709 réponses à ce sujet

[Miri1984]

Link3521 wrote...

Trust me, I agree with you on that statement, and also on the poster above you, had Anders not been a coward he would've attacked military organization responsible for the oppression of his people, an act of war yes but not an act of terrorism that led to the death of so many good and innocent people

That wasn't the point of the act. At all. It WAS an act of Terrorism. If Anders had attacked the Gallows, the logical reaction of the Chantry would have been to execute him. End of story. Crazy mage attacks Templars - I'm sure it's a story that's been told many many times, the common people go Yeah, whatevs, they signed up for it, who cares. HOWEVER, Anders chose to attack the Chantry, chose to attack people who were NOT involved in the mage/templar crisis along with the leader of the major religion in the area, who WAS, but most people wouldn't have seen her that way. Result = Moral outrage and a demand for action. The common people suddenly realise that this isn't just something confined to the realms of mage/templar and therefore are FORCED to pick a side. 

Attacking the Templars would have been useless for his cause. Attacking the Chantry sparked the war that he wanted.

[panamakira]

termokanden wrote...

panamakira wrote...

It's cool if you accept what he did and all but he technically blew up a "church" with innocent people in it. You either accept that or not but don't paint it something it's not.

A lot of people in Kirkwall are responsible for the continual oppression and abuse of mages. There's hardly such a thing as an innocent person, and definitely not in the Chantry.

There ARE innocent people in Kirkwall, a better word would be victims. I could make a list of circumstances in which there are people that DID NOT deserve to die but probably did because of Anders. That includes mages, templars and civilians. My biggest beef is with Meredith and Anders. What did taking extreme actions based on ideals lead them? Anders removes the compromise between the mages and the chantry by force, producing by his actions even more victims for the sake of his justice.

The biggest problem I have with Anders is the fact he does all of this while possessed by a demon. No matter what you do or say Anders blows up a Chantry for his just cause while being possessed. The irony in that amazes me. He in the end did prove mages are dangerous, did he not?

I, in no way support the Templars or the Chantry but I did not think there was no way to mediate the situation. People will argue there would never be compromise. I don't think Meredith or Orsino are the best examples. Meredith was heavily influenced by the idol, and Orsino went crazy at the end as well. Anders blew up a Chantry.

None of this people were in their right mind to make a desicion for the rest of the mages, templars and civilians. If Anders wouldn't have lost his struggle to Justice, Hawke could have exposed Meredith and eventually Orsino. But he didn't.

I have no idea what his actions have brought upon Thedas. I let him live so can see with his own eyes where deciding his justice for all mages will lead. It will not be as heroic and pretty as you guys may think. There is no way it can be. You think all mages will jump in the "I agree with Anders" wagon? A lot of the good, non-possessed, non-blood mages will have to pay for what he did and there is no justice for them either.

The best Hawke can do is try to survive whatever will be left of Thedas.

[Esoj16]

Agreed, your point? I'm not condoning their actions either, and as I've said, I could care less about anders' actions, what's disgusting is people's willingness to help with a terrorist action in a hypothetical case such as anders'

[theradicalpunk]

Yeah sorry Americans aren't locking up Muslims that spout the Koran and turning them into drooling idiots if they don't convert to Christianity. ON the other hand Muslim terrorists are killing anyone and everyone who doesn't follow their doctrine of faith.

So don't compare and equate what these sadistic ****s are doing to what a virtual character did.

[Esoj16]

@Miri, how is it helpful to anger people against innocent mages? Anders' actions were stupid because they are likely to have the opposite reaction to his goal, but don't get me started on that

[Rinji the Bearded]

Link3521 wrote...

@Miri, how is it helpful to anger people against innocent mages? Anders' actions were stupid because they are likely to have the opposite reaction to his goal, but don't get me started on that

The general public is very well told that mages are guilty until proven innocent.  "A quick death now or a slow death later."

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[Miri1984]

Link3521 wrote...

Agreed, your point? I'm not condoning their actions either, and as I've said, I could care less about anders' actions, what's disgusting is people's willingness to help with a terrorist action in a hypothetical case such as anders'

"Hypothetical" means "NOT REAL" by the way.

ETA: Not everyone would be blanket angry at mages. You can talk FENRIS into fighting with them! You forget that a LOT of people in Thedas have sisters, brothers, parents and children who are mages. They may not agree with what Anders did but it doesn't mean they will automatically side against the mages in a war.

Modifié par Miri1984, 21 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[Esoj16]

theradicalpunk wrote...

Yeah sorry Americans aren't locking up Muslims that spout the Koran and turning them into drooling idiots if they don't convert to Christianity. ON the other hand Muslim terrorists are killing anyone and everyone who doesn't follow their doctrine of faith.

So don't compare and equate what these sadistic ****s are doing to what a virtual character did.

Go back and actually ready my posts please, I'm in no way saying the situation of Islam and Christianity is in any way comparable to the Mages v Templar situation, or even mages v chantry, my only point was that terrorism is heinous and should have no justification, and no matter how much I agree that Mages were being oppressed and treated unfairly by templars, I cannot, nor should I, condone Anders' actions.

[Esoj16]

Miri1984 wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

Agreed, your point? I'm not condoning their actions either, and as I've said, I could care less about anders' actions, what's disgusting is people's willingness to help with a terrorist action in a hypothetical case such as anders'

"Hypothetical" means "NOT REAL" by the way.

No duh......but you know what's real? People's opinion on the matter, and sadly some people have a ghastly take on it.

[Esoj16]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

@Miri, how is it helpful to anger people against innocent mages? Anders' actions were stupid because they are likely to have the opposite reaction to his goal, but don't get me started on that

The general public is very well told that mages are guilty until proven innocent.  "A quick death now or a slow death later."

That's my point, how is Anders' helping his cause when he blew up a church with innocent people in it, including a much beloved public figure?  His actions are only going to make it worse on the mages, as is evident by the following slaughter of the mages, most of which turn into abominations and all because of Anders' actions.

Modifié par Link3521, 21 mars 2011 - 09:11 .

[Sabariel]

I don't think a peaceful solution was possible as long as both Meredith and Vengeance lived. The idol was making Meredith coocoo bananas (or more coocoo bananas, depending on your perspective). I think that if the Chantry hadn't gone boom that the catalyst would have instead been "Meredith" changing her mind about the Tranquil Solution. This conflict was always destined to end in violence.

[Miri1984]

@Link You have a black and white view of terrorism. Fine, I can understand that. However, I can't say in honesty if I was a part of an oppressed minority under the kinds of conditions Anders and the other mages were suffering that I wouldn't try to force the same sort of conflict, rather than continue to live with the same horrific status quo.

The acts of terrorism we see today tend to stem from blind faith and institutionalised brainwashing. They are appalling, but I don't regard those who perpetrate them as anything other than sadly deluded and mentally unhinged. The real culprits are the systems of thought which glorify those actions.

Anders' actions weren't glorified, he acknowledges that he's committed a heinous crime and is willing to accept his punishment. Do I believe it was justified? In these circumstances, yes. So we will have to agree to disagree.

[Esoj16]

Sabariel wrote...

I don't think a peaceful solution was possible as long as both Meredith and Vengeance lived. The idol was making Meredith coocoo bananas (or more coocoo bananas, depending on your perspective). I think that if the Chantry hadn't gone boom that the catalyst would have instead been "Meredith" changing her mind about the Tranquil Solution. This conflict was always destined to end in violence.

More than likely, doesn't mean we should cheer for either option, and trust me, I enjoyed getting rid of Meredith as well.  I do feel mages and templars could've found a more peaceful solution however, instead of the all out war that results at the end of DA2, evidence of that is the Ferelden circle and how Irving and Gregoire (I think that was his name) cared for each other.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Link3521 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

@Miri, how is it helpful to anger people against innocent mages? Anders' actions were stupid because they are likely to have the opposite reaction to his goal, but don't get me started on that

The general public is very well told that mages are guilty until proven innocent.  "A quick death now or a slow death later."

That's my point, how is Anders' helping his cause when he blew up a church with innocent people in it, including a much beloved public figure?  His actions are only going to make it worse on the mages, as is evident by the following slaughter of the mages, most of which turn into abominations and all because of Anders' actions.

No, they were doomed already.  Orsino was condoning everything out of his own despair.  Meredith WAS right in suspecting the mages because they WERE all abominations and blood mages.  Anders's actions actually helped to bring this all to light.

[Esoj16]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Link You have a black and white view of terrorism. Fine, I can understand that. However, I can't say in honesty if I was a part of an oppressed minority under the kinds of conditions Anders and the other mages were suffering that I wouldn't try to force the same sort of conflict, rather than continue to live with the same horrific status quo.

The acts of terrorism we see today tend to stem from blind faith and institutionalised brainwashing. They are appalling, but I don't regard those who perpetrate them as anything other than sadly deluded and mentally unhinged. The real culprits are the systems of thought which glorify those actions.

Anders' actions weren't glorified, he acknowledges that he's committed a heinous crime and is willing to accept his punishment. Do I believe it was justified? In these circumstances, yes. So we will have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough, I guess I just think people like MLK and Gandhi accomplished sooo much more than any act of terrorism ever could, so I tend to admire their actions and views and try to find peaceful resolutions to issues, I do this with the admitedly few issues in my life and I always roleplay the goody two-shoes for my cannon character.

Btw I'm not saying Anders is ALL bad, as much as I hate him, he was a compasionate character that did care for people other than mages, as demonstrated by his clinic in darktown, I just can't justify his actions.

[Sabariel]

Link3521 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I don't think a peaceful solution was possible as long as both Meredith and Vengeance lived. The idol was making Meredith coocoo bananas (or more coocoo bananas, depending on your perspective). I think that if the Chantry hadn't gone boom that the catalyst would have instead been "Meredith" changing her mind about the Tranquil Solution. This conflict was always destined to end in violence.

More than likely, doesn't mean we should cheer for either option, and trust me, I enjoyed getting rid of Meredith as well.  I do feel mages and templars could've found a more peaceful solution however, instead of the all out war that results at the end of DA2, evidence of that is the Ferelden circle and how Irving and Gregoire (I think that was his name) cared for each other.

Yeah, I don't believe peace could or would ever override the near millennia of bitterness that has built up. As for Greagoir, he's perfectly okay with annulling Irving and the other mages despite the fact that they are not even compromised. He "cares"... but only to a point.

[panamakira]

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

[Esoj16]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

@Miri, how is it helpful to anger people against innocent mages? Anders' actions were stupid because they are likely to have the opposite reaction to his goal, but don't get me started on that

The general public is very well told that mages are guilty until proven innocent.  "A quick death now or a slow death later."

That's my point, how is Anders' helping his cause when he blew up a church with innocent people in it, including a much beloved public figure?  His actions are only going to make it worse on the mages, as is evident by the following slaughter of the mages, most of which turn into abominations and all because of Anders' actions.

No, they were doomed already.  Orsino was condoning everything out of his own despair.  Meredith WAS right in suspecting the mages because they WERE all abominations and blood mages.  Anders's actions actually helped to bring this all to light.

Too true and too sad, though not all mages turned to blood magic, Bethany doesn't, and if you side with the templars there are three mages that inmediately surrender and beg for their life and Cullen actually lets them live because he believes them to be innocent.

[Miri1984]

@Link the problem with non-violent protests when you involve mages is that they're incapable of putting their weapons down.

[Iecerint]

Link3521 wrote...

I guess I just think people like MLK and Gandhi accomplished sooo much more than any act of terrorism ever could, so I tend to admire their actions and views and try to find peaceful resolutions to issues, I do this with the admitedly few issues in my life and I always roleplay the goody two-shoes for my cannon character.

Orsino had been openly attempting that since at least the start of Act 3.  The Mother "defused" the situation.

[Esoj16]

Sabariel wrote...


Yeah, I don't believe peace could or would ever override the near millennia of bitterness that has built up. As for Greagoir, he's perfectly okay with annulling Irving and the other mages despite the fact that they are not even compromised. He "cares"... but only to a point.

I think that's being a bit unfair to Gregoir, he's clearly conflicted about using the right of annulment, and he's clearly relieved when he sees Irving is well, but when you first get to the tower he's lost all hope of any survivors and so he chose what he thought was the only option.

[Robhuzz]

Don't worry, I LOVED what Anders did there. That feat was worthy of the word 'magic'. Strange part is, even though no magic like that was ever seen in Thedas (to my knowledge though the tevinter mage sacking of Arlathan would probably have been more spectacular) no one was actually surprised at how Anders managed it. Anyways, that's slightly off topic. I'll be supporting Anders all the way. Well, at least until Leliana comes along and forces me to chooce between killing Anders or Leliana, in which case I'll stop playing DA.

[Esoj16]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Link the problem with non-violent protests when you involve mages is that they're incapable of putting their weapons down.

They can't put their gift of magic down, but like the three mages I mentioned early, they can show their unwillingness to use forceful means.  I don't think the conflict could've been resolved without some use of force, but I do think there was a chance for a more peaceful solution.

[Oracle Thunder]

As for innocent deaths...I warned Elthina something was coming and being in the Chantry was dangerous. She decided to stay. Ok fine, but she should have sent others away at least.

[MorningBird]

Just because someone agrees with Anders actions in a video game does not mean they must support/condone 'terrorism' in our modern day world. The world we live in now is vastly different than the world of 100--or even 50--years ago. Our views on what is 'moral' and 'unjustifyable' have changed.

Let's not forget that once upon a time, cutting off a child's hands for THEFT was considered a fit punishment for the crime, and that medieval warfare once targeted rural towns and villages where many 'innocent' lives were lost in the name of greed and conquest.

DA is a medieval fantasy role-play game. That being said, it's perfectly acceptable for a player to judge the events in the game by 'medieval' standards (the standards of the setting) without holding the same 'standards' to the modern era.

I agree with what Anders did because I accept that the game takes place in a different world, in a different time, and that the 'modern expectations' I've set in place for our world may not apply to Thedas in it's current state or time.

Implying that someone supports terrorism in the real world simply because they feel a video game character's actions (in a completely different time and place than our own) were justified, and that they have a 'ghastly take' on what happened, is ludicrous.

Modifié par MorningBird, 21 mars 2011 - 09:34 .