he was forced to do against his will using blood magic? How does he know that the entire harvest that's gone bad isn't the rival neighbor's mage boy using his spells to help his father?

We've heard multiple times in Origins itself that the Circle protects mages as much as it protects normal people, the children who are taken there are often the minority and the others are often killed by the people out of fear. Many people use this as some sort of excuse as why the templar are evil, however... they protect the children, they don't slay the child when they could have and they bring the child to a place of learning so they don't risk possession.

The Tevinter Imperium, a land of mages, still takes mage children away for training. Does that make them as evil as the templar? I see many people disagree, they tend to ignore that these mage children learn their talents to become something like Magisters which can summon demons and do whatever they want or be crushed underheel by other mage fanatics.

So I ask you, which is better? Mages, a minority, oppressing the normal people or the normal people, the majority, sealing mages away? There's no other options for the mages, any freedom will lead to an eventual Tevinter or new Circle being formed. Anders was devoted to the former and felt that the latter didn't work, he decided to risk an entire war that will kill thousands continent wide for the chance that the former might happen. If the latter happens, he caused an entire war that will probably lead to mages being justily prosecuted with harsher penalties.

That's why I was upset, he caused a war for the sake of mages without caring about anybody else. He knows it himself, he wants to die because he knows what he did was crazy and that he killed innocents. He admits it himself.

I tried to keep the peace, the war was looming and I didn't side with anybody (though I was pro-mage in my dealings) to that point, after he blew it up and removed the choice of peace? I tried to contain the situation as best as I could, I killed Anders to make sure that his influence doesn't spread further than Kirkwall (he's symbollic whether he's a martyr or not) and sided with Meredith because fighting the authorities and the public wasn't something I was going to do. Siding with the Mages would mean supporting anarchy and the destruction of the Chantry.

That and I felt the Right of Anullment, while extreme, was justified. Meredith saw demons everywhere she went because they were actually demons, blood mages roamed the streets and possessed random people to attack you (even before the war) and half of the quests you deal with are the result of blood mages or apostates going bat**** crazy. Orsino tried to oppose it, Orsino protected Quentin (thy mother's killer) and the Circle in general was planning to usurp Meredith.

Hell, before the idol she was introduced we know she's logical and not as evil as everybody makes her out to be judging by how she still allowed blood mages--which are usually killed on sight--back into the Circle and how she allows Keran to stay in the templar even at the risk of having him possessed. This is her even though her entire family and 70 of her fellow villagers were killed by her sister (which was a mage), how do you think anybody else would feel in those shoes? Probably not as merciful.

Dismissing all of this by saying "I love Anders" or "templar are bad' is dismissing pretty big things.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 mars 2011 - 06:28 .


#298
mesmerizedish

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The Right of Annulment is never justified.

#299
Aeowyn

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Right of Annulment is never justified.


I agree.

#300
Dave of Canada

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*edited out, I'll respond after eating*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 mars 2011 - 06:34 .