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[Saboteur-6]

MorningBird wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Yeah, that's why my Hawke helped him gather the ingredients too. He was her friend, and while the "Sela Petrea, manure, urine, etc" raised all kinds of red flags and alarm bells in me, my Hawke was totally ignorant. Heck, she didn't even know gunpowder/explosives existed before running into dwarf dude, let alone the ingredients.

Anders felt he had to do something drastic, he also knew he couldn't possibly collect the ingredients on his own. Personally, I believe he tried his best to minimize her involvement out of pure friendship.

The thing that really hurt my Hawke's feelings is that he used her compassion and her willingness to help him rid himself of justice/vengeance to further his agenda. However, in Anders' mind, that might have been the only way he saw getting her to help him.

To be honest (and while I fully acknowledge that this is a bit of a stretch) one could argue that Anders DID use the ingredients to rid himself of Justice, or try to.  It just wasn't in the way that Hawke would have wanted/expected.

After accepting Anders' quest, Hawke says something along the lines of: "It must be worth the risk."

To which Anders replies, "It is!  Even if--" before abruptly cutting himself off.

After blowing up the Chantry and having his grand scheme exposed, Anders says this: "At least now, Justice can be free."

Basically, because Anders fully expected to die for his crimes, he DID plan on separating himself form Justice.  Just through death, and not a potion. xD

In that case I would've rather assited Anders in jumping off of Sundermount peak to "free Justice".

I'll give him credit for surprising me though. I expected that he assassinated Elthia with poison not orchestrated a giant fireworks display.

[Estelindis]

You're not alone, obviously, but I'm not in that boat with you. I was outraged and devastated by what Anders did (particularly as I had guessed what he was trying to do and refused to help him). It was an incredibly powerful and horrible moment.

[Serelir]

MorningBird wrote...

After blowing up the Chantry and having his grand scheme exposed, Anders says this: "At least now, Justice can be free."

Basically, because Anders fully expected to die for his crimes, he DID plan on separating himself form Justice.  Just through death, and not a potion. xD

That is an excellent point that I hadn't considered, and makes it even sadder that he asked for Hawke's help.

I'm very curious about the next chapter in this story, about how exactly the other circles became free, and how Anders coped with what he'd done and his relationship to Hawke because of it (providing you spared him, as I did). It makes me wonder whether groups of apostates aligned against groups of blood mages, and what happened with the remaining lyrium-addicted Templars. This story isn't over!

[Hellosanta]

I was upset, at the first time. Then I have gotten to understand Anders's position (pretty much convinced, you can say that) through multiple playthroughs. Now I'm going to try siding mages and romancing Anders with blood mage specialized Hawke 8D!!

Modifié par Hellosanta, 25 mars 2011 - 06:56 .

[galian77]

Didn't read the whole thread...too long and it's 3AM :-(

But no, not upset at all. The way I saw it, desperate people resort to desperate measures, and desperate times call for desperate measures. Besides, he wouldn't have been the first, or last, character/companion/LI to do something stupid or commit some heinous crime.

[Critical Miss]

I really hated Anders in my first run through of the game. Played an anti-blood mage mage, so she basically did the Templars work. She was a pious spirit healer. When Anders pulled his stunt it was upsetting and my mage killed him. She ended up having the respect of the Templars and the people of Kirkwall were begging her to rule.

Just finished a second run through with a blood mage that romanced Anders, and he supported Anders all the way. Most satisfying ending IMO. Now I like Anders. He had every right to do what he did because like he said, there can be no compromise and the plight of mages must be addressed, even if it leads to war. I used to have sympathy for the Templars. I don't anymore and they deserve everything they get.

[Emperor Iaius I]

It . . . was just wrong. I hate the templars and the chantry, but I'd prefer to face them on the battlefield, and then perhaps sack the chantry as spoils of war (giving due regard to any works of art, texts, and priestesses etc). Sneaking in and blowing it up is cowardly.

[Medhia Nox]

@Emperor Iaius I: You mean it doesn't make you just wanna hug poor, tortured Anders? I mean, he lost a cat - doesn't that make blowing something up justifiable?

[v_ware]

He's insane. The Grand Cleric was innocent. She was always trying to calm the mages and Templars down.

He's just a terrorist.

[MorningBird]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Emperor Iaius I: You mean it doesn't make you just wanna hug poor, tortured Anders? I mean, he lost a cat - doesn't that make blowing something up justifiable?

Wow, you think Anders blowing up the chantry was justifiable because he lost his cat?  That's some sound logic you've got there.

Modifié par MorningBird, 27 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[LobselVith8]

v_ware wrote...

He's insane. The Grand Cleric was innocent. She was always trying to calm the mages and Templars down.

He's just a terrorist.

The templars serve the Chantry, not the other way around. The Grand Clerics are second only to the Divine, and it was within her power to put a stop to Knight-Commander Meredith's abuse of authority. She didn't do anything to stop the plight of the mages. When people were being raped, tortured, and made tranquil despitre having gone through the Harrowing, she did nothing to put a stop to it. She's the most high ranking member of the Chantry, to the point she ordered templars to escort the First Enchanter back to his cell "gently," and she did nothing to end the horrors that mages were going through. Anders wanted to see his people emancipated from slavery, not endure a truce that would have changed nothing for the suffering of mages across Thedas. And what happened as a direct result of his actions? The mages of the Circles broke free from the Chantry.

[Xewaka]

LobselVith8 wrote...

v_ware wrote...
He's insane. The Grand Cleric was innocent. She was always trying to calm the mages and Templars down.
He's just a terrorist.

The templars serve the Chantry, not the other way around. The Grand Clerics are second only to the Divine, and it was within her power to put a stop to Knight-Commander Meredith's abuse of authority. She didn't do anything to stop the plight of the mages. When people were being raped, tortured, and made tranquil despitre having gone through the Harrowing, she did nothing to put a stop to it. She's the most high ranking member of the Chantry, to the point she ordered templars to escort the First Enchanter back to his cell "gently," and she did nothing to end the horrors that mages were going through. Anders wanted to see his people emancipated from slavery, not endure a truce that would have changed nothing for the suffering of mages across Thedas. And what happened as a direct result of his actions? The mages of the Circles broke free from the Chantry.

No, what came from the terrorist abomination murderous, cowardly attack upon innocent civilian population was a continent engulfing civil war. Which will probably result in a heavier and tighter control of the magi after they're suppresed, as the terrorist assault upon a centre of peace and cult will put most of the continent population against the magi. A revolution cannot win without support from the people.
All the terrorist abomination did was turn the public opinion agaisnt his so-called cause.

Modifié par Xewaka, 27 mars 2011 - 02:30 .

[Gamer Ftw]

MorningBird wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Emperor Iaius I: You mean it doesn't make you just wanna hug poor, tortured Anders? I mean, he lost a cat - doesn't that make blowing something up justifiable?

Wow, you think Anders blowing up the chantry was justifiable because he lost his cat?  That's some sound logic you've got there.

No it's justifiable because mages were being raped, slaughtered, and abused.
The cat had nothing to do with it. If you listen at all he only says the cat is why he left the wardens. THE REASON HE BLEW UP THE CHANTRY IS NOT THE CAT!
He clearly says he wants to fight back against mage children being taken from their parents.
How you could have possibly missed that in your playthrough is beyond me.
I think you just go on about the cat thing to deflect that he was trying  to do something about the situation the mages were in.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 27 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[Big I]

Why didn't he just blow up the Gallows? He even had his secret way into it from Act 2. But no, apparently "Justice" means wiping out some innocent bystanders. He's a total hypocrite


Edit: Also, why is he only concerned about mages? Why doesn't he seek justice for the elves stuck in the alienage, or the refugees stuck in Darktown?

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 27 mars 2011 - 02:54 .

[MorningBird]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Why didn't he just blow up the Gallows? He even had his secret way into it from Act 2. But no, apparently "Justice" means wiping out some innocent bystanders. He's a total hypocrite

Because the circle of magi is in the Gallows?

[Kotetsimaru]

My post from another one of these Anders threads.

Myself I can technically see the blowing up the Chantry as the Justice/Vengeance option.  I mean they just sat there letting the templars get away with the atrocities they were committing praying that their god would make it all better.  You can't just ignore something and hope it goes away, in anders/justice eyes it probably looked like they were actually one of the main causes for the injustices against the mages because they'd let them happen and didn't do a thing about them causing things to escalate to where they were. 
By blowing up the Chantry it showed the world that this could no longer be allowed to happen, it will have got the attention of everyone to look and see what happens when you abuse people and think it's ok to let it happen.
With the Grand Cleric removed it also meant there was nobody there to keep allowing those things to happen while just brushing it under the carpet and saying it's not happening.

Of course by the end of the game I also feel Anders is Merediths polar opposite, while she sees blood mages hiding behind every corner Anders sees injustice against mages.  He even starts accusing members of your party in party banter.

[Serelir]

People seem to forget all those Ferelden refugees that Anders treated for free. Weigh that against the deaths of some useless, parasitic chanters, and I think Anders comes out ahead in the social welfare department.

[Lord Gremlin]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

Same here. If only I could blow up the chantry personally...

[shaneho78]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

a better option would have been to blow up Meredith.

And Orsino. With a bomb made by sandal strapped to his chest while they were arguing at the start of act 3. 3 pple dead better than 300 templars and mages (and the grand cleric) dead. Simple utilitarianism.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Blowing up that self righteous chantry, proving that both the templars AND mages were wrong, and allowing all that to culminate in what sexy huge magical explosion?

Seriously? It just made me want him even more

[Huntress]

Some Geth wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

No, it's because there is no comparison in the CURRENT real world. In the current world we don't jail people, lobotomize them, refuse them the right to have family and loved ones... just because of how they are born. Not in the western world. And everywhere else, I don't live there so I cannot judge for them how bad it is or isn't.
Ask me about the parallels to the holy wars and whatnots, and I'd say "yep, blow up the Vatican, I'm down with that". If you ask me about the persecution of "witches" in North America, and ask me how I feel if someone had blown up a huge church... I'd see their point entirely.

Ask me if my country becomes church obsessed and starts locking up gay people and enslaving any woman who will not "know her place"... will I eventually feel it justified in blowing up some churches who are condoning a group that is part of them to persecute, kill and lock up people different than them... if things get really bad, then yes. I think so.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that a parallel to an equivalent existing situation would make me rethink my stance on Anders... go right ahead. Your prerogative and all that.
Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

Oh wow you are a crad=].

Mages can kill people hell kingdoms if they want just like Anders did not at all like the witches of real life=].

And by the way there are tons of better ways to get freedom than to blow people up.

Really? I want to read about that.

What Anders did, was the same more or less than Andraste did in her time, the warden too destroyed others people little worlds if you remember, I bow to him, he is a Hero!

[Cyradis314]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

I'm only upset he doesn't tell his love interest what he's going to do. I can support what he's doing, but not the going behind my back to do so. That's the reason I'm romancing Fenris in playthrough #2 instead of Anders (still not killing Anders, because I like the character overall).

[KawaiiKatie]

I was only upset that Anders lied to me. If any of the writers are watching, thank you for including that as a dialogue option for Hawke! Something to the effect of "I might have understood, had you only told me!" I'm really grateful that there was an option role play something other than complete horror at Anders' actions.

[pimple]

I was not upset that he started a war so much as with his choice of target (and with not letting me in on more of the planning-I was an apostate and his lover my first game). Why not put the bomb in the Templar Hall? Or pull the old fashioned technique of killing off the templars one by one in back alleys until their numbers are down too far? The ineptitute bothered me. And I felt sorry for that guy who was always trying to pray his STDs away (he cracked me up, though I hated that damned cleric woman and did not give a crap if she died). But I must admit, one of my first thoughts after it blew up was "No! They might come after Anders! Must guard him!" I had a lot of sympathy, but I think he went a tiny bit too far.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Emperor Iaius I: You mean it doesn't make you just wanna hug poor, tortured Anders? I mean, he lost a cat - doesn't that make blowing something up justifiable?

After the awful things that foul abomination said to Merrill? Absolutely not. He deserves all the pain he gets.