709 réponses à ce sujet

[Heather Cline]

Nope not upset by what Anders did. Then again I never get too attached to a character in games. Yes I love a good rpg and a good story, but at the end of the day, it's just a game and a story to me. So getting upset over something as trivial as what a character does in game is moot for me. It made me sad at what he did, sure. It was meant to evoke emotion in me, but I'm not going to rant and rave and get all pissy about the way the story was written.

[Rhostadt]

I was quite shocked at first, but the more I think about it...

The Chantry, with the Grand Clerics and Divines at its head, are responsible for instigating the slavery and oppression of mages, elves, and even the Templars (hello lyrium!) Don't blame it all on the Knight-Commanders, said Grand Clerics and Divines out rank them, the Chantry is the parent organization. At first, I was sympathetic to what Elthina was trying to do. But she's arguably as responsible for the problems in the Gallows as Meredith because she had the ability to help, but stood by and did *nothing*. Elthina becomes fair game in this light.

Andraste Herself pulled down an entire empire for these same crimes. A few of the particulars have changed, but in my view the Chantry is the Evil Empire of the Dragon Age.

[Sarielle]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Of course - Bioware has decided to take a modern view and have this revolution work somehow. I say it's poor writing and a lack of knowledge of how historical events have traditionally played out - but I'm positive they could find at least one example in history to prove me wrong (probably ancient history moreso than medieval).

I want to post an in-depth response about how you are now saying exactly opposite of what you were arguing before (which was that th revolution/rebellion/whatever you want to term it didn't work) but too little sleep and too much cheap champagne with dinner has left me too lazy.

So, uh, you've completely reversed direction on this issue. And also, this is a fantasy setting, not medieval Europe.

[Medhia Nox]

I said - it "won't" work in the long run.

Someone else said that this was like medieval Europe and I shouldn't have modern views of "peaceful ways of resolving issues". It's not at all like medieval Europe - which we obviously agree upon.

You (you didn't say this Sarielle) can't treat the act of terrorism with "medieval Europe" goggles - whatever those are, presumably violent and barbaric (largely that would be correct) - and then say that my view of non-violence is uniquely modern (which, it definitely is NOT) and I shouldn't apply it.

I haven't changed my opinion at all... Anders act, was an act of terrorism. I do not agree with him, and I believe his act was completely counter productive to mage freedom.

And yes - the Warden DOES free the Ferelden Circle. His Boon allows them to practice freely from the Chantry and the Templars. Of course - you have to have a real leader on the throne (also known as Anora), not that moron Alistair (I'd love to see the correlation between people who like Alistair and people who like Anders - they're both very similar to me. Selfish - deceiving - deserters if they don't get their way.)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 04:30 .

[Sabariel]

Medhia Nox wrote...
And yes - the Warden DOES free the Ferelden Circle. His Boon allows them to practice freely from the Chantry and the Templars. Of course - you have to have a real leader on the throne (also known as Anora), not that moron Alistair (I'd love to see the correlation between people who like Alistair and people who like Anders - they're both very similar to me. Selfish - deceiving - deserters if they don't get their way.)

...No. You don't free the mages no matter who is on the throne. The Chantry rejects the boon and Alistair/Anora cannot do anything about that. The mages are not freed or even given more free reign. Nothing changes.

[Dan-mac RI]

Actually Medhia, I've seen somewhere on these forums a dev who flat out said that the Chantry doesn't have to actually listen to anything whoever you made ruler says.

Mages are traditionally deemed the Chantry's territory. The opinions of rulers are largely irrelevant to the chantry just like the catholic church in medieval times. That is one parallel that fairly stands up between DA and RL medieval; a very politically active religion. Mages are akin to heretics in that secular government typically has little to do with them.

So no, Medhia, there is no peaceful freedom for the mages, even if you ask for it. Unless, of course there is a lack of continuity and there is something said in DA2.

http://dragonage.wik...ilogue_(Origins) In wiki I trust.

[LobselVith8]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

He wanted to end a millennia of oppression, so no - you're not the only one. Had Anders done nothing, it's likely mages would have continued to be raped, tortured, forced to undergo the Right of Tranquility, and murdered for another thousand years by the Chantry and its Order of Templars.

Dave of Canada wrote...

By causing wars, killing thousands and blowing up buildings.

Yep.

Anders didn't kill thousands. The cutscene shows the Grand Cleric, at least one templar, with 4-5 members of the Chantry - an organization involved in the slavery of mages (as Hawke can say to Fenris when he sided with the mages and is speaking to Fenris at Meredith's side, and other characters use the term as well to describe the Chantry controlled Circle). Anders wanted to see the mages freed from slavery. If anything, it's a former slave attacking an organization currently involved in the slavery of his people. Anders wnated to show the mages of Thedas that they can stand up to the Chantry and the templars, so they can put an end to a thousand years of slavery, and his actions worked.

Some Geth wrote...

If you draw parallels to the real world it will make Anders look wrong that's why you don't want to do it.

The parallels of real world slaves rising up against their oppressors and emancipating themselves from slavery, you mean?

[MorningBird]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Actually - medieval Europe was not a place of great social upheaval.

No one is claiming that is was?

Perhaps you misread my post (or you are simply confused by what I meant when I brought up the 'medieval mindset') so let me try again.

Some people have implied that, in order to support Ander's actions, one must also condone the actions of modern day terrorists.

I countered this argument by pointing out that, by medieval standards, seeing violence as the best means to an end is perfectly acceptable in an RPG that takes place in a hostile medieval environment.

Basically, one need not support modern day terrorists to side with Anders.  It's called role-playing.

Considering the setting of the world, it's perfectly acceptable for someone to play a character that views Anders' violent attack against the chantry as unfortunate, but necessary.  As we see the world of Thedas through Hawke's eyes, it is also completely acceptable for a player to agree with Anders' actions without being 'crazy' or operating under 'flawed logic.'

In summary: the medieval mindset has nothing to do with social upheaval.

Medhia Nox wrote...
At least, not on the level of the common man. Common men almost never revolted in the way they did around the Age of Reason. The common peasant of Europe was property of a local Lord. Feudalism officially begins when the Carolingian Dynasty collapses in the 9th Century.

Feudalism was the primary form of European government during the medieval period. In this time, the common man was almost universally illiterate. They were property of land owners by varying names: Barons, Lords, etc. To hurt one was not an issue with "human rights" it was a matter of property damage.

So, before we start adding "human civic rights" to an argument - and then stating something about how medieval Europe was, let's cover the facts.

You're the one who brought up 'medieval Europe', so I think you're sparring with an invisible opponent on this one.

Everyone else has been discussing the 'medieval mindset', which isn't restricted to Europe (or even Earth) but refers to any 'medieval' setting where violent/abhorrent acts are more socially accepted as a means to an end than they are today.

In the modern era, we like peace.  We want to avoid violence at any cost, and anyone who tries to upset that peace is generally considered a monster by the mass majority.

That being said, Dragon Age =/= medieval Europe.  Dragon age is a medieval fantasy universe that draws inspiration from medieval Europe (and other places too, I'm sure), but if you hold up a picture of medieval Thedas to one of medieval Europe and expect them to be exactly the same, you're going to be disappointed, because as similar as our two worlds are, they're still very different.

Medhia Nox wrote...
It was probably not until the advent of gunpowder that the common man had any chance of truly overthrowing their government. Commoners did not have the resources to craft weaponry and armor. They could not assault castles, fight knights on horseback, or trained militia. There were no "armies" in the modern sense in medieval Europe. All the military groups were paid by local lords (the knights) and would likely not even think of assisting rebel commoners in overthrowing their meal ticket.

See, this is what I mean.  Thedas has explosives and mages with explosive powers.  They have enchantments, runes and lyrium.  They're going to develop differently.  It is still, however, a medieval universe.

Medhia Nox wrote...
That doesn't mean that some countries did not attempt to revolt against other countries. Scotland is notorious for its many revolutions, and William Wallace was a peasant (although notably educated in many subjects - probably including warfare). He was also a violent madman at least as cruel as his English oppressors (not that any of you have a problem with violence evidently). There is precedence - but it is few and far between - and most important NOT successful.

Not when role-playing a character in a made-up universe.

Medhia Nox wrote...
Mages are powerful, but they're also preyed upon by demons. This is a huge weakness as they are consumed by rage and pride spirits. Those spirits won't discriminate who they hurt. They will hurt villages, nobles, and soldiers alike.

I'm going to level with you.  I'm not actually against the circles.  However, there IS something very wrong with the way they are currently run and operated.

For starters, templar recruitment needs to be stricter.  Under no circumstances should someone like Alrick have been made a templar.  Not only does he go out of his way to scare the mages (and possibly rape the tranquil) but he's also insubordinate to the Order.  Both the Divine AND Meredith rejected his Tranquil Solution, but he continued to enforce it in private anyway.  This is the very definition of insubordination, and I highly doubt no one noticed when mages who had passed their Harrowing suddenly showed up in the courtyard as Tranquil.

It was the chantry and templar's DUTY to do something about him, and they didn't.  They just let Hawke clean up their mess, and made scowly faces when it was over and done with.

On that same front, templars who gossip about how much they 'enjoy killing mages' (Cullen mentions that such conversations frequently crop up amongst the templars, and this is in Ferelden) should either be severely reprimanded or booted out of the order, as they're the ones who will most likely abuse their power.

If you want to play the watchman, then you better hire men and women worthy to fill the position.

Then there's the matter of dragging children away from their families.  Apparently, only the privileged few with political sway can visit their children after they've been taken away to the circle.  The poor are threatened to either move on with their lives, or face the consequences.

Why do people like Isolde and Hawke get special privilege?  Maybe if you're lucky enough to have family that lives in the same city as the circle you'll be granted opportunities to see your family again, but this is obviously not the norm.

The mage girl Alrick corners says as much while pleading for her life.  She had family IN Kirkwall who were never told where she went or what happened to her.

Unfortunately, if you come from a poor family and the templars drag you away from your home to a circle in a different city, what chance do you have of ever seeing your family again?

I do find this to be unnecessarily cruel, and it's obvious it can have long-lasting damaging effects on the mages.

Honestly, there is just far too much rape, abuse, and outright cruelty going on in the circles for me to be comfortable with their continued existence.  Maybe if the chantry had shown some indication that they were willing to change the system (and be stricter with their templars) then I would be more supportive of them.

As it stands, the only one in Thedas with the power to make such a change is the Divine, and I highly doubt such pleas haven't reached her ears beforeap (considering Meredith aparently hears them all the time.)  She sees the mage fraternities as nothing more than something to be endured, and flat-out refuses to grant the mage boon in origins (with no 'compromise') even though it's at the direct request of the King/Queen of Ferelden, AND the Warden.

In that respect, I do understand the Grand Cleric.  She really was powerless to do anything because the chantry isn't interested in doing anything.  They're perfectly happy with allowing the mistreatment to continue.  That being the case, I give my support as a player to the mages.

Really, I think the Dalish have it right.  Abominations are uncommon among their people, but when it happens, they deal with it.  They don't live their lives in fear of their Keeper just because one day he/she might become an abomination, and in the event that it DOES occur, it's deemed a great tragedy.

Medhia Nox wrote...
The mages have no supplies, they have no support. Towns, cities, everyone will likely turn them away. Those Towers in cities might be "annulled" the old fashion way. We haven't seen them, it's true - but just turn ballista and catapults on the towers - and you won't have to fight the mages inside.

So, you've played DA3 then?  Lucky you.

Medhia Nox wrote...
I'll just hold up in the Ferelden Circle with Wynne (if she's still alive) and Irving - and the rest of the free Circle mages there (because my Warden freed them without terrorism).

Your boon was rejected, I think.

Modifié par MorningBird, 22 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[tankgirly]

No, you are not the only one.

[lockdown51]

Gamer, this is the nth thread you've started over this point so let it rest already. You're not the only one, so no you aren't special at all. People are very well divided over the issue, which I think is the point. Even so...

Mages are people born with guns in their hands. Regular people don't have guns with them at all times. No wonder the populous wanted the mages put down after they just had a major religious figure killed. Even if you take up the whole "medival mindset" that was proposed earlier in the thread, and assume that might makes right, then Anders was right and wrong. Right because he was the mightiest for a moment. Wrong cause Hawke can gut him like a pig and that would make Hawke the strongest and Hawke's point of view the right one. Might is right is a horrid slippery slop of reasoning.

To whoever said that we are trying to come to terms with the events of the game by comparing them to modern events; I'm sorry but no duh. That's how the human mind works. It matches new information with old information that is similar to the new situation. You know how a bowl works because your mind recognizes that bowl shaped objects can hold water. You don't relearn it every time you see a bowl. So of course people will consider the blowing up of a church as an act of terrorism.

To the person that said it wasn't a civilian building... Even if you aren't christian that is just such a social taboo. Have some decency.

To the person that said 6 people were killed. Fine, lets assume you are right and only 6 people were in the building at the time. What about all the debris that has to come down? That's not going to kill anyone? And fewer people have been killed and it been called a national tragedy on US news.

Which ever side of the fence you fall on you have to admit that it was a good part of the game that has everyone talking.

PS. Death to Anders that emo who started a revolt over a cat. My mage Hawke will forever be killing and reanimating him over and over and over...

[Gamer Ftw]

Wth are you talking about?  
this is the only thread I have started about anders stop lying.
The mage boon for ferelden was not rejected the bartender in the hanged man says the ferelden circle got it's freedom.
All hail ser pounce a lot the cat who inspired a new era of freedom for mages.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 22 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[sassperella]

lockdown, the chantry has nothing to do with Christianity and is an organisation in charge of the templars and the circle. The divine - the head was going to march on kirkwall and cleanse it of all mages including any innocents that got in the way (maybe you don't have the seb dlc). They killed thousands of Dalish elves because they didn't believe in Andraste . You can not compare the religion of the chantry to christianity and insulting people who point this out shows you just completely missed the point.

Also Thedas isn't modern day America, and some people feel that they should judge the game within the context of the game rather than be influenced by events from another time and another world. People are quite capable of deciding if his actions were just or not within the game context without being influenced by a modern world event that is unconnected.

Fenris was the only person who didn't have innocent lives on his hands at the end of the game out of the love interests. Isabella was indirectly responsible for many innocent lives in the qunari atrocity far more than Anders. Merril was responsible for the death of her keeper and possibly the deaths of her entire clan if you didn't pick the right option again possibly far more than Anders. Those are shrugged off because they aren't attached to the big 'T' word and I'm sure that's what Bioware wanted.

[Sabriana]

A templar told my Hawke that he blames Elthina for the stalemate, and he lays a lot of blame on the Grand Cleric.

That templar tells my Hawke that the Grand Cleric is to blame because of her "inaction, failure to fully support one side or the other, cruelly giving the mages the illusion of change, or that a rebellion would work somehow". That's not word for word, but it gives the gist of the templar's complaint.

The templar who tells my Hawke that? Cullen. The very Cullen who has already seen the worst that blood magic and possession has to offer.

As far as I (and my Hawke) know, Anders didn't use magic to blow up the Chantry. Maybe that should wake everyone up. You don't need magic to induce mass destruction. My Hawke stood right next to Anders before the Chantry blew up, and neither she nor I saw him use any kind of magic.

There really isn't a side that's clearly right or wrong in this game. All are wrong, and all are right. Meredith has been driven to extremes by the idol. Anders has been driven to extremes by many factors. Orsino has lost control of the circle and of himself. The Grand Cleric escalates everything by doing nothing more than deceiving the mages into believing that there could be a compromise (as per Cullen).

My Hawke killed Anders, but she did it out of mercy. After seeing what happened to Anders peace of mind, disposition etc. after almost killing the innocent mage-girl - had she not bonked him on the head, she knew the real Anders could never survive what he had wrought. Heck, he almost begs her to end him.

She sided with the templars to minimize the destruction and the possibility of mages everywhere now being hunted for what Anders did. Her sister is a mage, and Bethany never resorted to blood magic. My Hawke was a bit naive, and totally shocked when Meredith called for the Rite, but it was too late to back out (the game didn't let her ). She sort of thought they would just restore order - somehow, and then do damage control. Silly girl.

She went against Meredith and demanded that the surrendering mages not be murdered, and Cullen (of all people) sided with my Hawke. She was totally blown away when she saw that the majority of mages had indeed turned to blood-magic, even though she saw it throughout the whole game. I think there were more blood mages than regular mages in DA 2.  Heck, Merril and Bethany even fought with her, against their own kind.

Whatever is said, to me, the Chantry is at the root of all this. They control the templars, and they control the circles. Anders saw the pseudo compromise, and eliminated it. Through means other than magic. Terrorism? Indeed, by the pure definition of the word. But then again, Elthina was warned, and she arrogantly shrugged it off. She didn't even evacuate the church, just in case.

That said, it is a game, and my Hawke and I (as a real life person) are not interchangeable. She's a fantasy figure I enjoy playing. Heck, there were quite a few instances where I would have loved that my Hawke could have reacted differently, but the game simply wouldn't let her.

[MorningBird]

Sabriana wrote...

*snip*

*reads*

Wow, I really like your post and your Hawke play-through.  It sounds quite epic, from a storytelling perspective. xD

[Sabriana]

Thank you, MorningBird. The emphasis is on play-through, and that is my whole argument. I'm nothing like my Hawke, she is a whole different personality than I am.

When I heard Anders' request about the ingredients, my alarm bells went off immediately. My Hawke, on the other hand, was supremely naive about everything, and believed every word her friend said.

That said, it is a game. If people play their Hawkes as someone who approves of Anders' doings, then there's nothing to be said about that. Should they transfer their terrorist/activist/whatever Hawke's tendencies to real life, then that is whole other barrel of fish.

It's all about playing a game. My Hawke, and just about everyone else, mass-slaughters lots of people. Zevran is once again right .

Isabela incites a whole uprising, with many deaths as the result, and no one seems upset at that. If Anders deserves the knife, so does she. Merril's quest left my Hawke with having to wipe out her whole clan. That's a lot of deaths, not counting the bloodrage-thralls and the dominated people Hawke has to put down. My Hawke has to race through a city block, fighting every step of the way, to close the gas barrels that another terrorist/activist/freedom fighter/etc has opened. Many people died here as well, and even that crazy elf is stricken by the destruction the gas has brought onto the people.

As a matter of fact, out of the three, only Anders and Merrill see the havoc they wrought, and are deeply sorry for it. I don't know if Isabela has something to say, when I saw the journal entry that she wanted to talk to my Hawke at the Hanged Man, she was already in the keep and just about to go deadly on the arishok. Stupid me for not checking the journal earlier.

[Medhia Nox]

Firstly - I understand that this is a game where my actions were forced. It is not like I could stop Anders. This is my biggest problem with this game as a whole. Yes, I'm aware that sometimes "stuff happens" - but that ought to be prologue material, not something for which I paid 60$ for.

After it happens, I have no outlet for my reaction. It's just - kill Anders, or no? Then - FIGHT!

That's my second criticism of this scene. There is no empathy for the act. It just feels like another flashing explosion in an already tired series of flashy explosions. No gravity is leveled upon his act. It's a child knocking down the sandcastle of the schoolyard bully - and everyone in the audience cheers for him.

I'm just going to have to disagree with some of you people - and happily so. I don't find Anders charming, I don't think the fact that he left the Wardens over a cat (he says it, not me) cute, I think he is a violent, sociopath who chose to result to violence.

And yes, you CAN free the Circle of Ferelden with the Boon - it doesn't get rejected (it does if you choose that imbecile Alistair as your king, but again - that's players not choosing a leader like Anora, but a friend for the throne - so I'd question the maturity of that decision too.)

And Sabriana - there are people in this thread condoning this type of violence as themselves - not as "Hawke". That's transferring it to "real life". If I'm misreading them, I might apologize (not that it would matter), but I would also say that their opinions are poorly stated.

As for anyone who condones blowing up fantasy religious buildings based on real life hate for religion (I can't get over the fact that I get this impression from a lot of people). I'd seriously try to re-evaluate the quality of your secularism. If all it is, is apathetic hate for people you dislike, then it is at least as guilty as religion... and I don't see much worth in it.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 02:48 .

[Gamer Ftw]

It's not real life hate for religion it's disapproving of killing and enslaving people in the name of religion.

[Medhia Nox]

 "Enslaved" people don't get First Enchanters, they don't get to form Lucrosians, Aequatarians, LOYALISTS, and Isolationists (they would ONLY be Liberationists or the new Resolutionists).

They don't get to study magic. They don't get to educate themselves. They don't get to wear nice clothes. They don't get huge banquet rooms full of food (Ferelden Tower). They don't get finery of all sorts (both Ferelden and Kirkwall towers). They don't get gardens (Kirkwall tower).

I recommend reading: "Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas an American Slave"

Can we please stop belittling the term "slavery". You want to call it a "Gilded Cage" - that's fine, but that ISN'T slavery.

====

As for killing - you're aware the Kirkwall Circle was completely compromised right? You don't just "know" blood magic - you have to study it. Orsino (the First Enchanter) helped kill your mother - he assisted blood mages. We've been presented with no way of screening for "blood mages" - but if you're okay with mages who can summon rage and pride demons into the streets - that's telling. I'm not - I've got normal people to defend.

The whole city is built on a giant sacrificial alter from what I can discern (didn't finish finding all the papers, but it's what I've read on the boards)

I play a mage exclusively - in Ferelden, I never once saw any "slavery" and it's the ONLY time you actually get to play inside a tower. Blood magic is forbidden - and Jowan will be turned Tranquil by it - you know who wants that? Irving. We don't let serial killers roam the streets - why would anyone let demon summoners.

And I love how people say "Oh, my cute little Anders - he was possessed." So was Meredith - we don't even meet Meredith until act three. We know Anders is insane from Act 1. Meredith is under the influence of the idol. We're told that she is growing in her extremism - but what we're not told, is that the Circle is filling up with blood mages. We're led to believe (not myself really - I felt there was likely some reason she was being so extreme - that's why I kept on trying to talk to her) that the mages are victimized. I haven't played with Bethany, but your mother gets to visit her and says she seems happy - I think she even writes you a letter saying the Circle isn't that bad (correct me if I'm wrong, but other posters have said this). Meredith is rooting out blood mages. Turning "12 in the last year." Tranquil isn't a lot - are you against the death penalty? We send more people than that to death for crimes against the state (not to mention the hundreds that die in America's poorly designed prison system)

====

I wonder, how cool are you with the Tevinter Imperium - Gamer Ftw? They free the poor oppressed minorty - so I bet they're good right?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 03:54 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

SurelyForth wrote...

Iecerint wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Someone pointed out, perhaps Orsino, that he set back the cause for years or something along those lines. 

IMO, this reasoning only works if there's evidence that things were actually going to get better for Mages.  They weren't.  The cost of no intervention, which we don't see, may not have been much different.  Drawing things out may've even led to worser outcomes.

It's easy for us to forget it because it wasn't necessarily handled well by the developers, but the game takes place over 7 years.  Thinking about Anders' action as a choice that occurs after 7 years of watching the treatment of mages rather than as something that happens over the course of 40 hours puts it into clearer perspective.

This. When we join him to deal with Alrek (Alrik?), we stumble over like 7 templars surrounding one scared girl, and she's all but offering herself up to them for the chance to be returned to her cell and NOT made tranquil. And then Alrek comes out and says "You'll do that even if you're tranquil."

So imagine seeing that sort of thing your entire life, and be subjected to that attitude of complete "I own you, you worthless **** and I could have you any way I wanted you" every day. 

Then imagine that you have a spirit inside of you that seeks such situations and is driven to right them. It's a minor miracle that Anders lasted 7 years in Kirkwall, especially in the years when he was heavily involved w. the Mage Underground. To him and to Justice, there is no worse because it's already so far past unacceptable that having the Rite invoked is worth the risk.

What Anders did was monsterous and immoral. 

That said, yes, the Templars also have more than their fair share of the monsterous and immoral.  Like real police, they have plenty of well-meaning members, but there are people who join up for all the wrong reasons, and some of them should be put down like rabid dogs.

[Medhia Nox]

I definitely agree with you about the Templars - Killjoy Cutter. They can't be excused for their crimes - the Seekers were supposed to be the Internal Affairs of the Templars from what I understand - I also think I read somewhere that over the years the Seeker position declined as the Chantry became more corrupt. This was the failure of the Templars and the Chantry.

The Seekers should have been rooting out abuses - the First Enchanters should have had a direct ear to the Seekers who should operate separately from the Chantry and the Templars. The Seekers should be similar to the Wardens, but at the very least, beholden to the nations of Thedas. You're still going to get corrupt Seekers, like you will corrupt mages, Templars, Wardens, etc - but having them answerable to the state would be another faction in the mix for checks and balances.

[lockdown51]

@sassperella

I'm sorry, but as a historian, one of the first things you learn is that one's current place in time WILL color how one looks at anything in the past, even the made up past. You are right in saying this isn't modern America and that the Chantry is not the Church but parallels can and will be drawn if even subconsciously. One night even go so far as to compare the mages to the blacks.

Also, it has to be noted that the Church used to have standing armies. The knight orders are just satellites of the Church itself. Where do you think Bioware got the idea of the templar in the first place. There is even an order of knights called the Knights Templar.

You are right, Anders is the only one being labelled as the big "T" as you call it. Maybe because of the level of destruction he caused. Fenris killed people in his attempts to stay free. People side with him being okay because it is just about him and not the institution of slavery. Merrill gets her whole clan killed. Perhaps just another message in the game about the dangers of blood magic. However the argument has to be made that she would have been willing to pay the price herself but that is for another thread. Isabella should be called a terrorist. She is after all the reason the Qunari couldn't leave the city. Maybe she doesn't get called a terrorist because of just how self centered her actions are. She only wanted to save her own skin, not start a movement.

Anders had a cause. He wanted something bigger than himself. When people fight for a cause and kill people to further that cause they are called terrorists nowadays. But since you don't like that word, lets call him a Crusader. They have as good a reputation.

[SurelyForth]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
What Anders did was monsterous and immoral. 

That said, yes, the Templars also have more than their fair share of the monsterous and immoral.  Like real police, they have plenty of well-meaning members, but there are people who join up for all the wrong reasons, and some of them should be put down like rabid dogs.

The Chantry actually encourages the ones who sign up for the wrong reasons. The fanatics get promoted. Look at Cullen! After what he endured he's fairly broken, but his new, hard-line approach to mages is exactly what earns him the trip to Kirkwall and title of Knight-Captain. It's pretty much Meredith's behavior and the fact that it's allowed to go unchecked that brings him back to a more moderate view, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire system is broken.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 22 mars 2011 - 04:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

The mage boon for ferelden was not rejected the bartender in the hanged man says the ferelden circle got it's freedom.

David Gaider addressed this in a thread months ago.

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

This is apparent when you see the scene between King Alistair and Knight-Commander Meredith.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

 "Enslaved" people don't get First Enchanters, they don't get to form Lucrosians, Aequatarians, LOYALISTS, and Isolationists (they would ONLY be Liberationists or the new Resolutionists).

Yet we have characters in Thedas referring to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, including Hawke, so it's clearly a term we can address for the fourteen Chantry controlled Circles in Thedas.

Medhia Nox wrote...

They don't get to study magic. They don't get to educate themselves. They don't get to wear nice clothes. They don't get huge banquet rooms full of food (Ferelden Tower). They don't get finery of all sorts (both Ferelden and Kirkwall towers). They don't get gardens (Kirkwall tower).

Historically, some slaves wore nice clothes; it was a sign that their master had wealth. And the former slave who lead the rebellion against France in Saint Dominique, Toussaint L'Ouverture, was educated by his master.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I recommend reading: "Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas an American Slave"

The treatment of one slave in North America doesn't mean all slaves are treated the same way.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can we please stop belittling the term "slavery". You want to call it a "Gilded Cage" - that's fine, but that ISN'T slavery.

Characters in Thedas who do call it slavery clearly don't agree with you.

Medhia Nox wrote...

As for killing - you're aware the Kirkwall Circle was completely compromised right? You don't just "know" blood magic - you have to study it. Orsino (the First Enchanter) helped kill your mother - he assisted blood mages. We've been presented with no way of screening for "blood mages" - but if you're okay with mages who can summon rage and pride demons into the streets - that's telling. I'm not - I've got normal people to defend.

The only person we're told Orsino assisted was Quentin. And Meredith wants to commit genocide against every man, woman, and child in Kirkwall with magical ability for something they had nothing to do with.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I play a mage exclusively - in Ferelden, I never once saw any "slavery" and it's the ONLY time you actually get to play inside a tower. Blood magic is forbidden - and Jowan will be turned Tranquil by it - you know who wants that? Irving. We don't let serial killers roam the streets - why would anyone let demon summoners.

Wrong. Irving never saw the evidence against Jowan. And you know who signed the Right of Tranquility? Knight-Commander Greagoir. Irving even admits if it was up to him, things would be different.

Medhia Nox wrote...

 I haven't played with Bethany, but your mother gets to visit her and says she seems happy - I think she even writes you a letter saying the Circle isn't that bad (correct me if I'm wrong, but other posters have said this).

She supports the freedom of the mages at the conclusion of the storyline. She said her powers come from the Maker, and she can't believe it's His will for mages to be locked up. She admits she never knew how much freedom she had until she was imprisoned in the Gallows. She's also avoiding certain templars, likely the kind who rape mages (as Alain was).

Medhia Nox wrote...

Meredith is rooting out blood mages. Turning "12 in the last year." Tranquil isn't a lot - are you against the death penalty? We send more people than that to death for crimes against the state (not to mention the hundreds that die in America's poorly designed prison system)

The genocide of all mages in Kirkwall isn't the same as the death penalty.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I wonder, how cool are you with the Tevinter Imperium - Gamer Ftw? They free the poor oppressed minorty - so I bet they're good right?

Are the Chasind tribes like Tevinter? The Dalish clans? The nation of Rivain? I don't recall the free mages in those societies trying to create another Imperium.

[Medhia Nox]

After reading the first post you put that in LobselVith8 - they evidently "corrected" it after I played.

I put Anora on the throne by herself - Alistair left in a huffy rage because I wouldn't kill Loghain for him (I dislike Alistair almost as much as I do Anders). I got a slide where the mage tower was freed to study on their own.

As for Awakenings - it wouldn't be the first time choices in one game didn't matter for the next - look at Leliana, some people killed her - but here she is. Same with Zevran.

You can scream and cry about mage injustice all you want (as I said, I play a mage pretty exclusively, and I don't suffer any "slavery" in my playthroughs... as Warden or Hawke) - I believe what Anders did is actually separate - and judging him separately, I believe he's a monster and everything that is evil about mages in Dragon Age.

I will not agree with someone who likes him because he's "cute" or "has a cat" or "helps Fereldens in a clinic" or because "he was the first rock'n gay romance I could have in an RPG!". If you don't think evil people sometimes do good things to justify their evil acts - I recommend reading up on some evil people throughout history.

If I had been able to react to the event - perhaps I would have seen it as more of a story element. As it was, I felt it was treated extremely immaturely. "Terrorist act! Melodrama! NOW FIGHT!" I think it's sad that deeper discussions are being had outside of the game than what happened in the game.

But to think that this act was justified - I don't even want to agree with a person like that.

====

As for the Dalish clans - she does say they hunt down Maleficar, just like the Templars do. There are obviously far fewer Dalish mages as we only ever see one Keeper and one Student (are they called something?) .

====

I bet you think I'm pro-Templar LobselVith8 - you would be wrong.

As for whatever Templar rapes mages - yeah, because mages never rape people, only Templars. You want to condemn an entire organization (two actually - the Templars and the Chantry) for the acts of some of their members.

At least I'm consisten... I condemn all three organizations for the acts of their members. I don't play favorites and ignore the evil of the Circle out of convenience.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 04:51 .