709 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Only if the mages lose.

You're missing the point.  The rallying cry their opponents can use -- "Remember Kirkwall!" -- makes them more likely to lose.  Even a powerful mage can only stand so long against an entire company of archers, spread out around them, firing from hiding, etc. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Not to mention that him being made tranquil in the first place went against Chantry law. Funny how the Grand Cleric doesn't seem to take notice to the increase of Harrowed mages who are made tranquil.

The codex entry on her implies that she's very dependent on Meredith.  Of course she wouldn't take sides or say anything.  I felt bad for her, and I liked her, I really did.  But she was absolutely useless.

Which is not, despite what some people might say, any sort of justification for her death. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Medhia Nox wrote...

But on a game developer level - you can't code all that extra "demonizing" into Hawke mage and Warden.

As far as the Warden is concerned - "Real tests are never over." - Signed, Pride Demon you meet in the Harrowing.

So I'd actual argue that thematically - yes, the Warden is constantly being tested by the Pride demon from his Harrowing.

We have yet to see any evidence of any of that in either game. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sarielle wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sarielle wrote...


...no. None of what you said changed a SINGLE THING I said.

1) I'd have had no problem if they'd decided to show old Elthina and whoever else having a good prayer right before things go boom. Go for the pathos. That's fine. The game doesn't suggest there are no casualties -- quite the opposite. Everyone knows the grand cleric bought it.

2) If Cassandra hadn't been desperately seeking the champion to fix things, I might agree with you. As it stands, mages seem to be doing pretty damn well for themselves. Anders' actions incited FELLOW MAGES to action, which imo was his desire all along.

All that little tear-jerker of a scenario did was attempt to play on emotions instead of appealing to logic. I take exception to that.

The human cost is a hard fact, not something that can be brushed aside as "emotional". 

It's a fact, but it's still irrelevant to the point I was making. Which was, ANDERS' PLOY SEEMS TO HAVE WORKED. From all we can tell, he appears to have accomplished precisely what he set out to. I know you want to keep emphasizing what a terrible person I am for not allowing a debate about imaginary people, by the way to get de-railed by that image of pathos, but honestly.

I'm starting to believe you are deliberately missing the point.

EDIT: This is how this conversation feels, lol.

Me: (standing free and clear outside prison, no immediate signs that we'll be recaptured) "Yay, our jailbreak worked! High five!"

You: "No, it didn't work. You killed a fry cook in the kitchen on the way out, and she was totally innocent."

Me: "But we're still out of jail...."

As I said to someone else, you're missing the point. 

What Anders did won't get what he wants.  Blowing up a Chantry won't get him what he wants -- he starts the war with an act that makes it less likely that they win -- because he's just given his enemies "proof" that mages really are as dangerous and chaotic as they'be been claiming.

[dantares83]

i am seriously upset he killed the Grand Cleric... she seems a nice woman, though very stubborn not to see how mages are repressed...
anyway, he was trying to make a point and I just could not bear to kill him... even running off with him and prob causing another war led by Sebastian.. so iszzit safe to say that there will be an expansion/DLC involving Sebastian and depending on your choice, he will led a war against u/Anders?

[Ironic Discordia]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But on a game developer level - you can't code all that extra "demonizing" into Hawke mage and Warden.

As far as the Warden is concerned - "Real tests are never over." - Signed, Pride Demon you meet in the Harrowing.

So I'd actual argue that thematically - yes, the Warden is constantly being tested by the Pride demon from his Harrowing.

We have yet to see any evidence of any of that in either game. 

There's a lot of things I've yet to see evidence of in game. Templars are supposed to be awesome at neutralizing mages, I never seem to have much trouble facing them with mage-heavy parties. Abominations are supposed to be absolutely horrific, just one of them decimating a village in no time, but my Warden/Hawke can take on five of them at a time without breaking a sweat. Lyrium is addictive and a heavily controlled substance, but buy all you want from the Circle Tower and chug it like there's no tomorrow.

[Addai]

sassperella wrote...

I was mainly objecting to him attacking someone outright by calling upon a modern religion. The chantry isn't christianity even if you can draw parallels. It's a game and I was mainly having a go at the guy that said saying the chantry isn't a civilian building is indecent 'even if you aren't a christian' and to 'have some decency'. My reply is it's not christianity and a lot of people don't see it as indecent.

I interpret what that poster wrote to mean "even if you don't yourself hold particular buildings sacred..."  Be that whatever religion you want to name.  Blowing up a public building in a central square, one that has deep meaning to many people, that violates something in humanity, not just adherents of a religion.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Ironic Discordia wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But on a game developer level - you can't code all that extra "demonizing" into Hawke mage and Warden.

As far as the Warden is concerned - "Real tests are never over." - Signed, Pride Demon you meet in the Harrowing.

So I'd actual argue that thematically - yes, the Warden is constantly being tested by the Pride demon from his Harrowing.

We have yet to see any evidence of any of that in either game. 

There's a lot of things I've yet to see evidence of in game. Templars are supposed to be awesome at neutralizing mages, I never seem to have much trouble facing them with mage-heavy parties. Abominations are supposed to be absolutely horrific, just one of them decimating a village in no time, but my Warden/Hawke can take on five of them at a time without breaking a sweat. Lyrium is addictive and a heavily controlled substance, but buy all you want from the Circle Tower and chug it like there's no tomorrow.

You seem to say that like you expect me to disagree or that it counters my point. 

As with most game makers, BioWare has a poor track record of synchronizing lore and gameplay. 

[Ironic Discordia]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Ironic Discordia wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But on a game developer level - you can't code all that extra "demonizing" into Hawke mage and Warden.

As far as the Warden is concerned - "Real tests are never over." - Signed, Pride Demon you meet in the Harrowing.

So I'd actual argue that thematically - yes, the Warden is constantly being tested by the Pride demon from his Harrowing.

We have yet to see any evidence of any of that in either game. 

There's a lot of things I've yet to see evidence of in game. Templars are supposed to be awesome at neutralizing mages, I never seem to have much trouble facing them with mage-heavy parties. Abominations are supposed to be absolutely horrific, just one of them decimating a village in no time, but my Warden/Hawke can take on five of them at a time without breaking a sweat. Lyrium is addictive and a heavily controlled substance, but buy all you want from the Circle Tower and chug it like there's no tomorrow.

You seem to say that like you expect me to disagree or that it counters my point. 

As with most game makers, BioWare has a poor track record of synchronizing lore and gameplay. 

It was more a simple statement than a counter of any sort. Honestly, the idea of a mage PC being tempted by demons is an interesting one. However, as Medhia Nox points out, there are a lot of lore based things that are difficult to implement through coding.

Modifié par Ironic Discordia, 23 mars 2011 - 02:47 .

[Sarielle]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

As I said to someone else, you're missing the point. 

What Anders did won't get what he wants.  Blowing up a Chantry won't get him what he wants -- he starts the war with an act that makes it less likely that they win -- because he's just given his enemies "proof" that mages really are as dangerous and chaotic as they'be been claiming.

I'm not missing the point. :B

I'm arguing from the point of view of what we've actually seen in the game. You're arguing from the point of how you think it would turn out (using logic, I grant you) but not accounting for the situation Varric describes. (Which is something along the lines of "Your precious Chantry has fallen apart and you're looking for the one person who could help put it back together.")

Ultimately, years down the road, you may be correct. It may be the biggest backfire ever. Or we may end up with another Imperium ruled by mages. Or, Maker forbid, people manage to actually talk things out rationally and come to a compromise where you avoid a Tevinter Imperium but you avoid another Kirkwall Circle.

But so far, we haven't seen that. We just have Varric saying the Chantry is in shambles, and Cassandra not correcting him.

[Ricvenart]

Not at all, just upset he didnt trust or talk to me about it really.
Come on that woman could have stopped all this years ago but has sat back to slavery and torture and the lose of lives (un needed traquils being made) for at least 10 years of the game, although it was all meant to be going on before you arrived, yet she let it happen and let war happen, how is that the makers work? If anything she allowed kirkwall to become an imperium bar magisters.
She failed 3 of her charges right under her nose, one attempted to start war with quanari, another was miserable and lost and on the egde of blood magic (although wish I could have killed him sooner for hiding that guy) and the other was power mad eventually driven totally mad by a pure lyrium sword of some evil power. Right under her nose.
I have a feeling about her though, the eye shadow, possibly implanting this all to occur. or at least allowing it. It may not be the last we've seen of her. (although it does seem far fetched but i dont know somethings not right)

Even if I am completely wrong there and she was just a useless old woman, Anders did get what he wanted, he prevented the agruement being repeated over and over again like hes stuck in groundhog day, while people still suffered. He showed other circles they can stand up to it and fight, and yes it shows a level of dangerousness but didnt a templar not become entire corrupt and dangerous, it wouldnt be just mages are dangerous, for all we know that was the quanari blackpowder at work not magic at all (bar for a fireball spell to set it off at range). And she was far from innocent in all of it, as ive said above. Inaction is still an choice in itself. For all we know it may be the makers will for being taken the wrong way again to such extremes and having people claiming to hide behind his words. Andraste didnt manage to start the exhaulted marches without anyone dying did she. So maybe it is for the better to restart what has again become a corrupt religion.

Although whether it will achieve people living with mages side by side if questionable, who knows, that ideal would always have issues. But if it doesnt start a genocide of mage blood lines, then it should at least stop acts that make mages feel back into such corners if only to prevent them thinking they need to turn that way. Im kinda with Anders on it, I would have like another way, rather then what cant be proved to be directly responsible for the actions to be killed (although they are her charges shes the head of both sides in the area so maybe thats enough guilt). But then again Im not religious if only for what churches are these days, so the end of a place that says slavery is wrong then imposes it maybe bothers me less then the next person.

Modifié par Ricvenart, 23 mars 2011 - 05:59 .

[Gamer Ftw]

I am so very glad I never purchased the Sebastian dlc My accent is cuter anyway

[Sabriana]

Doesn't Varric also say: "The CHANTRY has brought the world to the brink of war..."

Caps for emphasis, I'm not yelling

Just throwing it out there. But Cassandra doesn't correct him on that either.

As for Sebastian, I don't have the DLC. I'll not get it either. I've not had any urge to purchase it at all. So he's not a factor to my Hawke at all. He simply doesn't exist.

[Tamyn]

Addai67 wrote...
I interpret what that poster wrote to mean "even if you don't yourself hold particular buildings sacred..."  Be that whatever religion you want to name.  Blowing up a public building in a central square, one that has deep meaning to many people, that violates something in humanity, not just adherents of a religion.

To quote Dr. Peter Venkman from Ghostbusters, "NOBODY steps on a church in my town!"

[DKJaigen]

Medhia Nox wrote...


And yes - the Warden DOES free the Ferelden Circle. His Boon allows them to practice freely from the Chantry and the Templars. Of course - you have to have a real leader on the throne (also known as Anora), not that moron Alistair (I'd love to see the correlation between people who like Alistair and people who like Anders - they're both very similar to me. Selfish - deceiving - deserters if they don't get their way.)

Nope the chantry said : NO. and as such its not going to happen. this was confirmed by gaider btw

[Gamer Ftw]

Dk It was confirmed as free people wre talking about it.

[Elastica]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

Amen, brother.

[Serelir]

 "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!"

-Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775

[DuskWanderer]

I didn't like it, but I applaud the writers for having it draw out an emotion in the first place. Like it or hate it, we clearly weren't bored.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...

 "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!"

-Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775

Patrick Henry was making a statement of his own beliefs, to encourage others. 

I don't recall him blowing up a city block to "get his point across".

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sarielle wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

As I said to someone else, you're missing the point. 

What Anders did won't get what he wants.  Blowing up a Chantry won't get him what he wants -- he starts the war with an act that makes it less likely that they win -- because he's just given his enemies "proof" that mages really are as dangerous and chaotic as they'be been claiming.

I'm not missing the point. :B

I'm arguing from the point of view of what we've actually seen in the game. You're arguing from the point of how you think it would turn out (using logic, I grant you) but not accounting for the situation Varric describes. (Which is something along the lines of "Your precious Chantry has fallen apart and you're looking for the one person who could help put it back together.")

Ultimately, years down the road, you may be correct. It may be the biggest backfire ever. Or we may end up with another Imperium ruled by mages. Or, Maker forbid, people manage to actually talk things out rationally and come to a compromise where you avoid a Tevinter Imperium but you avoid another Kirkwall Circle.

But so far, we haven't seen that. We just have Varric saying the Chantry is in shambles, and Cassandra not correcting him.

He also states, if I recall correctly, that Templars have been abandoning the Chantry to hunt mages on their own.  There could just as easily be a large and growing force of people who's only goal is to kill, Tranquil, and/or cage every mage in Thedas -- in which case, the Chantry falling apart isn't a sign of Anders' goals coming to fruition.

[Teramore]

Anders is a terrorist. Ends never justify the means. He killed Grand Cleric Elthina and killed everybody inside the Chantry. Although Grand Cleric Elthina was a stupid old granny who didn't step in to depose crazy templars like Meredith or Ser Alrik, she didn't deserve to die! As Hawke, I would've led a mage rebellion anyway, but not like this! I don't regret executing Anders at all.

Now that all the Circles rebelled, what mages of Thedas need is not a prison but a school like Hogwarts. I am sure that a compromise between the Chantry and the Circles still can be made to ensure both freedom of mages and safety of dull ordinary people. For example, you can make a law which allows mages to gain complete freedom after 20 years of education or something like that. However, I still agree with the Chantry teaching which says that "Magic exists to serve man not rule over him". Rise of another Tevinter Imperium is the last thing I want to see in this game. Those Magister bastards still allow slavery and practice blood magic. Although I would always defend mage' freedom from the tyranny of templars like Ser Alrik or Meredith, mages shouldn't be allowed to have any political influence whatsoever. Political Power+Magic = Tyranny. Remember Severan! Christ! why can't every mage be as virtuous and pure in heart as Bethany or Wynne?

[Mylene]

the only thing i was upset with is that his methods are a bit extreme.he should'v come up with a better plan.tho i admit that what he did in fact is pretty efficient in achieving his goal

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

After reading the first post you put that in LobselVith8 - they evidently "corrected" it after I played.

The scene between King Alistair and Knight-Commander Meredith shows that the Circle of Ferelden was never given its freedom.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I put Anora on the throne by herself - Alistair left in a huffy rage because I wouldn't kill Loghain for him (I dislike Alistair almost as much as I do Anders). I got a slide where the mage tower was freed to study on their own.

The Magi boon was imported into DA2 for me as well, but it doesn't change that the Magi boon is turned down by the Chantry. The bartenders' comments don't change that the templars are still a presence in Awakening and Witch Hunt, as well as Meredith's comments in the quest "King Alistair" where it's apparent that the boon didn't happen.

Medhia Nox wrote...

As for Awakenings - it wouldn't be the first time choices in one game didn't matter for the next - look at Leliana, some people killed her - but here she is. Same with Zevran.

Zevran is bugged, as is the Nathaniel comment about the Architect. Leliana coming back from the dead if she died is the same B.S. as Oghren coming back from the dead if he was killed by the Warden - I won't contest that.

Medhia Nox wrote...

You can scream and cry about mage injustice all you want (as I said, I play a mage pretty exclusively, and I don't suffer any "slavery" in my playthroughs... as Warden or Hawke) - I believe what Anders did is actually separate - and judging him separately, I believe he's a monster and everything that is evil about mages in Dragon Age.

You're welcome to disagree, but characters do refer to it as slavery. Even Hawke can call the Chantry controlled Circles slavery. Considering Anders is one of these people, it's a factor in why he destroyed an institution that was involved in a millennia of mage slavery and oppression.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I will not agree with someone who likes him because he's "cute" or "has a cat" or "helps Fereldens in a clinic" or because "he was the first rock'n gay romance I could have in an RPG!". If you don't think evil people sometimes do good things to justify their evil acts - I recommend reading up on some evil people throughout history.

And there are people who do bad things because they think it'll lead to a greater good - look at the debates over how WWII ended with the U.S. and Japan, for instance. Innocent people died then, too.

Medhia Nox wrote...

As for the Dalish clans - she does say they hunt down Maleficar, just like the Templars do. There are obviously far fewer Dalish mages as we only ever see one Keeper and one Student (are they called something?) .

Yet Velanna knew who her likely successor would be from within her own clan. I don't think we can estimate how many mages are in a clan, although we know they have no problem with runaways from the Circle, as Aneirin and the unnamed mage of Witch Hunt (who originally stole the book) attest to. We have no real way of gauging how many mages are in a clan.

Medhia Nox wrote...

As for whatever Templar rapes mages - yeah, because mages never rape people, only Templars. You want to condemn an entire organization (two actually - the Templars and the Chantry) for the acts of some of their members.

If you're looking at why Anders did what he did, you need to look at the abuses committed by the people in power. When you factor in how the templars are abusing their authority, it plays a significant role in why Anders wanted to see his people free from Chantry and templar control.

Medhia Nox wrote...

At least I'm consisten... I condemn all three organizations for the acts of their members. I don't play favorites and ignore the evil of the Circle out of convenience.

You're welcome to do that. In the meanwhile, I'll oppose an organization that will commit genocide against every man, woman, and child with magical ability.

[Arnyhold]

If you romance Anders it is really upsetting. He makes you believe that he regrets that he fused with justice and want to get rid of him. He makes you collect ingredients and makes you feel worried about it, because he mentions the ritual is dangerous. Then in reality he makes you gather bomb materials ans uses you while lies you all along. You give him full trust (and friend 100%), siding always with his cause and showing the way that people can achieve anything without being bloodmage or a bad person (I was a mage in this case also) and he does this. By the way it is completely the opposite what he always says, becuse it sets back his whole propaganda. I could justify it only with the spirits presence in his mind. I could not kill him, but I also cannot forgive him. I do not mind the twist anyway it is like life. :-)

So it is everyones own personal decision I guess, regardless what he does is ****ing disgusting. Not "just" the terrorism, but all the lie part. I mean that sister even helps you and Anders. He even mentiones that she should speak with her more often (wich suggests that he sometimes did anyway). Also he shows no regret at all. Even after it turns out that more than half of the city was bloodmage including Orsino.

Modifié par Arnyhold, 24 mars 2011 - 08:52 .