709 réponses à ce sujet

[theradicalpunk]

Link3521 wrote...

theradicalpunk wrote...

Yeah sorry Americans aren't locking up Muslims that spout the Koran and turning them into drooling idiots if they don't convert to Christianity. ON the other hand Muslim terrorists are killing anyone and everyone who doesn't follow their doctrine of faith.

So don't compare and equate what these sadistic ****s are doing to what a virtual character did.

Go back and actually ready my posts please, I'm in no way saying the situation of Islam and Christianity is in any way comparable to the Mages v Templar situation, or even mages v chantry, my only point was that terrorism is heinous and should have no justification, and no matter how much I agree that Mages were being oppressed and treated unfairly by templars, I cannot, nor should I, condone Anders' actions.

I don't condone Anders actions, and I'd hope anyone with a level head wouldn't either or some semblance of intelligence. I can see WHY he didn't. But the argument as it stands in many threads as well as this one truely an act of terrorism? The high cleric is not a soft target. She is not simliar to the pope or any other religious figures in the real world. She has power over military forces. She could in fact put down a mage or make them tranquil. She has the power to cause seriously bodily harm and/or death.

Terrorism is defined ( at least by merriam webster and those whom agree ) as the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal. Anders wasn't trying to frighten anybody. He didn't plant a magical bomb in the bazaar or some noble's home. The chantry is not a soft target. It is a place of religion that houses men and woman who have control and status of military forces. Who was trying to achieve a poltical goal. But wars todate having been fought with poltical goals in mine.

Now where innocents involved? Undoubtely. That bomb makes modern day IRL IEDs look like chump change. There was more then likely colleteral damage. But people of theades are/where being opressed for a status they couldn't control. Unjustly I might add.

Though Anders methods where/are extreme doesn't mean one man/woman Hawke has the right to put the crazy mage. But what has also been said Thaedas isn't Earth. We don't have scripts of law and codes of conduct when dealing with situtations of this severity.

Anders made change for good or bad. As Flemmeth said. I'm not upset by what Anders did, but his methods where seriously out of perspective. People need to stop using religion as the defense here. Because if you put a sword, bow, or magic in a religious figures hands and they use that in means to instill order, etc, they are by no means a soft target. Seeing as the chantry controls the sword (the templars) they are not innocents.

All in all it doesn't matter. I wouldn't be upset with anyone killing that crazied magister's son for hurting and touching the little elven children. Doesn't mean I condone individuals taking action into their own hands. But once again Thaedas is not Earth.

[Sarah1281]

She sided with the templars to minimize the destruction and the possibility of mages everywhere now being hunted for what Anders did. Her sister is a mage, and Bethany never resorted to blood magic. My Hawke was a bit naive, and totally shocked when Meredith called for the Rite, but it was too late to back out (the game didn't let her ). She sort of thought they would just restore order - somehow, and then do damage control. Silly girl.

But...doesn't Meredith call for the Rite of Annulment before you're even asked to pick sides?

[Sarielle]

sassperella wrote...

lockdown, the chantry has nothing to do with Christianity and is an organisation in charge of the templars and the circle. The divine - the head was going to march on kirkwall and cleanse it of all mages including any innocents that got in the way (maybe you don't have the seb dlc). They killed thousands of Dalish elves because they didn't believe in Andraste . You can not compare the religion of the chantry to christianity and insulting people who point this out shows you just completely missed the point.

Overreact much?

The Chantry has TONS OF PARALLELS to Christianity and Crusades (hellooooo "holy wars" over, in part, somebody having a different religion). In particular, it has a lot of parallels with the Catholic church. And I say that as a Catholic.

Don't be so hyper sensitive.

[lockdown51]

The Grand Cleric would be equivalent to a Cardinal. And if religious figures don't have some sort of immunity (which has been almost universal in that it is frowned upon to kill someone of the cloth of any faith) then I would hate to see what you consider a "soft" target. And you can't, I repeat, CANNOT take the religion out of the equation. Whatever your stance on religion as a whole or the Chantry, there is no denying it plays a major part in how Thedas formed, just like magic played a huge role in how Thedas formed. From the rise and decline of the Imperium, to the starting of the Blights, to the spreading of the Chantry, magic and religion have been intertwined.

Also, as I have stated before, the Papacy used to be very involved in wars and kept standing armies and was still considered a soft target. If the ability to cause harm is your criteria for a soft target then there are no soft targets in the world. Everyone has the ability to cause harm, just on different scales.

How has Anders not frightened anybody? Tell me that you would not have crapped yourself after seeing that big boom if you were actually there. I think Anders scared a lot of people, like the entire city and maybe neighboring cities who saw the big flash. It says in the epilogue that Anders was the start of the revolt. A revolt that is changing how the world has run for the last 900 years. That sounds like political change to me.

[Medhia Nox]

I am actually pro - Aveline and the Guardsmen. ((That sounds like a musical group)).

Both the mages and the Chantry (the Templars are included here) need to be brought to heel. Evidently one similarity they follow is pre-Holy Roman Empire Catholicism. All the nations of Thedas seem to bend to the will of the Chantry. It wasn't until Emperor Frederick I challenged the might of the Papacy, followed by the English (France and Spain were predominantly devout Catholic nations).

I'd do what Henry the VIII did (with a lot less misogyny - and a helpful dose of sanity) - and separate my nation from the Divine and declare myself head of the Kirkwall Chantry. The Divine can't call an Exalted March to Kirkwall - she'll be too busy, but let's assume she did.

1) Retake the tower killing any mages that resist - those mages that do not resist enter confinement until assessments can be made.

2) Gather all Templars that remain loyal to the state - dissolve their association with the Chantry, and allow any Templar who wishes to leave at this stage full amnesty. They cannot remain in Kirkwall, and they are not allowed to remove more goods than they can carry on one horse (whether they have a family or not). During the assault by the Ottoman Turks - the Emperor of Constantinople forced all families out of the city that could not support themselves. Resources will be needed in the city.

3) After re-instituting the Templars as a branch of the City Guard - I would evaluate each mage independently. Blood mages would be killed immediately. Those who wish to choose the life of an apostate, but cannot be confirmed as blood mages would be allowed to leave with whatever they could carry on the back of a single horse.

Those who wish to stay would be allowed to purchase genuine lodging, or be allowed to remain in the tower for free. They would be registered with the state as mages - any mage not registered in the future will be fined, evaluated, and dealt with accordingly.

Mages would be employees of the state (they are free to choose exile) - they would be paid a stipend (more if they purchase their own homes, less if they seek lodging in the Circle tower). Any mage that chooses Tranquility would have his family provided for while he serves the state as a sanctioned Enchanter (Tranquil are also highly focused, there are many roles they could fulfill).

Violent spells would be prohibited, and all known magics must be registered.

4) Mages and Templars would be allowed to serve in the Kirkwall Military - these would be the only mages allowed to learn military spells. The military would then set about re-structuring Kirkwall. The Gallows would become a fortress - not a prison.

5) Fereldens would be allowed to join the new state - or would be provided with ships to head back to Ferelden. They would no longer be allowed to squat in Low Town. They will become proper citizens, or they will leave.

6) Wait for the Exalted March to reach my gates and fight it off.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sarielle wrote...

Just got back from work. Let's see.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Did they work? We don't know.

=====

A mother is buying goods in the market section of High Town, her daughter is playing on the steps of the Chantry - Andraste and the Maker watching over her - surely she is safe in the hands of the sisters.

Then, the Chantry explodes. The mother drops her basket full of fresh vegetables and cured meats. She runs to the site - only to see people fleeing. Covering their mouths with their hands or spare cloth. Covered in blood - they don't even give her a sideways glance as she cries for her daughter. The screams within the great plumes of smoke are deafening.

She disappears in the cloud. It swirls around her and she can swear there are "things" in the mist. Clawing, maddening, "things" of rage and pride and... justice.

Then, thanks be to Andraste the mist clears... but the horror before her is too much to bear. The Chantry is gone. Great coils of blackened smoke issue forth from the crater like dragons taking flight after terrible vengeance wrought upon mortal men.

She ignores all this and searches for her daughter. Her hands become bloody as she tears at the great stone blocks that are now strewn across the steps of the Chantry. Her nails splinter and break, but still she continues driven on by the strength of a mother who must save her daughter.

And there she is - a broken rag doll amongst all that marble. She clutches to the twisted arm of a cleric who's body disappears beneath a half-melted statue of Andraste that collapsed upon her. Your daughter. The pride of your life. The Maker's own gift... dead.

And the question is... why?

====

But hey, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs right?

Are you trying to make me somehow feel guilty?

Lol, yes, for what Anders wanted to achieve, it appears to have worked. By Varric's accounts, the Chantry is falling apart. Even ANDERS acknowledges he has to pay for what he's done, if you tell him that. He just says, "I know." Doesn't mean the mages aren't winning their freedom now.

The emotional bit about some little girl dying was both unnecessary and irrelevant.

Edited for clarity. And, time to go to work.

It was neither unnecessary nor irrelevent. 

1)  It was the real cost of Anders' "victory". 
2)  It shows why it's not likely to be a victory for Anders.  Whenever someone asks why the Chantry is fighting to subdue and imprison the mages, why Templars must hunt them down and cage them, they will be told the story of how an apostate used a spell of mass destruction to destroy a Chantry, kill anyone in it or nearby, and start off the entire war, in a city that was full of malificar.

...no. None of what you said changed a SINGLE THING I said.

1) I'd have had no problem if they'd decided to show old Elthina and whoever else having a good prayer right before things go boom. Go for the pathos. That's fine. The game doesn't suggest there are no casualties -- quite the opposite. Everyone knows the grand cleric bought it.

2) If Cassandra hadn't been desperately seeking the champion to fix things, I might agree with you. As it stands, mages seem to be doing pretty damn well for themselves. Anders' actions incited FELLOW MAGES to action, which imo was his desire all along.

All that little tear-jerker of a scenario did was attempt to play on emotions instead of appealing to logic. I take exception to that.

The human cost is a hard fact, not something that can be brushed aside as "emotional". 

[Gamer Ftw]

Medhia Nox wrote...

 "Enslaved" people don't get First Enchanters, they don't get to form Lucrosians, Aequatarians, LOYALISTS, and Isolationists (they would ONLY be Liberationists or the new Resolutionists).

They don't get to study magic. They don't get to educate themselves. They don't get to wear nice clothes. They don't get huge banquet rooms full of food (Ferelden Tower). They don't get finery of all sorts (both Ferelden and Kirkwall towers). They don't get gardens (Kirkwall tower).

I recommend reading: "Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas an American Slave"

Can we please stop belittling the term "slavery". You want to call it a "Gilded Cage" - that's fine, but that ISN'T slavery.

====

As for killing - you're aware the Kirkwall Circle was completely compromised right? You don't just "know" blood magic - you have to study it. Orsino (the First Enchanter) helped kill your mother - he assisted blood mages. We've been presented with no way of screening for "blood mages" - but if you're okay with mages who can summon rage and pride demons into the streets - that's telling. I'm not - I've got normal people to defend.

The whole city is built on a giant sacrificial alter from what I can discern (didn't finish finding all the papers, but it's what I've read on the boards)

I play a mage exclusively - in Ferelden, I never once saw any "slavery" and it's the ONLY time you actually get to play inside a tower. Blood magic is forbidden - and Jowan will be turned Tranquil by it - you know who wants that? Irving. We don't let serial killers roam the streets - why would anyone let demon summoners.

And I love how people say "Oh, my cute little Anders - he was possessed." So was Meredith - we don't even meet Meredith until act three. We know Anders is insane from Act 1. Meredith is under the influence of the idol. We're told that she is growing in her extremism - but what we're not told, is that the Circle is filling up with blood mages. We're led to believe (not myself really - I felt there was likely some reason she was being so extreme - that's why I kept on trying to talk to her) that the mages are victimized. I haven't played with Bethany, but your mother gets to visit her and says she seems happy - I think she even writes you a letter saying the Circle isn't that bad (correct me if I'm wrong, but other posters have said this). Meredith is rooting out blood mages. Turning "12 in the last year." Tranquil isn't a lot - are you against the death penalty? We send more people than that to death for crimes against the state (not to mention the hundreds that die in America's poorly designed prison system)

====

I wonder, how cool are you with the Tevinter Imperium - Gamer Ftw? They free the poor oppressed minorty - so I bet they're good right?

I was talking about the mages they make tranquil actually.
They use them as free labor.
They strip all emotion and then rape them and use them.
How is that not slavery?

[Medhia Nox]

Owain can answer that better than I can Gamer FTW

[Killjoy Cutter]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Owain can answer that better than I can Gamer FTW

Ferelden Circle != Kirkwall Circle, at least based on what we're shown in the two different games. 

[Gamer Ftw]

That isn't really an answer is it?

[MorningBird]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Owain can answer that better than I can Gamer FTW

Karl, as a Tranquil, had a very similar opinion to Owain.  When given the chance to feel 'emotions' again, however, it was made quite clear that he considered being made tranquil a fate worse than death and, in fact, requested death to end his suffering.

Makes me wonder what Owain would say about the entire ordeal if given the same opportunity.

[Medhia Nox]

Yes, but Anders has made a decision for all Circles.

If he had attacked Meredith with his magic - not a bomb. I wouldn't have cared. If he had led a revolt of the mage tower from within - I wouldn't have cared.

He has forced every man, woman, and child in Thedas to take sides - whether they want to or not. He's a super villain in the purest form of the concept. It's like Magneto taking nukes and threatening the world with them. The imbecile has put every mutant across the planet in danger with his idiotic stunts.

[Medhia Nox]

Owain tells you that he volunteered for Tranquility.

You despise Tranquility - because you don't have demons literally clawing at the back of your mind. Honestly - the only comparison that can be made is someone like a serial killer in real life. Voices always telling them to do naughty things - they only resist for so long. Is it "cruel" to lock them away forever - drugged and useless? That's even worse than Tranquility - because at least the Tranquil are productive.

[Gamer Ftw]

If he had attacked with magic and not a bomb the end result would be the same.
lots of mages resist demons thier whole life and are nice people.
Bethany and her father never gave in or seem inclined to.
nor does irving or wynne.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 22 mars 2011 - 08:21 .

[MorningBird]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Owain tells you that he volunteered for Tranquility.

Doesn't mean he would still think it was 'awesome' if given the chance to feel human emotions again.

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, that's what I'm saying.  I would be curious to know what his opinion on the matter would be, if granted an opportunity (like Karl) to 'feel' again.

Whether or not you volunteer for something is irrelevant.  People volunteer for things all the time only to regret them later.

Heck, Fenris fought for his markings, participated in the procedure of his own free will.  Doesn't mean he didn't regret them later.

Modifié par MorningBird, 22 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Not all the tranquil volunteer anyway.

[Medhia Nox]

Irving and Wynne are Circle mages - as was Bethany and Hawkes father. They went through the Harrowing. I can't argue Bethany and Hawke - they've got the convenience of the writer on their side.

It's not "what" he attacked with - it's "who" he attacked. Meredith is the problem... even the Templars are the problem. I find his act so incredibly cowardly. If he had attacked Meredith directly - I find that to be what a courageous person would do. Now, I don't necessarily agree with it - but I could respect that a lot more than blowing up a Chantry.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." - Mahatma Gandhi

[Killjoy Cutter]

Despite the Chantry's FUD tactics regarding mages, it seems pretty clear that most mages aren't continuously or even routinely harrassed and tempted by a host of demons.

Other than a few specific instances, mage Warden isn't bothered by demons attempted to turn him/her, and mage Hawke is never bothered by demons doing the same. 

[Gamer Ftw]

The only way to peace is through war.

[MasterSamson88]

MorningBird wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Owain tells you that he volunteered for Tranquility.

Doesn't mean he would still think it was 'awesome' if given the change to feel human emotions again.

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, that's what I'm saying.  I would be curious to know what his opinion on the matter would be, if granted an opportunity (like Karl) to 'feel' again.

Whether or not you volunteer for something is irrelevant.  People volunteer for things all the time only to regret them later.

Heck, Fenris fought for his markings, participated in the procedure of his own free will.  Doesn't mean he didn't regret them later.

Didn't Karl in tranquil mode seem to believe that what was done to him was A-okay anyway? Only totally change that response as soon as he got his feelings back?

I mean for all we know Owain had the same thing done to him, told after he was made tranquil that he chose this of his own free will. When perhaps he didn't. It really is hard to say, but it definetly seems that tranquil tend to not have many memories that go before they were actually made tranquil.

[Medhia Nox]

But on a game developer level - you can't code all that extra "demonizing" into Hawke mage and Warden.

As far as the Warden is concerned - "Real tests are never over." - Signed, Pride Demon you meet in the Harrowing.

So I'd actual argue that thematically - yes, the Warden is constantly being tested by the Pride demon from his Harrowing.

=====

Oh, and Gamer FTW - that hasn't worked yet.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[Gamer Ftw]

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.
The templars and the chantry have become bigger monsters than those they pursue.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 22 mars 2011 - 08:44 .

[Serelir]

I'm coming in late to this discussion, but I disagree with the idea that self-determination for mages inevitably leads to a Tevinter-like tyranny. I always play as a mage, and wasn't a blood mage this go round. It's pretty amazing that I managed to get through the game without being lobotomized - I mean, made Tranquil - or possessed by demons. Though the writers made almost every mage in the game a blood mage, I don't think blood magic is more powerful or attractive to magic users than the other branches of magic. Being locked in a tower and constantly watched is a form of torture.

So, in the end, even though I was sorry to see innocent (if misguided) people die, I had to side with Anders. I was hurt that he involved me without telling me, but as many have said, there was no peaceful path offered in the game.

If it were a real life religious war, I don't think I'd be for blowing things up, but I haven't been locked up and abused by Templars. I had one Protestant ancestor burned by a Catholic queen, and another who tortured Catholics. It doesn't take the threat of magic to drive people to such extremes. I'm often amazed by how one oppressed group of people will turn around and oppress someone else.

I would always choose the diplomatic option if it were available. I wish the game had offered a way to reconcile, albeit making it a challenge to achieve. But then we wouldn't have had all the boss battles at the end.

[Gamer Ftw]

Lol I had ancestors burned as witches.
Misguided religion can lead to horrible things.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 22 mars 2011 - 08:54 .

[MorningBird]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Didn't Karl in tranquil mode seem to believe that what was done to him was A-okay anyway? Only totally change that response as soon as he got his feelings back?

I mean for all we know Owain had the same thing done to him, told after he was made tranquil that he chose this of his own free will. When perhaps he didn't. It really is hard to say, but it definetly seems that tranquil tend to not have many memories that go before they were actually made tranquil.

That is pretty much what happened, yes, and it's why I'm curious as to what Owain's opinion on the matter would be if given the same chance to feel real emotions again.

However, I don't think Owain was lying about volunteering.  Even though Karl is perfectly 'happy' to be made Tranquil (while Tranquil), he still fully remembers why he was made tranquil, and says as much to Anders ("The templars knew I had to be... made an example of.")