709 respuestas en este tema

[DeaHamlet]

The Right of Annulment seemed so awful to me.

I will admit I'm totally biased by DA:O and my having been a mage in that one.

Did anyone else think "wtf, what innocents"? At most I saw 6 sisters in that chantry.
Anders + Justice = you cannot be surprised at the turn of events...

And for anyone wondering why Anders didn't go up in flames with the chantry... he needed to speak his part, to tell the world why he was doing it... while more than ready to be killed for it.

The whole thing reminded me of Sophia Dryden... trying to stand up to a tyrant and in the end history remembered her as a traitor. You don't make the hard decisions in order to be loved. You make them despite knowing that many will hate you...

This game makes me think too hard.
And no, I refuse to draw parallels to the real world.

[Faridle]

No you are not alone I got quite pisst when he destroyed my compromise. I stabbed him

[Psycho_Kenshin]

What Anders did is wrong, I mean he blew up a church full of innocent people. However, I did find it very ballsy and in general a plot turn I didn't see coming, and one of the more thought provoking parts of the story.

I kept Anders on my team and more or less supported the troubled mage.

[Dave of Canada]

Tyrium wrote...

Compromise was truly no longer an option, this had to end. Rhiannon and Anders went off into the sunset, fighting for a world where their children could be born free.

By causing wars, killing thousands and blowing up buildings.

Yep.

[Clover Rider]

DeaHamlet wrote...

The Right of Annulment seemed so awful to me.

I will admit I'm totally biased by DA:O and my having been a mage in that one.

Did anyone else think "wtf, what innocents"? At most I saw 6 sisters in that chantry.
Anders + Justice = you cannot be surprised at the turn of events...

And for anyone wondering why Anders didn't go up in flames with the chantry... he needed to speak his part, to tell the world why he was doing it... while more than ready to be killed for it.

The whole thing reminded me of Sophia Dryden... trying to stand up to a tyrant and in the end history remembered her as a traitor. You don't make the hard decisions in order to be loved. You make them despite knowing that many will hate you...

This game makes me think too hard.
And no, I refuse to draw parallels to the real world.

If you draw parallels to the real world it will make Anders look wrong that's why you don't want to do it=].

Editado por Some Geth, 21 marzo 2011 - 09:47 .

[Dave of Canada]

Some Geth wrote...
If you draw parallels to the real world it will just make Anders look wrong that's why you don't want to do it=].

It's funny because it's true.

[Clover Rider]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
If you draw parallels to the real world it will just make Anders look wrong that's why you don't want to do it=].

It's funny because it's true.

Yup:happy:

[Sabriana]

Oddly, when the Chantry blew, my rogue heard Flemeth's words ring in her ear:


"Without an end, there will be no peace. This world will be driven to the brink of the Abyss. Be not afraid to leap, and see if you can fly."


Ah, Flemeth. Don't you just love her?

[Dave of Canada]

Sabriana wrote...

Oddly, when the Chantry blew, my rogue heard Flemeth's words ring in her ear:


"Without an end, there will be no peace. This world will be driven to the brink of the Abyss. Be not afraid to leap, and see if you can fly."

I had the same thought, I lept at the chance to stab the bastard.

[upsettingshorts]

DeaHamlet wrote...

This game makes me think too hard.
And no, I refuse to draw parallels to the real world.

Why not?  It's clearly what the writers intended to do.  Unless you think freedom versus security isn't a contemporary issue.  

[DeaHamlet]

No, it's because there is no comparison in the CURRENT real world. In the current world we don't jail people, lobotomize them, refuse them the right to have family and loved ones... just because of how they are born. Not in the western world. And everywhere else, I don't live there so I cannot judge for them how bad it is or isn't.
Ask me about the parallels to the holy wars and whatnots, and I'd say "yep, blow up the Vatican, I'm down with that". If you ask me about the persecution of "witches" in North America, and ask me how I feel if someone had blown up a huge church... I'd see their point entirely.

Ask me if my country becomes church obsessed and starts locking up gay people and enslaving any woman who will not "know her place"... will I eventually feel it justified in blowing up some churches who are condoning a group that is part of them to persecute, kill and lock up people different than them... if things get really bad, then yes. I think so.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that a parallel to an equivalent existing situation would make me rethink my stance on Anders... go right ahead. Your prerogative and all that.
Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

[Gamer Ftw]

I agree totally I hate when religious zealots claim the maker told me to as an excuse oppressing people it is as wrong in real life as it is in the game.
Then when people fight back they are judged?

[Clover Rider]

DeaHamlet wrote...

No, it's because there is no comparison in the CURRENT real world. In the current world we don't jail people, lobotomize them, refuse them the right to have family and loved ones... just because of how they are born. Not in the western world. And everywhere else, I don't live there so I cannot judge for them how bad it is or isn't.
Ask me about the parallels to the holy wars and whatnots, and I'd say "yep, blow up the Vatican, I'm down with that". If you ask me about the persecution of "witches" in North America, and ask me how I feel if someone had blown up a huge church... I'd see their point entirely.

Ask me if my country becomes church obsessed and starts locking up gay people and enslaving any woman who will not "know her place"... will I eventually feel it justified in blowing up some churches who are condoning a group that is part of them to persecute, kill and lock up people different than them... if things get really bad, then yes. I think so.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that a parallel to an equivalent existing situation would make me rethink my stance on Anders... go right ahead. Your prerogative and all that.
Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

Oh wow you are a crad=].

Mages can kill people hell kingdoms if they want just like Anders did not at all like the witches of real life=].

And by the way there are tons of better ways to get freedom than to blow people up.

Editado por Some Geth, 21 marzo 2011 - 10:08 .

[upsettingshorts]

Tyrium wrote...

I'm glad there are others. I'm starting to feel pretty in the minority. I don't regard it as terrorism - it was not a civilian building, not was it done in order to kill civilians. It was done to remove someone who refused to take real action when action could have helped, and was now allowing a much worse cycle to continue.

It isn't just kind-of terrorism.  It isn't terrorism-like.  It is a textbook case of terrorism.  They couldn't have made this more obvious short of having Anders having a couple of dragons fly into the Chantry and explode.

He justifies it by saying there are no civilians, no innocents, no noncombatants, and no compromise.  This is basically the same rhetoric real world terrorists the world over have used for years.   Politically motivated violence aimed at coercing a terrified polulace is what terrorism is. 

But there are civilians, there are noncombatants, there are people who want to stay out of it, and there are people who want to pursue compromise.  None of those things should earn them the death sentence Anders chose for them, and that's why he's a terrorist.

Tyrium wrote...

More templar squeeze -> more evil mages -> more templar squeeze etc. I don't like the fact that there were innocents in there, but there was no other way to eliminate her, and it was necessary to eliminate her to end this in the only way it could be - open war.

Yes, it's called "conflict escalation."  It is often - though not always - associated with war crimes.  The specific example of Anders blowing up a civic building in order to escalate the conflict would qualfiy for such a label.  Given that Grand Cleric Elthina is a political figure, it also qualifies under the label of assassination.

Again, it's okay to say, "I support Anders' cause" but deciding that it's okay to arbitrarily decide that what he did wasn't an act of terrorism is only going to get people riled up - because it was.  Anders is a terrorist (his tactics) and a revolutionary (his goals), if you support his goals you may be willing to forgive his tactics - but sweeping them under the rug is just another way of not dealing with them.  This is something even Anders wouldn't do, he knows what he did.

Editado por Upsettingshorts, 21 marzo 2011 - 10:10 .

[Gamer Ftw]

freedom is worth any cost.

[upsettingshorts]

DeaHamlet wrote...

No, it's because there is no comparison in the CURRENT real world. In the current world we don't jail people, lobotomize them, refuse them the right to have family and loved ones... just because of how they are born.

Irrelevant.  His cause is not the topic of discussion, his tactics are.  No one cares about modern terrorists' causes because their tactics are abhorrent.  So are Anders' tactics.  His cause is of course more sympathetic than say, al-Qaeda.  That doesn't mean that blowing up buildings in real life in order to escalate conflict and force people to choose sides in global Pan-Nationalist Jihad - yes, that's their mission - is any different than blowing up the Chantry in order to escalate conflict and force people to choose sides in a global mage revolt.

Again, to state it for the record again:  It's fine to support Anders' position, it's even fine to decide that ultimately the ends justify the means in regards to what he did.  What's not fine is saying what he did wasn't terrorism, it dilutes the impact of his actions and undermines the gravity of the narrative.

Gamer Ftw wrote...

freedom is worth any cost.

And you have the right to make that choice for yourself, when you start making it for others - like Anders did - that's totally different.  Anders decided for Thedas what price they were all going to pay.  In my mind, he does not have that right.  Neither would Meredith, but I'd condemn both of them.

Editado por Upsettingshorts, 21 marzo 2011 - 10:09 .

[Psycho_Kenshin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Anders is a terrorist (his
tactics) and a revolutionary (his goals), if you support his goals you
may be willing to forgive his tactics - but sweeping them under the rug
is just another way of not dealing with them.  This is something even
Anders wouldn't do, he knows what he did.

It's true, saying "what innocents" is just diluting the bold nature of the story.

Editado por Psycho_Kenshin, 21 marzo 2011 - 10:10 .

[Dave of Canada]

DeaHamlet wrote...

In the current world we don't jail people, lobotomize them, refuse them the right to have family and loved ones... just because of how they are born.

In the current world, we don't have people that are hunted by demons and turn into creatures.
We don't have people that can mind control others.
We don't have people that could destroy an entire village should they get bored one day.
We don't have people that can force demons into other people.
We don't have people that can bring the dead back to life to fight as servant.
We don't have people that can summon demons to kill people.

Humanity has done far worse to people for less, I'm sure if the above existed right here and right now then we'd have something similar to the Chantry. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we euthanized every single one of them.

Not in the western world.

From my knowledge, not in the recent western world at least.

And everywhere else

You'd be surprised.

Ask me about the parallels to the holy wars and whatnots, and I'd say "yep, blow up the Vatican, I'm down with that".

I have a feeling you just have an anti-religion agenda and you're projecting.

If you ask me about the persecution of "witches" in North America, and ask me how I feel if someone had blown up a huge church... I'd see their point entirely.

And tell me, what if they were actually witches? Would you still support the destruction of the Chantry? Anders defends mages but everywhere in DA2, from start to finish, you see blood mages and abominations and each time you actually spend time to help a mage they turn around and become a blood mage or they head off to Tevinter where they rule over normal people as their masters.

Ask me if my country becomes church obsessed and starts locking up gay people

Gay people don't compare to mages that can do all of the above.

and enslaving any woman who will not "know her place"...

Nor the women, though they do tend to get possessed every month or so. (I kid, I kid.)

will I eventually feel it justified in blowing up some churches who are condoning a group that is part of them to persecute, kill and lock up people different than them... if things get really bad, then yes. I think so.

You'd support the deaths of innocents to because you're feeling oppressed? Reminds me a little bit of something.

Gamer FTW wrote...

freedom is worth any cost.

Millions of innocent deaths and a war that the "rebels" might lose? Yep, worth it.

Editado por Dave of Canada, 21 marzo 2011 - 10:12 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Someone had to make a stand.
The chantry has killed so many and they would just kill and oppress more and more.
Exalted marches tranquil slaves I can't even imagine what templar's might have done to mage kids in those towers.

[Psycho_Kenshin]

It's supposed to be shocking and questionable, by accepting it and defending it fully it really seems like you're diluting it and oversimplifying it.

[Gamer Ftw]

and in real life the churches have oppresed people in similar ways.

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

You'd support the deaths of innocents to because you're feeling oppressed? Reminds me a little bit of something.

I summon that imagery with my flying dragons comments in order to prove a point, but it's not really the best example.  I don't think al-Qaeda's goals are remotely realistic - they have no objective hope of victory by their own standards - but since they're fighting a Holy War and believe their cause is righteous, likelihood of sucess is irrelevant to them.

In the case of Anders and the mages, some additional freedom won either through force of arms or a negotiated settlement after prolonged violence is within the realm of possibility, so I think we ought to look at nationalist terrorists - in other words, terrorists that sought to force political change in own country.  I've decided against listing specific examples for a number of reasons, but they aren't very hard to find.

Editado por Upsettingshorts, 21 marzo 2011 - 10:18 .

[DeaHamlet]

Oh yeah, bring in Sep 11 attacks. Cause I couldn't see that coming a mile away.
*rolls eyes* Obviously this is a pointless discussion. I'll leave you to your opinions, I'll keep mine.

[Miri1984]

@Dave of Canada Mages are dangerous, but the Circles aren't working. And I don't think anyone in the real world now would say just because these people are dangerous we should lock them up without trial and not....

....oh... hang on....