709 réponses à ce sujet

[Iecerint]

Link3521 wrote...

I'm sure most of you would agree 9/11 was a horrible and senseless act of terrorism that has led to nothing but more death, what do you think will happen in thedas now? Mages, Templars, and innocent people alike will die left and right, and all because of the actions of a terrorist coward that killed any chance of compromise.

I don't think the parallel is very justified.  9/11 was done with timing and so forth intended to maximize casualties. 
Anders' action was not.  Also, Anders was not cowardly.  He accepts death for what he's done.

Anders would probably acknowledge that more death would result from his actions, but he thought it was preferable to the fundamentally unacceptable status quo.

Also, ye know, he's been possessed by a demon.

[Milana_Saros]

Link3521 wrote...

@Milana, reading comprehension is hard, forgiving someone doesn't mean condoning his actions, I understand those people that forgave him, I don't understand those that say the would be happy to help

I understood completely. There are just those to whom the only right option is to "kill the monster son of a ****!".

The point I was trying to make is that constantly comparing this to the 9/11 and saying people who post comments like "Glad he did that, wish I could've helped!" are sick is totally mind boggling. This IS a video game. Perhaps these people post these comments to intentionally provoke people who take video game events dead seriously (also known as trolling)? Or perhaps they simply treat it as a video game? Or perhaps they simply do not care?

Forums tend to dribble with drama but this is just...I have no more words.

[SurelyForth]

Dave of Canada wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

But...no one cried out for blood. She just said they would.

... and how do you think people would've reacted? Just curious. I'm sure they'd be happy that a mage, something they all fear and make ridiculous rumors about, blew up their chapel and killed everybody inside including Elthina which was well loved by the people.

I said what I thought she should have done- which was publicly execute Anders.

If not that, then just deal with the chaos in Kirkwall proper. The mages in the Gallows are, like I said, the innocents in all of this yet they're the ones she targets. And she doesn't even really care about Anders, in the end. She lets Hawke deal with him.

[Beerfish]

Also, ye know, he's been possessed by a demon.

Which really really hurts his case for freeing mages.  In  the end as someone at the time pointed out, perhaps Orsino that he set back the cause for years or something along those lines.  His act was the perfect proganda needed by the radicals like Meredith.  If you were a member of the majority of mages that were not radical I would suspect that your lives just got a lot tougher due to his actions.

Modifié par Beerfish, 21 mars 2011 - 07:42 .

[Esoj16]

I realize this is a game, obviously this discussion doesn't matter, Anders is not real and neither are the people he killed, they don't care what we think one way or another, what sickens me is how eager people are to help in such an attack, maybe it's just that the Internet brings out the worst in people but it worries me that I live in a world were people think such an action is acceptable

[Iecerint]

Beerfish wrote...

Someone pointed out, perhaps Orsino, that he set back the cause for years or something along those lines. 

IMO, this reasoning only works if there's evidence that things were actually going to get better for Mages.  They weren't.  The cost of no intervention, which we don't see, may not have been much different.  Drawing things out may've even led to worser outcomes.

It's easy for us to forget it because it wasn't necessarily handled well by the developers, but the game takes place over 7 years.  Thinking about Anders' action as a choice that occurs after 7 years of watching the treatment of mages rather than as something that happens over the course of 40 hours puts it into clearer perspective.

[SurelyForth]

Iecerint wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Someone pointed out, perhaps Orsino, that he set back the cause for years or something along those lines. 

IMO, this reasoning only works if there's evidence that things were actually going to get better for Mages.  They weren't.  The cost of no intervention, which we don't see, may not have been much different.  Drawing things out may've even led to worser outcomes.

It's easy for us to forget it because it wasn't necessarily handled well by the developers, but the game takes place over 7 years.  Thinking about Anders' action as a choice that occurs after 7 years of watching the treatment of mages rather than as something that happens over the course of 40 hours puts it into clearer perspective.

This. When we join him to deal with Alrek (Alrik?), we stumble over like 7 templars surrounding one scared girl, and she's all but offering herself up to them for the chance to be returned to her cell and NOT made tranquil. And then Alrek comes out and says "You'll do that even if you're tranquil."

So imagine seeing that sort of thing your entire life, and be subjected to that attitude of complete "I own you, you worthless **** and I could have you any way I wanted you" every day. 

Then imagine that you have a spirit inside of you that seeks such situations and is driven to right them. It's a minor miracle that Anders lasted 7 years in Kirkwall, especially in the years when he was heavily involved w. the Mage Underground. To him and to Justice, there is no worse because it's already so far past unacceptable that having the Rite invoked is worth the risk.

[panamakira]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you ever find yourself asking a "AM I the only one...'

No. No matter what the question is the answer is NO you are not.

Pretty much this.

[upsettingshorts]

Reckless idealism is easy - and utterly unremarkable - when the stakes aren't real.

[panamakira]

It's cool if you accept what he did and all but he technically blew up a "church" with innocent people in it. You either accept that or not but don't paint it something it's not.

[mesmerizedish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Reckless idealism is easy - and utterly unremarkable - when the stakes aren't real.

The topic got way more interesting after you left

COINCIDENCE?!?!

Yeah, probably.

[jadefishes]

I was upset on my first playthrough because my mage was romancing him and it was such a fundamental betrayal of trust between them. Being drawn into collusion on killing innocents after a full game spent trying to protect innocents? Yeah, it didn't go over well.

My second time through I tried not to be upset, since my rogue was neutral/friendly toward him, but it still came down to the betrayal of trust between close companions.

My third time through I'm playing a gruff warrior who doesn't really like anyone other than his sister, so I don't think it will be so bothersome.

[termokanden]

panamakira wrote...

It's cool if you accept what he did and all but he technically blew up a "church" with innocent people in it. You either accept that or not but don't paint it something it's not.

A lot of people in Kirkwall are responsible for the continual oppression and abuse of mages. There's hardly such a thing as an innocent person, and definitely not in the Chantry.

Modifié par termokanden, 21 mars 2011 - 08:20 .

[Miri1984]

My Hawke wanting to help Anders free the mages in Kirkwall through a calculated act of terrorism in a video game does NOT equate thinking 9/11 was a good idea. Truly, the leap of logic there is just too big. It's a fantasy RPG. He was in an untenable situation and saw no other options, and my Hawke felt his action was justified, appalling though it was.

If we're going to go down that ridiculous path of comparison then we also need to look at the equivalent situation in the real world which has virtually NO similarities with the situation in the game. Truly, the only thing they have in common is that they are both acts of Terrorism. The ONLY thing.

[Esoj16]

Yes obviously, my point is terrorism is a despicable act that should never be encouraged, specially when it does nothing but worsen the situation. The only reason I brought up 9/11 is because that's something every sane person can agree was a horrendous and monstrous act, obviously 9/11 is something touchy, given that it's a real thing that changed the entire world, I'm not saying anders' actions are even important, what's disgusting is people's thoughts about it's justifiability.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Link3521 wrote...

Yes obviously, my point is terrorism is a despicable act that should never be encouraged, specially when it does nothing but worsen the situation. The only reason I brought up 9/11 is because that's something every sane person can agree was a horrendous and monstrous act, obviously 9/11 is something touchy, given that it's a real thing that changed the entire world, I'm not saying anders' actions are even important, what's disgusting is people's thoughts about it's justifiability.

Look up the Sons of Liberty.  Acts of terrorism at its finest.

[mesmerizedish]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Look up the Sons of Liberty.  Acts of terrorism at its finest.

They weren't terrorists, they were freedom fighters!

[Rinji the Bearded]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Look up the Sons of Liberty.  Acts of terrorism at its finest.

They weren't terrorists, they were freedom fighters!

Tell that to the British.

What people seem to forget is that terrorism wasn't always viewed as being a negative, depending on what side you were on.  It doesn't defeat the fact that they were acts of terrorism.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 mars 2011 - 08:40 .

[mesmerizedish]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Tell that to the British.

Washington, Washington... six foot twenty, killing for fun.

He saves children, but not the British children.

[Esoj16]

I must have missed the part in history class where they blew up a building full of innocent people =\\

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Personally I would have blown up the Gallows. Sure you would have killed mages but you would have taken out far more Templars. Blowing up the Chantry didn't make sense.

[Rinji the Bearded]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Tell that to the British.

Washington, Washington... six foot twenty, killing for fun.

He saves children, but not the British children.

LOL. 

At any rate, they thought the Americans were getting mad over a very silly thing -- that was taxation without representation.  The taxes, as far as they knew, were being made so they could pay for wars that were fought to protect them.

[Esoj16]

Trust me, I agree with you on that statement, and also on the poster above you, had Anders not been a coward he would've attacked military organization responsible for the oppression of his people, an act of war yes but not an act of terrorism that led to the death of so many good and innocent people

[_Aine_]

Justice should have just used his connections in the fade to create an abomination army to scour Kirkwall clean of the corrupt then have Hawke et all clean up the abominations thereby having no-one blame an individual mage, if he was half-intelligent.

Crazy spirits, thinking inside the box.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Link3521 wrote...

I must have missed the part in history class where they blew up a building full of innocent people =

"The Sons of Liberty organizations responded to the Stamp Act of 1765 in
various ways. The New York Sons of Liberty declared in December 1765
that they would "go to the last extremity" with their lives and fortunes
to prevent the enforcement of the Stamp Act. This declaration included
the use of violence if necessary. Acts of rebellion against the Stamp
Tax in New York City included an incident from January 9, 1766 in which
ten boxes of parchment and stamped paper were delivered to City Hall and
immediately confiscated, unpacked, and burned by secret leaders of the
New York Sons group."

...

"Frequently, cooperation with undisciplined and extralegal groups (city
gangs) set off violent actions. Even though the Sons seldom looked for
violent solutions and eruptions, they did continue to elicit and promote
political upheaval that tended to favor crowd action."

Taken from here.

Many of those "Loyalists" were just doing their jobs.  Relatively innocent.

Not in the extreme case of Anders, but Dragon Age 2 is a work of fiction after all.  Terrorism is terrorism, though.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 mars 2011 - 08:52 .