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[Serelir]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...

 "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!"

-Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775

Patrick Henry was making a statement of his own beliefs, to encourage others. 

I don't recall him blowing up a city block to "get his point across". 

I used this quotation on its historic anniversary to illustrate Anders' state of mind. If captured, he would indeed have been locked up (or executed) as an apostate mage. The only way he could conceive of achieving freedom was to end the power of the Chantry.

You may not have heard of the American revolutionary group called The Sons of Liberty. I'll quote some of their actions from the wiki:

"In Boston, another example of the violence they committed could be found in their treatment of a local stamp distributor, Andrew Oliver. They burned his effigy in the streets. When he did not resign, they escalated to burning down his office building. Even after he resigned, they almost destroyed the whole house of his close associate, Lieutenant Governor Thomas Hutchinson. It is believed that the Sons of Liberty did this to excite the lower classes and get them actively involved in rebelling against the authorities. Their violent actions made many of the stamp distributors resign in fear.The Sons of Liberty were also responsible for the burning of HMS Gaspée in 1772."

You can look at any conflict (the Spanish Civil War in particular comes to mind) and see that what one side calls terrorism, the other side calls liberation. The same people on this forum who condemn Anders' act think it's perfectly alright to snatch children from their families and give them to the Templars to bugger. Considering what Anders went through during his time in the circle and subsequent escape attempts, his actions are completely understandable. Whether they were justifiable depends on your perspective. But they were effective, as we learn from the epilogue.

[Kitimandiri]

You got across what I was trying to get at early.

In regards to giving Anders %100 friendship and trust...

*facepalm* He TELLS you he's going to break your heart, -and- you know he's possessed by a vengeful spirit. This is not your Dick and Jane relationship with 2.5 kids and a white picket fence. It was bound to go to hell at some point. "Honey, I need you to distract the Grand Cleric while I, uh, admire...the...chapel?"

'Goddamit Anders' really sums up my feelings. Bad Mage, Bad! *whacks with newspaper*

All in all I was way more pissed at having to clean up Isabela's mess with the Qunari.

[Babi]

Honestly, it made me roflcopter the first time I saw it. Maybe I'm crazy? XD

[Gamer Ftw]

Babi wrote...

Honestly, it made me roflcopter the first time I saw it. Maybe I'm crazy? XD

No I had the same reaction followed by "HELL YEAH!"

[Babi]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Babi wrote...

Honestly, it made me roflcopter the first time I saw it. Maybe I'm crazy? XD

No I had the same reaction followed by "HELL YEAH!"

::Insert thumbs up emoticon:: 

[Saboteur-6]

Aaaand this topic still rumbles on. Buried multiple pages back I already stated why I completely disapproved of Anders though spared his life.

Yeah he got a ::Insert thumbs down emoticon:: from me. Somewhere, in the shadowed distance however, I think Morrigan approves +25.

Modifié par Vech24, 24 mars 2011 - 04:49 .

[Serelir]

Vech24 wrote...

Somewhere, in the shadowed distance however, I think Morrigan approves +25.

She probably sent him the recipe.  

You know, I felt sorry for laissez-faire Elthina and the anonymous chantry people, but it being a game, my gut reaction was "Hell, YEAH!" 

[PinkShoes]

i wasnt, i was just damn shocked when it first happened and was liek wtf?! XD i thought a massive demon was gunna come up from the ground.

I bet there will be a big explosion like that in DA3 XD

[Xeranx]

The first time I saw this I avoided helping Anders. Him being so secretive made me worried. My f!Hawke is an apostate who worships the Maker. Everytime she spoke with Elthina she asked for her benediction. To see the Chantry go up at Anders' hands angered her especially when she realized she turned a blind eye to what his goal was. Of course Anders was killed. Stabbed in the back like he did my Hawke.

[Trophonius]

Vech24 wrote...

Aaaand this topic still rumbles on. Buried multiple pages back I already stated why I completely disapproved of Anders though spared his life.

Yeah he got a ::Insert thumbs down emoticon:: from me. Somewhere, in the shadowed distance however, I think Morrigan approves +25.

True, though I think Morrigan would've approved +50 (massive magic included). Not only does she despise the Chantry/Circle, but she already finds your saintly and reputable acts disturbing enough, thus the constant outpouring of approval hits from her. What I found most interesting was that she precluded an imminent "change" and stated that sometimes, change is what sets a person free. Sounds like she described Anders perfectly.

[Kitimandiri]

After I recovered from my shock I thought it was the best part of the game, tbh.

I mean I'm so used to my character being the only one to make any important decisions, and he goes and does THAT!

[HolyJellyfish]

Kitimandiri wrote...

After I recovered from my shock I thought it was the best part of the game, tbh.

I mean I'm so used to my character being the only one to make any important decisions, and he goes and does THAT!

Pretty good, right? I rival'd the guy, was totally pro-templar, and then the church blows up.

When they asked me to choose between Templars and Mages, I really had to put the controller down, go outside, and walk for fifteen minutes.

Then they turned around and asked me to choose whether Anders lives, leaves, or dies.

Another fifteen minutes.


Those were two of the hardest choices I've ever had to make in a Bioware game. Bar none.

[Mugnir]

I was incredibly disappointed I could not just walk away from the conflict during the entire third act. Being forced into either helping the raping, slaving, drug addicted abusive templars or the blood magic crazy mages is horrible.

I get that they went for the "There's no correct choice" theme throughout this entire game. No matter what happens, you lose your family and friends. The title of Champion of Kirkwall rings very hollow at the end of the game.

There are so many points in the game where I can't act like a normal or logical person. I'll see the note from -O next to a bunch of books of necromancy, but I can't ever confront Orsino about it. Etc. I'm just sick of always getting to the scene of the crime too late to stop it, but just in time for a fight. It's a cheap way to create tragedy.

[Serelir]

Mugnir wrote...

I get that they went for the "There's no correct choice" theme throughout this entire game. No matter what happens, you lose your family and friends. The title of Champion of Kirkwall rings very hollow at the end of the game.

I felt that way, too. It reminded me of not having the chance to save Lucien in Oblivion (I was bummed out for days about that). But it seemed illogical and a bit cheap in DA2 - I was completely surprised, not having read spoilers, when Orsino turned on me instead of going after Meredith. My friend who played the Templar side said it doesn't matter which choice you make. She didn't help Merrill with the mirror quest, as I did, and it ended up exactly the same.

I have mixed feelings about the game. It's an engaging story, as we can see from all the debate, but I felt that it would have been better if the choices had real consequences.

[Babi]

PinkShoes wrote...

i wasnt, i was just damn shocked when it first happened and was liek wtf?! XD i thought a massive demon was gunna come up from the ground.

I bet there will be a big explosion like that in DA3 XD

Indeed! It might just be coupled with giant urban demons and a Megan Fox look-alike running in slow-mo' away from the blast.

[phantomdragoness]

I was FAR from upset over what Anders did. Sure, I was hurt that he doesn't trust you enough - but then he has reason to think you wouldn't help him blow up the frickin' Chantry, AND he doesn't want his actions connected to you. So, pros and cons, BUT when I saw the Chantry go sky high, all I could think of was how much my Hawke wanted to *ahem ahem* Anders right then and there. XD

EDIT: Oh, and has anyone rivalmanced him, and then decided to side with the mages in the end? Is Anders' reaction any different?

Modifié par phantomdragoness, 25 mars 2011 - 07:52 .

[Arnyhold]

phantomdragoness wrote...

I was FAR from upset over what Anders did. Sure, I was hurt that he doesn't trust you enough - but then he has reason to think you wouldn't help him blow up the frickin' Chantry, AND he doesn't want his actions connected to you.

Like I wrote before this is bull****, because he actually makes you helping him with lies. You collect the bomb ingredients and you distract the chantry leader, while making you think you are helping him to find a cure for his... state. He is a pretty good manipulator it seems. So many naive ppl.

Modifié par Arnyhold, 25 mars 2011 - 08:09 .

[phantomdragoness]

Arnyhold wrote...

phantomdragoness wrote...

I was FAR from upset over what Anders did. Sure, I was hurt that he doesn't trust you enough - but then he has reason to think you wouldn't help him blow up the frickin' Chantry, AND he doesn't want his actions connected to you.

Like I wrote before this is bull****, because he actually makes you helping him with lies. You collect the bomb ingredients and you distract the chantry leader, while making you think you are helping him to find a cure for his... state. He is a pretty good manipulator it seems. So many naive ppl.

Actually, I didn't believe him when he said he found a "cure" (he was smiling too much lol) but I decided to help him anyways because - hey - he asked for it. I hardly believe it's bullcrap. But that is just my opinion - a not-so-naive one. Being naive means that someone is ignorant of something. Although I knew Anders was not doing something right, I still decided to help him, and to be with him - this is called loyalty. I self-insert in any video game - I help my friends whether they are right or wrong, and I will support and protect them nomatter what.

Modifié par phantomdragoness, 25 mars 2011 - 08:53 .

[Sabriana]

If you click on him enough, all through the game you can hear his ever growing distaste for the Chantry perpetuating the eternal stale-mate. I believe at one point he even states outright that he blames the Chantry for forestalling a resolution, thereby keeping the mages down and the templars in a position of überpower. I think I got that 'one-liner' while clicking on him in the Chantry on some quest or another.

In one conversation he tells my Hawke that "the Underground is in shambles, and the rest of the mages have turned to blood-magic". Given his views on blood-magic could it be that he deliberately sacrificed the Kirkwall circle to further his/vengeance's agenda? As in "see what I did and only I, and they killed everyone for it, that's your precious Chantry and their templar army."

He gives indications of his growing restlessness all through the progression of the game. Including saying "something must be done to break the stalemate, something big." (paraphrased). When he asked for my Hawke's help, she knew something wasn't on the up and up. Sela peatra? From manure and urine? Really? A potion to reverse possession? Come on, dude, get real.

Granted, I didn't expect the Chantry to go sky-high, and my chin had rug-burns for days, but my Hawke definitely knew that something big and bad would happen with Anders. It made me chuckle in hindsight at the sneaky bioware writers.

Anders: "Just the ingredients and the potion and.... boom." (paraphrased)
Bad bioware, bad, funny people.

[Saboteur-6]

phantomdragoness wrote...

Arnyhold wrote...

phantomdragoness wrote...

I was FAR from upset over what Anders did. Sure, I was hurt that he doesn't trust you enough - but then he has reason to think you wouldn't help him blow up the frickin' Chantry, AND he doesn't want his actions connected to you.

Like I wrote before this is bull****, because he actually makes you helping him with lies. You collect the bomb ingredients and you distract the chantry leader, while making you think you are helping him to find a cure for his... state. He is a pretty good manipulator it seems. So many naive ppl.

Actually, I didn't believe him when he said he found a "cure" (he was smiling too much lol) but I decided to help him anyways because - hey - he asked for it. I hardly believe it's bullcrap. But that is just my opinion - a not-so-naive one. Being naive means that someone is ignorant of something. Although I knew Anders was not doing something right, I still decided to help him, and to be with him - this is called loyalty. I self-insert in any video game - I help my friends whether they are right or wrong, and I will support and protect them nomatter what.

I sympathise with the Mages but not with Anders's tactics and was going for a "middle road" resolution to the conflict. Dude is lucky I didn't kill him.

For the final part of Act 3 I did side with the Mages though to protect Orisino (mistake) and Bethany. I kicked Anders sorry ass to the curb despite being my party healer/support/buffer even when he came back for a second time all whimerping puppy on me. S'cool though...Bethany filled the gap.

[MorningBird]

If anyone was acting naively, I believe it was Anders, not any of posters in this thread.

To start off, no, I don't think Anders intended for Hawke to get wrapped up in his scheme. There's a reason why he never tells Hawke what his EXACT intentions are for those 'ingredients' that he has him/her collect (even if Hawke get's suspicious and demands answers.) He believes that if he keeps Hawke in the dark about his plans, he's protecting Hawke from the consequences of his actions.

Recall the poison merchant at the Hanged Man? He says it best: "I just sell the poison. I'm not responsible for what people do with it." (paraphrased.)

Hawke just helps collect the ingredients. Doesn't mean he/she knows/is responsible for what Anders does with them.

But this is why I believe Anders was thinking naively: those in charge of upholding the law rarely (if ever) see things the way the poison merchant and Anders see things.

To talk from personal experience, a friend of mine shoplifted in a store once. While I was with her. I had no idea that she'd stolen anything (nor did I have any reason to assume that she would) but the security guard completely believed that I was involved because (and I quote) "I was standing too close to her to have NOT known what she was doing."

Afterwards, my friend told me that she didn't think I would 'get in trouble' because she hadn't 'involved' me in her crime.

It was naive of her, and it was naive of Anders.

Yes, in a perfect world, helping someone collect fossilized feces won't result in a criminal record. You know, in the event that one of your friends decides to use said feces to create a bomb that blows up half your city. Unfortunately, the reality is that the coppers aren't going to believe you when you tell them that you 'didn't know what your friend was going to do with the poo!'

But as far as Anders goes, no, I do not believe he intended to get Hawke involved.

[phantomdragoness]

MorningBird wrote...

If anyone was acting naively, I believe it was Anders, not any of posters in this thread.

To start off, no, I don't think Anders intended for Hawke to get wrapped up in his scheme. There's a reason why he never tells Hawke what his EXACT intentions are for those 'ingredients' that he has him/her collect (even if Hawke get's suspicious and demands answers.) He believes that if he keeps Hawke in the dark about his plans, he's protecting Hawke from the consequences of his actions.

Recall the poison merchant at the Hanged Man? He says it best: "I just sell the poison. I'm not responsible for what people do with it." (paraphrased.)

Hawke just helps collect the ingredients. Doesn't mean he/she knows/is responsible for what Anders does with them.

But this is why I believe Anders was thinking naively: those in charge of upholding the law rarely (if ever) see things the way the poison merchant and Anders see things.

To talk from personal experience, a friend of mine shoplifted in a store once. While I was with her. I had no idea that she'd stolen anything (nor did I have any reason to assume that she would) but the security guard completely believed that I was involved because (and I quote) "I was standing too close to her to have NOT known what she was doing."

Afterwards, my friend told me that she didn't think I would 'get in trouble' because she hadn't 'involved' me in her crime.

It was naive of her, and it was naive of Anders.

Yes, in a perfect world, helping someone collect fossilized feces won't result in a criminal record. You know, in the event that one of your friends decides to use said feces to create a bomb that blows up half your city. Unfortunately, the reality is that the coppers aren't going to believe you when you tell them that you 'didn't know what your friend was going to do with the poo!'

But as far as Anders goes, no, I do not believe he intended to get Hawke involved.

That's a very good point, actually.

[Vormaerin]

Elthina was the one sane person anywhere near power in the city. I had already refused to help him and was trying to get rid of Meredith anyway. Then he goes and guarantees that Meredith looks right. &#*@# Of course, there was no way I was going to let Meredith execute my sister, so... I end up with a party of Fenris (anti mage), Aveline (anti mage), and Varric (hates them both) saving mages from the Templars. Heh.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 25 mars 2011 - 09:20 .

[Sabriana]

Yeah, that's why my Hawke helped him gather the ingredients too. He was her friend, and while the "Sela Petrea, manure, urine, etc" raised all kinds of red flags and alarm bells in me, my Hawke was totally ignorant. Heck, she didn't even know gunpowder/explosives existed before running into dwarf dude, let alone the ingredients.

Anders felt he had to do something drastic, he also knew he couldn't possibly collect the ingredients on his own. Personally, I believe he tried his best to minimize her involvement out of pure friendship.

The thing that really hurt my Hawke's feelings is that he used her compassion and her willingness to help him rid himself of justice/vengeance to further his agenda. However, in Anders' mind, that might have been the only way he saw getting her to help him.

[MorningBird]

Sabriana wrote...

Yeah, that's why my Hawke helped him gather the ingredients too. He was her friend, and while the "Sela Petrea, manure, urine, etc" raised all kinds of red flags and alarm bells in me, my Hawke was totally ignorant. Heck, she didn't even know gunpowder/explosives existed before running into dwarf dude, let alone the ingredients.

Anders felt he had to do something drastic, he also knew he couldn't possibly collect the ingredients on his own. Personally, I believe he tried his best to minimize her involvement out of pure friendship.

The thing that really hurt my Hawke's feelings is that he used her compassion and her willingness to help him rid himself of justice/vengeance to further his agenda. However, in Anders' mind, that might have been the only way he saw getting her to help him.

To be honest (and while I fully acknowledge that this is a bit of a stretch) one could argue that Anders DID use the ingredients to rid himself of Justice, or try to.  It just wasn't in the way that Hawke would have wanted/expected.

After accepting Anders' quest, Hawke says something along the lines of: "It must be worth the risk."

To which Anders replies, "It is!  Even if--" before abruptly cutting himself off.

After blowing up the Chantry and having his grand scheme exposed, Anders says this: "At least now, Justice can be free."

Basically, because Anders fully expected to die for his crimes, he DID plan on separating himself form Justice.  Just through death, and not a potion. xD

Modifié par MorningBird, 25 mars 2011 - 09:34 .