709 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

Oh, but I thought violence is sometimes necessary?

[Sarielle]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Did they work? We don't know.

=====

A mother is buying goods in the market section of High Town, her daughter is playing on the steps of the Chantry - Andraste and the Maker watching over her - surely she is safe in the hands of the sisters.

Then, the Chantry explodes. The mother drops her basket full of fresh vegetables and cured meats. She runs to the site - only to see people fleeing. Covering their mouths with their hands or spare cloth. Covered in blood - they don't even give her a sideways glance as she cries for her daughter. The screams within the great plumes of smoke are deafening.

She disappears in the cloud. It swirls around her and she can swear there are "things" in the mist. Clawing, maddening, "things" of rage and pride and... justice.

Then, thanks be to Andraste the mist clears... but the horror before her is too much to bear. The Chantry is gone. Great coils of blackened smoke issue forth from the crater like dragons taking flight after terrible vengeance wrought upon mortal men.

She ignores all this and searches for her daughter. Her hands become bloody as she tears at the great stone blocks that are now strewn across the steps of the Chantry. Her nails splinter and break, but still she continues driven on by the strength of a mother who must save her daughter.

And there she is - a broken rag doll amongst all that marble. She clutches to the twisted arm of a cleric who's body disappears beneath a half-melted statue of Andraste that collapsed upon her. Your daughter. The pride of your life. The Maker's own gift... dead.

And the question is... why?

====

But hey, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs right?

Are you trying to make me somehow feel guilty?

Lol, yes, for what Anders wanted to achieve, it appears to have worked. By Varric's accounts, the Chantry is falling apart. Even ANDERS acknowledges he has to pay for what he's done, if you tell him that. He just says, "I know." Doesn't mean the mages aren't winning their freedom now.

The emotional bit about some little girl dying was both unnecessary and irrelevant.

Edited for clarity. And, time to go to work.

Modifié par Sarielle, 21 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[Aeowyn]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Oh, but I thought violence is sometimes necessary?

And what would executing all the mages achieve exactly?

[Saboteur-6]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Vech24 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

He had free will within the dream-world, and what real-world faculties he lost, he voluntarily gave up. He knew he'd be deceived, and he wanted it. Why is it so wrong to give him what he wants?

Since when has sustaining one's self been selfish?

You'd be an awesome addicitions counselor.

I'm not sure which part of my post you're addressing.

If it's the first, then it's a different situation entirely. Are you aware of the reality he was living in?

If it's the latter, then the demon isn't addicted anymore than I'm addicted to breathing.

I get that you seem to enjoy playing devil's advocate so I'll indulge you this last time.

If I'm recalling correctly, the Templar is susceptible to the Desire Demon as a result of his loneliness and despair. It's from this irrational and desperate mind state that he agrees to the Desire Demon's terms. So in essence, she manipulates and preys on the Templar's vulnerability in order to feed from him. In turn, he's granted this "fantasy world" and escape from his pain. The Templar must suffer this illusion for the rest of his life and thus becomes incapable of ANY other real-word experiences, relationships, or the ability to change his mind.
Allowing this exploitation the Templar's emotions is why this is an act of manipulation and not a true symbiotic relationship.

[Medhia Nox]

Yeah, better we treat with like: "Blow up the Chantry - now FIGHT!" Than to think there were people killed in his act of terrorism that had no part in Anders psychotic fantasy of oppression.

It's Bioware that treated terrorism with the maturity level of someone who gains their morality from Saturday morning cartoons.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[Dave of Canada]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Right of Annulment is never justified.

We have mages having open rebellion against Meredith, we have Orsino trying to gather the normal people to oppose Meredith and we have blood mages everywhere that can't be investigated because Orsino is preventing any searches of the Gallows to be done. Blood Mages roam the street killing innocent people, mind controlling normal people to fight for them. Mages are also siding with some of the templar which gather more people inside templar ranks to rebel against Meredith.

What does Meredith do after all this? Nothing much, she cracks down on opposing mages but that results in people calling her a tyrant and it leads to more rebellion amongst the mages. After the destruction of the Chantry by a mage, the citizens of Kirkwall will demand that the mages pay for their crime (regardless of the Circle's involvement or not, what they know is that a mage did it). Meredith sees it and orders the Right of Annulment to cull the Circle, the same Circle that's been trying to kill her for years now and have been harboring Blood Mages.

Funny thing is, as soon as she calls the Right of Annulment... everybody turns into blood mages, everybody summons demons except for the really small minority of mages that are running left and right. I was uncertain about the Right of Anullment, I felt it was a little too extreme but I decided to side with Meredith anyway and when I saw everybody went crazy (including Orsino which murders his own students for their blood / bodies) I felt completely justified with the Right of Anullment and agreed with Meredith on everything except for her ordering me to kill the surrendering mages, which I did oppose her on.

It's more justified to me than blowing up the Chantry, blowing up the Chantry would've made people cry out for blood and she followed it up.

[Iecerint]

I was shocked at first, but then I understood. It's true that the Chantry had willfully refused to deescalate the conflict, and Anders even has you talk to the Mother about changing her position during his quest. The Mother also knew about the risk of staying, if only loosely, through the Sebastian DLC, if you played it. And she was definitely aware of the Mages' situation, so it's not like she was really innocent, anyway.

I would've liked to have seen some effort on the part of Anders to tell Chantry underlings with less power about his plans, but I suppose that might have undermined them. So I understand this.

The Mother had good intentions, but calling her "innocent" may be a stretch.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Tyrium wrote...

I'm glad there are others. I'm starting to feel pretty in the minority. I don't regard it as terrorism - it was not a civilian building, not was it done in order to kill civilians. It was done to remove someone who refused to take real action when action could have helped, and was now allowing a much worse cycle to continue. More templar squeeze -> more evil mages -> more templar squeeze etc. I don't like the fact that there were innocents in there, but there was no other way to eliminate her, and it was necessary to eliminate her to end this in the only way it could be - open war. That said, I'm glad he didn't tell her, because she would have tried to find another option, then she would have agreed to help, and been paralysed with guilt. She was upset he lied to her, but its better for her this way, and she understands he was protecting her. She was very upset, but when he explained his reasoning for why he blew up the chantry, she realised it was certainly not mad vengeance, it was well reasoned, and honestly the only available option. It also helps that he's not all triumphant, he is devastated that this is the only option. It

Compromise was truly no longer an option, this had to end. Rhiannon and Anders went off into the sunset, fighting for a world where their children could be born free.

Uh, yeah it was terrorism. It was a building used by civilians. Really? This kind of thing happens all the time in volatile regions of the world.O_o

[mesmerizedish]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Oh, but I thought violence is sometimes necessary?

It is. But, as I stated earlier, the whole mage/chantry thing isn't one of those "sometimes."

[mesmerizedish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Right of Annulment is never justified.

We have mages having open rebellion against Meredith, we have Orsino trying to gather the normal people to oppose Meredith and we have blood mages everywhere that can't be investigated because Orsino is preventing any searches of the Gallows to be done. Blood Mages roam the street killing innocent people, mind controlling normal people to fight for them. Mages are also siding with some of the templar which gather more people inside templar ranks to rebel against Meredith.

What does Meredith do after all this? Nothing much, she cracks down on opposing mages but that results in people calling her a tyrant and it leads to more rebellion amongst the mages. After the destruction of the Chantry by a mage, the citizens of Kirkwall will demand that the mages pay for their crime (regardless of the Circle's involvement or not, what they know is that a mage did it). Meredith sees it and orders the Right of Annulment to cull the Circle, the same Circle that's been trying to kill her for years now and have been harboring Blood Mages.

Funny thing is, as soon as she calls the Right of Annulment... everybody turns into blood mages, everybody summons demons except for the really small minority of mages that are running left and right. I was uncertain about the Right of Anullment, I felt it was a little too extreme but I decided to side with Meredith anyway and when I saw everybody went crazy (including Orsino which murders his own students for their blood / bodies) I felt completely justified with the Right of Anullment and agreed with Meredith on everything except for her ordering me to kill the surrendering mages, which I did oppose her on.

It's more justified to me than blowing up the Chantry, blowing up the Chantry would've made people cry out for blood and she followed it up.

It's not about whether Meredith was ever right, or if the mages were ever right. It's about systematically punishing a group for the actions of individuals. If there's even one innocent mage in a Circle, then the Right of Annulment is unjustifiable.

[termokanden]

It's more justified to me than blowing up the Chantry, blowing up the Chantry would've made people cry out for blood and she followed it up.

Annullment against all mages is... Well I can hardly say what it is without Godwin'ing this thread. Just as Anders' act reminds us of real world terrorist attacks, the templars remind me of real world injustices and the general tendency to hate everyone who is different. I could never side with the templars in the game. It's just a game, but they stand for everything I hate.

[SurelyForth]

Dave of Canada wrote...
It's more justified to me than blowing up the Chantry, blowing up the Chantry would've made people cry out for blood and she followed it up.

But...no one cried out for blood. She just said they would. However, even if there was a demonstrated outcry in the game she had the perpetrator right in front of her. All she had to do was take Anders into custody and hold a public execution. He would have admitted to what he did in front of everyone, I'm sure, because to blame anyone else for his actions would be unjust.

Doing that would have had the extra bonus of taking some of the power out of what Anders did. The mages in the Gallows were the last mages she should have went after, yet they were her immediate focus. She proved Anders' point by calling for the Rite.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 21 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Right of Annulment is never justified.

We have mages having open rebellion against Meredith, we have Orsino trying to gather the normal people to oppose Meredith and we have blood mages everywhere that can't be investigated because Orsino is preventing any searches of the Gallows to be done. Blood Mages roam the street killing innocent people, mind controlling normal people to fight for them. Mages are also siding with some of the templar which gather more people inside templar ranks to rebel against Meredith.

What does Meredith do after all this? Nothing much, she cracks down on opposing mages but that results in people calling her a tyrant and it leads to more rebellion amongst the mages. After the destruction of the Chantry by a mage, the citizens of Kirkwall will demand that the mages pay for their crime (regardless of the Circle's involvement or not, what they know is that a mage did it). Meredith sees it and orders the Right of Annulment to cull the Circle, the same Circle that's been trying to kill her for years now and have been harboring Blood Mages.

Funny thing is, as soon as she calls the Right of Annulment... everybody turns into blood mages, everybody summons demons except for the really small minority of mages that are running left and right. I was uncertain about the Right of Anullment, I felt it was a little too extreme but I decided to side with Meredith anyway and when I saw everybody went crazy (including Orsino which murders his own students for their blood / bodies) I felt completely justified with the Right of Anullment and agreed with Meredith on everything except for her ordering me to kill the surrendering mages, which I did oppose her on.

It's more justified to me than blowing up the Chantry, blowing up the Chantry would've made people cry out for blood and she followed it up.

Yeah, the game does everything it can to prove mages aren't exactly the Witch of the West. Seriously, I felt like I was the only sane person in that city. If there was a "Throw your hands up in disgust" interrupt I would have used it. The Templar's were monsters and despite what the mages said they only proved they were ones as well. And Anders was a selfish git. He made the decision for all mages and I'm sure they were just positively giddy to find out one of their own brought the Right of Annulment down on them. Thanks Anders. You helped so much.

[Clover Rider]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Right of Annulment is never justified.

We have mages having open rebellion against Meredith, we have Orsino trying to gather the normal people to oppose Meredith and we have blood mages everywhere that can't be investigated because Orsino is preventing any searches of the Gallows to be done. Blood Mages roam the street killing innocent people, mind controlling normal people to fight for them. Mages are also siding with some of the templar which gather more people inside templar ranks to rebel against Meredith.

What does Meredith do after all this? Nothing much, she cracks down on opposing mages but that results in people calling her a tyrant and it leads to more rebellion amongst the mages. After the destruction of the Chantry by a mage, the citizens of Kirkwall will demand that the mages pay for their crime (regardless of the Circle's involvement or not, what they know is that a mage did it). Meredith sees it and orders the Right of Annulment to cull the Circle, the same Circle that's been trying to kill her for years now and have been harboring Blood Mages.

Funny thing is, as soon as she calls the Right of Annulment... everybody turns into blood mages, everybody summons demons except for the really small minority of mages that are running left and right. I was uncertain about the Right of Anullment, I felt it was a little too extreme but I decided to side with Meredith anyway and when I saw everybody went crazy (including Orsino which murders his own students for their blood / bodies) I felt completely justified with the Right of Anullment and agreed with Meredith on everything except for her ordering me to kill the surrendering mages, which I did oppose her on.

It's more justified to me than blowing up the Chantry, blowing up the Chantry would've made people cry out for blood and she followed it up.

It's not about whether Meredith was ever right, or if the mages were ever right. It's about systematically punishing a group for the actions of individuals. If there's even one innocent mage in a Circle, then the Right of Annulment is unjustifiable.

This:wizard:

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sarielle wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Did they work? We don't know.

=====

A mother is buying goods in the market section of High Town, her daughter is playing on the steps of the Chantry - Andraste and the Maker watching over her - surely she is safe in the hands of the sisters.

Then, the Chantry explodes. The mother drops her basket full of fresh vegetables and cured meats. She runs to the site - only to see people fleeing. Covering their mouths with their hands or spare cloth. Covered in blood - they don't even give her a sideways glance as she cries for her daughter. The screams within the great plumes of smoke are deafening.

She disappears in the cloud. It swirls around her and she can swear there are "things" in the mist. Clawing, maddening, "things" of rage and pride and... justice.

Then, thanks be to Andraste the mist clears... but the horror before her is too much to bear. The Chantry is gone. Great coils of blackened smoke issue forth from the crater like dragons taking flight after terrible vengeance wrought upon mortal men.

She ignores all this and searches for her daughter. Her hands become bloody as she tears at the great stone blocks that are now strewn across the steps of the Chantry. Her nails splinter and break, but still she continues driven on by the strength of a mother who must save her daughter.

And there she is - a broken rag doll amongst all that marble. She clutches to the twisted arm of a cleric who's body disappears beneath a half-melted statue of Andraste that collapsed upon her. Your daughter. The pride of your life. The Maker's own gift... dead.

And the question is... why?

====

But hey, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs right?

Are you trying to make me somehow feel guilty?

Lol, yes, for what Anders wanted to achieve, it appears to have worked. By Varric's accounts, the Chantry is falling apart. Even ANDERS acknowledges he has to pay for what he's done, if you tell him that. He just says, "I know." Doesn't mean the mages aren't winning their freedom now.

The emotional bit about some little girl dying was both unnecessary and irrelevant.

Edited for clarity. And, time to go to work.

It was neither unnecessary nor irrelevent. 

1)  It was the real cost of Anders' "victory". 
2)  It shows why it's not likely to be a victory for Anders.  Whenever someone asks why the Chantry is fighting to subdue and imprison the mages, why Templars must hunt them down and cage them, they will be told the story of how an apostate used a spell of mass destruction to destroy a Chantry, kill anyone in it or nearby, and start off the entire war, in a city that was full of malificar.

[Killjoy Cutter]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
It's not about whether Meredith was ever right, or if the mages were ever right. It's about systematically punishing a group for the actions of individuals. If there's even one innocent mage in a Circle, then the Right of Annulment is unjustifiable.

Absolutely true.

[Goldens]

I was taken aback by the profound stupidity of Anders's action, but I had romanced Anders as a mage to get an interesting story, and I got one.

[Esoj16]

The amount of disgust I have for this thread and some of the people here is indescribable, I'm sure most of you would agree 9/11 was a horrible and senseless act of terrorism that has led to nothing but more death, what do you think will happen in thedas now? Mages, Templars, and innocent people alike will die left and right, and all because of the actions of a terrorist coward that killed any chance of compromise, compromise that was possible seeing how both the grand cleric and the knight-captain felt mages were being treated unfairly by the end of the game and how they along with the king of ferelden felt change was needed. Yet somehow you people condone and encourage his actions, sickening.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Goldens wrote...

I was taken aback by the profound stupidity of Anders's action, but I had romanced Anders as a mage to get an interesting story, and I got one.

Same. As long as the writers shape up I imagine a more interesting story to follow with him which is why I took the more turbulent path. I can't agree with the nobhead though.

[Maelora]

I cried with joy when Anders did that. My only regrets are that he didn't let me help, and that those Andrastians died waaaay too quickly and cleanly. My solution would have involved something slow and lingering and painful.

However, it would have made more sense to blow up Templar Hall. As vile as the Chantry was, it was pretty ineffectual in Kirkwall.

[Milana_Saros]

Link3521 wrote...

Yet somehow you people condone and encourage his actions, sickening.

I disagreed with his actions but still spared him and even ran away with him. Does this mean I'm a horrible, disgusting, immoral, terrorist person in real life?

I find it worrying that people can't tell the difference between video games and reality...it's starting to go rather far. Think it's time for me to wash my hands from all of this and just stay the hell away from this whole forum.

[Svest]

Majikks wrote...

Your kidding right? Please tell me you were not surprised... he already told you he was going to do something so bad he could not tell you lol. What did you think he just peed on the floor? haha From jump street he considered it war. He snuck into the chantry while you were a distraction. A terroist act?? Yes. I didn't know he would blow up the chantry with all in it, but I did know whatever he did was going to be aggressive. Meridith had to be stopped it was the only way he saw to insure that no one had any other option except to fight her or join her... he drew the line. Now the biatch goes down

Even more than that.  I knew exactly what he was going to be doing purely based on the ingredients he has you collect.  Sela Petrae comes from the sewers and sounds very similar to sal petræ which is Latin for saltpeter AKA potasium nitrate which was also traditionally made from manure or urine.  After that realization it wasn't a huge leap to go from drakestone to brimstone which is another name for sulfer.  Add in some charcoal and you have gunpowder.  I knew something was going to explode and as soon as he asked me to be a distraction in the Chantry I knew what.  I still went through with it because even though I knew what was coming there was no way for Hawke to know what made gunpowder.

Modifié par Svest, 21 mars 2011 - 07:34 .

[Dave of Canada]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

It's not about whether Meredith was ever right, or if the mages were ever right. It's about systematically punishing a group for the actions of individuals. If there's even one innocent mage in a Circle, then the Right of Annulment is unjustifiable.

It's unjustifiable to kill a few innocents to save more? It's better to leave the blood mages that are roaming the streets killing innocent people (or mind controlling them, which is worse), to let demons be summoned into the world to fight or incite open rebellion against the authorities?

It's better to stop the wound before it festers.

SurelyForth wrote...

But...no one cried out for blood. She just said they would.

... and how do you think people would've reacted? Just curious. I'm sure they'd be happy that a mage, something they all fear and make ridiculous rumors about, blew up their chapel and killed everybody inside including Elthina which was well loved by the people.

[Esoj16]

@Milana, reading comprehension is hard, forgiving someone doesn't mean condoning his actions, I understand those people that forgave him, I don't understand those that say the would be happy to help

[mesmerizedish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It's unjustifiable to kill a few innocents to save more?

Yes. I removed the rest because it doesn't matter. It begins and ends right there. Is it necessary anyway? Maybe. But that doesn't make it right.