709 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeowyn]

Not to mention that him being made tranquil in the first place went against Chantry law. Funny how the Grand Cleric doesn't seem to take notice to the increase of Harrowed mages who are made tranquil.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Aeowyn wrote...

Not to mention that him being made tranquil in the first place went against Chantry law. Funny how the Grand Cleric doesn't seem to take notice to the increase of Harrowed mages who are made tranquil.

The codex entry on her implies that she's very dependent on Meredith.  Of course she wouldn't take sides or say anything.  I felt bad for her, and I liked her, I really did.  But she was absolutely useless.

[Aeowyn]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Not to mention that him being made tranquil in the first place went against Chantry law. Funny how the Grand Cleric doesn't seem to take notice to the increase of Harrowed mages who are made tranquil.

The codex entry on her implies that she's very dependent on Meredith.  Of course she wouldn't take sides or say anything.  I felt bad for her, and I liked her, I really did.  But she was absolutely useless.

Yes I agree. However, I got the feeling that even though she was dependant on Meredith, Meredith still backed down when the Grand Cleric asked her to.

[Melca36]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

You aren't alone. One of my characters let him live and ran off with him.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Melca36 wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

You aren't alone. One of my characters let him live and ran off with him.

My Hawke would've handed him the goddamn match if he'd let her.  Which is probably why he didn't let her.  On a friendship path with a Hawke who actually agrees with Anders, I got the impression that he was lying to her to protect her from the fallout.  Stupid, but sweet.

[Sarielle]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sarielle wrote...


...no. None of what you said changed a SINGLE THING I said.

1) I'd have had no problem if they'd decided to show old Elthina and whoever else having a good prayer right before things go boom. Go for the pathos. That's fine. The game doesn't suggest there are no casualties -- quite the opposite. Everyone knows the grand cleric bought it.

2) If Cassandra hadn't been desperately seeking the champion to fix things, I might agree with you. As it stands, mages seem to be doing pretty damn well for themselves. Anders' actions incited FELLOW MAGES to action, which imo was his desire all along.

All that little tear-jerker of a scenario did was attempt to play on emotions instead of appealing to logic. I take exception to that.

The human cost is a hard fact, not something that can be brushed aside as "emotional". 

It's a fact, but it's still irrelevant to the point I was making. Which was, ANDERS' PLOY SEEMS TO HAVE WORKED. From all we can tell, he appears to have accomplished precisely what he set out to. I know you want to keep emphasizing what a terrible person I am for not allowing a debate about imaginary people, by the way to get de-railed by that image of pathos, but honestly.

I'm starting to believe you are deliberately missing the point.

EDIT: This is how this conversation feels, lol.

Me: (standing free and clear outside prison, no immediate signs that we'll be recaptured) "Yay, our jailbreak worked! High five!"

You: "No, it didn't work. You killed a fry cook in the kitchen on the way out, and she was totally innocent."

Me: "But we're still out of jail...."

Modifié par Sarielle, 22 mars 2011 - 10:37 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Am I evil if I laughed at the dead fry cook?

[lockdown51]

I don't think people are disagreeing that Anders accomplished what he set out to do; what is being debated is whether the ends justify the means.

Gamer, I don't think laughing that fry cook makes you evil, just jaded or callous.

[Kitimandiri]

lockdown51 wrote...

Gamer, I don't think laughing that fry cook makes you evil, just jaded or callous.

Bullsh*t that fry cook was innocent. You know s/he was totally spitting in people's food.

[Killjoy Cutter]

lockdown51 wrote...

I don't think people are disagreeing that Anders accomplished what he set out to do; what is being debated is whether the ends justify the means.

Not only do the ends not justify the means, they won't even be accomplished by the means.  For generations, people will point to that moment to justify whatever is done to "keep us safe from the mages". 

[Sarah1281]

Only if the mages lose.

[Kitimandiri]

I always think of my favorite history teach when I think about this topic. She presented the founding of America as a series of terrorist acts against England, i.e. the Boston Tea Party. It always gave me a lot to think about. In this case I don't think it provides any justification.

My .02 is that change is not brought about in a smooth process. Something has to be destroyed for change to happen; what was there is gone to one degree or another. Anders had full knowledge of his act and was willing to accept death for it without struggle for it from his leader (Hawke).  He wasn't insane (per legal definition in court) at the time of the act. I think that's why I'm not upset by what he did. I wouldn't have done it, but then again I wouldn't be in his position in the first place.

Less seriously, I snorted my drink when Sebastian started saying Hawke wouldn't be waffling around about killing Anders if Seb had been in the chantry. My Hawke would have busted out the party mixers and declared a day off.

Edit for clarification.

Modifié par Kitimandiri, 23 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[Sarielle]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

I don't think people are disagreeing that Anders accomplished what he set out to do; what is being debated is whether the ends justify the means.

Not only do the ends not justify the means, they won't even be accomplished by the means.  For generations, people will point to that moment to justify whatever is done to "keep us safe from the mages". 

Annnnd yet all evidence (Varric + Cassandra interactions) suggests otherwise.

Now it's entirely possible in Dragon Age III or some expansion we'll discover I'm wrong. But from what we have to deduce from now, the mages seem to be winning.

Nor can "whatever keeps us safe" get much worse than it did in Kirkwall. Mages were locked in their rooms and made Tranquil even after their Harrowing; while people like Meredith didn't condone the action directly, why did no one go "Hmm....awful lot of new Tranquil mages around these days."

Not to mention it appears the Divine was already contemplating an Exalted March. -shrug-

Modifié par Sarielle, 23 mars 2011 - 12:10 .

[sassperella]

lockdown51 wrote...

@sassperella

I'm sorry, but as a historian, one of the first things you learn is that one's current place in time WILL color how one looks at anything in the past, even the made up past. You are right in saying this isn't modern America and that the Chantry is not the Church but parallels can and will be drawn if even subconsciously. One night even go so far as to compare the mages to the blacks.

Also, it has to be noted that the Church used to have standing armies. The knight orders are just satellites of the Church itself. Where do you think Bioware got the idea of the templar in the first place. There is even an order of knights called the Knights Templar.

You are right, Anders is the only one being labelled as the big "T" as you call it. Maybe because of the level of destruction he caused. Fenris killed people in his attempts to stay free. People side with him being okay because it is just about him and not the institution of slavery. Merrill gets her whole clan killed. Perhaps just another message in the game about the dangers of blood magic. However the argument has to be made that she would have been willing to pay the price herself but that is for another thread. Isabella should be called a terrorist. She is after all the reason the Qunari couldn't leave the city. Maybe she doesn't get called a terrorist because of just how self centered her actions are. She only wanted to save her own skin, not start a movement.

Anders had a cause. He wanted something bigger than himself. When people fight for a cause and kill people to further that cause they are called terrorists nowadays. But since you don't like that word, lets call him a Crusader. They have as good a reputation.

You misinterpreted what I said. I didn't say they were all terrorists. I said Isabella and Merril were as guilty of many deaths as Anders, if not more in Isabella's case but it's more emotive in Anders case because it's attached to the 'T' word which is such a huge no no in the modern world. People can forgive killing half of kirkwall in Isabella's case and possibly the whole clan in Merrils case and many more innocents by various people in dragon age origins, but by making him commit a Terrorist act, Bioware damned Anders because they made him do the unforgivable by calling forth all the emotions of 9/11.  

In a world like Thedas, death is commonplace, so Bioware had to take the players out of the game and into modern day briefly so we could judge Anders in a way we never judged any other companion or friend for their acts.

[theradicalpunk]

If anything what Anders did only cemented that mages need to be watched. He blew up a friggen chantry.

What's going on in Trevinter only justifies mages need to be watched.

Mages need to be apart of society, but I in Thaedas of course would never allow mages to be high ranking officials. The Imperium I'm sure is a scary thought for anyone. If one nation can allow mages to run amok with blood magic... I'd hate to think of a world filled with them.

So if anything Anders caused war to break out all over the world. Well see what fallout comes from it in DA3. If the writers neglect this I'll consider it ****** poor writing.

[sassperella]

Sarielle wrote...

sassperella wrote...

lockdown, the chantry has nothing to do with Christianity and is an organisation in charge of the templars and the circle. The divine - the head was going to march on kirkwall and cleanse it of all mages including any innocents that got in the way (maybe you don't have the seb dlc). They killed thousands of Dalish elves because they didn't believe in Andraste . You can not compare the religion of the chantry to christianity and insulting people who point this out shows you just completely missed the point.

Overreact much?

The Chantry has TONS OF PARALLELS to Christianity and Crusades (hellooooo "holy wars" over, in part, somebody having a different religion). In particular, it has a lot of parallels with the Catholic church. And I say that as a Catholic.

Don't be so hyper sensitive.

If you followed the posts you'll see that this was in response to one particular poster and his line

'To the person that said it wasn't a civilian building... Even if you aren't christian that is such a social taboo. Have some decency.'

I was mainly objecting to him attacking someone outright by calling upon a modern religion. The chantry isn't christianity even if you can draw parallels. It's a game and I was mainly having a go at the guy that said saying the chantry isn't a civilian building is indecent 'even if you aren't a christian' and to 'have some decency'. My reply is it's not christianity and a lot of people don't see it as indecent.

[Melca36]

Problem with people...is that as much as the fear mages they use them for healing, etc.

So people need to put up or shut up.

[Sarielle]

sassperella wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

sassperella wrote...

lockdown, the chantry has nothing to do with Christianity and is an organisation in charge of the templars and the circle. The divine - the head was going to march on kirkwall and cleanse it of all mages including any innocents that got in the way (maybe you don't have the seb dlc). They killed thousands of Dalish elves because they didn't believe in Andraste . You can not compare the religion of the chantry to christianity and insulting people who point this out shows you just completely missed the point.

Overreact much?

The Chantry has TONS OF PARALLELS to Christianity and Crusades (hellooooo "holy wars" over, in part, somebody having a different religion). In particular, it has a lot of parallels with the Catholic church. And I say that as a Catholic.

Don't be so hyper sensitive.

If you followed the posts you'll see that this was in response to one particular poster and his line

'To the person that said it wasn't a civilian building... Even if you aren't christian that is such a social taboo. Have some decency.'

I was mainly objecting to him attacking someone outright by calling upon a modern religion. The chantry isn't christianity even if you can draw parallels. It's a game and I was mainly having a go at the guy that said saying the chantry isn't a civilian building is indecent 'even if you aren't a christian' and to 'have some decency'. My reply is it's not christianity and a lot of people don't see it as indecent.

...oh. I missed the part where you were responding to a user named Lockdown. I thought you were suggesting the thread needed to be locked because of...well...you get the idea.

Sorry.

[Melca36]

People need to read the codex on The Divine. There's more to her than meets the eye. It would be ironic if she turned out to be a mage or something that goes against everything the Chantry stands for. LOL

[theradicalpunk]

I think their doing a great job with Religion. Because as shown it causes more problems then it fixes.

Just sayin.

[sassperella]

Sarielle wrote...

sassperella wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

sassperella wrote...

lockdown, the chantry has nothing to do with Christianity and is an organisation in charge of the templars and the circle. The divine - the head was going to march on kirkwall and cleanse it of all mages including any innocents that got in the way (maybe you don't have the seb dlc). They killed thousands of Dalish elves because they didn't believe in Andraste . You can not compare the religion of the chantry to christianity and insulting people who point this out shows you just completely missed the point.

Overreact much?

The Chantry has TONS OF PARALLELS to Christianity and Crusades (hellooooo "holy wars" over, in part, somebody having a different religion). In particular, it has a lot of parallels with the Catholic church. And I say that as a Catholic.

Don't be so hyper sensitive.

If you followed the posts you'll see that this was in response to one particular poster and his line

'To the person that said it wasn't a civilian building... Even if you aren't christian that is such a social taboo. Have some decency.'

I was mainly objecting to him attacking someone outright by calling upon a modern religion. The chantry isn't christianity even if you can draw parallels. It's a game and I was mainly having a go at the guy that said saying the chantry isn't a civilian building is indecent 'even if you aren't a christian' and to 'have some decency'. My reply is it's not christianity and a lot of people don't see it as indecent.

...oh. I missed the part where you were responding to a user named Lockdown. I thought you were suggesting the thread needed to be locked because of...well...you get the idea.

Sorry.

LOL yeah he had an unfortunate name for that   

[Ironic Discordia]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

You aren't alone. One of my characters let him live and ran off with him.

My Hawke would've handed him the goddamn match if he'd let her.  Which is probably why he didn't let her.  On a friendship path with a Hawke who actually agrees with Anders, I got the impression that he was lying to her to protect her from the fallout.  Stupid, but sweet.

Yeah, the friendship/romance set up for what Anders does seems a lot more oriented toward keeping the blood off Hawke's hands. Anders knows that what he's doing is going to require justice of some sort and accepts that he'll be killed for it, but he genuinely seems to not want Hawke to be blamed for what he did. In the case of a non-mage Hawke with a questionable track record of picking a side (like my rogue), there's the added element of not knowing whether or not they'll help or finally see him for the dangerous extremist he is.

That said, I understand what Anders was hoping to accomplish. Civil wars and revolutions rarely start with a strongly worded letter. Still, what he did was pretty awful. As a player, I'm obviously more removed from the situation than the character, but still. It reminds me of Elthina's remark to Sebastian that 'Death is never justice,' and Isabela's banter that killing a bunch of innocents to prove a point is like starting a bar brawl; eventually everyone's involved, but no one really remembers why they're fighting. Frankly, I think a lot of my Hakwes after this one will kill Anders for what he did, since letting him live only serves to set Sebastian off on a another quest of revenge.

[Ironic Discordia]

Kitimandiri wrote...

Less seriously, I snorted my drink when Sebastian started saying Hawke wouldn't be waffling around about killing Anders if Seb had been in the chantry. My Hawke would have busted out the party mixers and declared a day off.

My Hawke wanted a sarcastic, "Of course we wouldn't be arguing the point; you'd be dead and not suggesting I knife my lover."

[Medhia Nox]

People are saying: "Only if the mages lose."

Guess what folks - I think Varric tells you very well exactly what we'll be doing in the next expansion.

"You're little Chantry has fallen to pieces and you want him/her to put it back together."

Whether you like it or not, the next game - you're going to save the Chantry.

Why? Because the common people need the stability the Chantry provided for them, more than they need a few demonic mages.

You really think Bioware is going to make two endings? One with no Chantry - and mages ruling? And one with a Chantry and mages subdued? I'd say you're dreaming. I'd also say that the mages were the villains of the "Empire Strikes Back" episode of Dragon Age - not "Return of the Jedi".

Bioware will choose which one they think will win (and they're pointing at the Chantry from where I'm sitting) - and you'll go and save that one. It might not be to the detriment of the other... but we'll see.

Oh, and a little exercise. Create a mage Hawke and go out at night in Kirkwall and fight a bunch of archers... see how far your mage gets.

I think people are delusional about what the mages will be able to accomplish (of course, only Bioware will be able to answer that.)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 23 mars 2011 - 01:35 .

[Kitimandiri]

Ironic Discordia wrote...

Kitimandiri wrote...

Less seriously, I snorted my drink when Sebastian started saying Hawke wouldn't be waffling around about killing Anders if Seb had been in the chantry. My Hawke would have busted out the party mixers and declared a day off.

My Hawke wanted a sarcastic, "Of course we wouldn't be arguing the point; you'd be dead and not suggesting I knife my lover."

I would have settled for a raised eyebrow and myHawke saying "Sit down and shut up or I'm kicking Andraste's face..."<_<