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[Kotetsimaru]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Emperor Iaius I: You mean it doesn't make you just wanna hug poor, tortured Anders? I mean, he lost a cat - doesn't that make blowing something up justifiable?

After the awful things that foul abomination said to Merrill? Absolutely not. He deserves all the pain he gets.

Best conversation between those 2 is the Sir pounce a lot one lol i loved it!

Who knighted him?
Did he have a cap with a feather in it?

[LobselVith8]

Xewaka wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The templars serve the Chantry, not the other way around. The Grand Clerics are second only to the Divine, and it was within her power to put a stop to Knight-Commander Meredith's abuse of authority. She didn't do anything to stop the plight of the mages. When people were being raped, tortured, and made tranquil despitre having gone through the Harrowing, she did nothing to put a stop to it. She's the most high ranking member of the Chantry, to the point she ordered templars to escort the First Enchanter back to his cell "gently," and she did nothing to end the horrors that mages were going through. Anders wanted to see his people emancipated from slavery, not endure a truce that would have changed nothing for the suffering of mages across Thedas. And what happened as a direct result of his actions? The mages of the Circles broke free from the Chantry.

No, what came from the terrorist abomination murderous, cowardly attack upon innocent civilian population was a continent engulfing civil war. Which will probably result in a heavier and tighter control of the magi after they're suppresed, as the terrorist assault upon a centre of peace and cult will put most of the continent population against the magi. A revolution cannot win without support from the people.
All the terrorist abomination did was turn the public opinion agaisnt his so-called cause.

A civilian population? Civilians don't have authority over the military or enslave hundreds or thousands of people in prisons. The Chantry is a considerable power in Thedas, since the population is heavily Andrastian. They also control the Circles of Magi and have their own military, the Order of Templars. You can't say he attacked a civilian when the Grand Cleric's authority supercedes that of Knight-Commander Meredith, which was the very reason First Enchanter Orsino was heading to her in the first place. What resulted fro Ander's actions, as Varric reveals, is the Circles broke free from the Chantry. A thousand years of subjugation ended the moment all of the Circles across the continent broke free from their oppressors.

Public opinion was never focused on mages having basic rights or being freed from Chantry control. It never happened in a millennia of Andrastian history, and the only change that resulted came from Anders' actions. Despite you seeing what he did as a detriment, the fact is that the Circles are currently free. Had nothing been done, perhaps another thousand years of oppression would have awaited the Circles, because nobody had an interest in seeing their fate change.

[Killjoy Cutter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A civilian population? Civilians don't have authority over the military or enslave hundreds or thousands of people in prisons.

What country do you live in, if I can ask? 

In the US, civilians do have authority over the military, and do send millions of people to prison.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can't say he attacked a civilian when the Grand Cleric's authority supercedes that of Knight-Commander Meredith, which was the very reason First Enchanter Orsino was heading to her in the first place.

The pope has authority over the Swiss Guard but that doesn't make him any less of civilian in the eyes of the world.

Same for most of other countries in the world -- the head of state has authority over the military leaders, but typically isn't considered part of the military himself/herself. Unless the country happens to be governed by some sort of military junta (or dictatorship)

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 mars 2011 - 01:31 .

[Autodoll]

I think the writers did fantastically on this. Giving a companion such an important role - I love it. As for what he did, I personally think there could have been a better way, but Anders at least took initiative. As Isabela said, "Bold plan". It was, and it makes his character that much deeper. He's hypocritical, vengeful, and close-minded, but he's determined and willing to sacrifice himself for his cause. Better than Fenris, who rants about the Imperium yet has no goal beyond his own freedom. And my "end justifies the means" mage!Hawke approved as well, and she sided with him. I think he intended to make himself a martyr, however, and I'm curious how this will effect the rest of the story (if it honestly ends here, I will be so disappoint).

[LobselVith8]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A civilian population? Civilians don't have authority over the military or enslave hundreds or thousands of people in prisons.

What country do you live in, if I can ask? 

In the US, civilians do have authority over the military, and do send millions of people to prison.

I don't recall civilians having the authority to directly command soldiers to do anything. A civilian can't go up to soldiers and command them as though they were superior officers. Grand Cleric Elthina ordered templars to send First Enchanter Orsino to his cell, and to escort him "gently." The codex for the Chantry Hierarchy also acknowledges that the Grand Cleric is second in rank only to the Divine herself.

Furthermore, criminals in the U.S. aren't enslaved. There's a significant difference between sending criminals who break the law to prison and imprisoning people for life because they have inherent differences than the rest of the population.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can't say he attacked a civilian when the Grand Cleric's authority supercedes that of Knight-Commander Meredith, which was the very reason First Enchanter Orsino was heading to her in the first place.

The pope has authority over the Swiss Guard but that doesn't make him any less of civilian in the eyes of the world.

Same for most of other countries in the world -- the head of state has authority over the military leaders, but typically isn't considered part of the military himself/herself. Unless the country happens to be governed by some sort of military junta (or dictatorship)

When I made that statement, I based 'civilian' on the definition found in the dictionary:


n.

   A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.
   A person who does not belong to a particular group or engage in a particular activity.
   A specialist in Roman or civil law.

The Grand Cleric is a high ranking member of an organization and can command the military of the Chantry to purge the Circle at her discretion, as she alone holds the power to grant the Rite of Annulment. Although she is not expressly part of the Order of Templars, she's the highest ranking public figure of the Chantry in Kirkwall.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 30 mars 2011 - 01:40 .

[Jaulen]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

No, I cheered.

[Spetulhu]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall civilians having the authority to directly command soldiers to do anything. A civilian can't go up to soldiers and command them as though they were superior officers. Grand Cleric Elthina ordered templars to send First Enchanter Orsino to his cell, and to escort him "gently."

Sure, chain of command...

The President of my country doesn't personally tell soldiers to go shoot people but she is the highest Commander - she names generals and heads the defense council. If she told the honor guard at the presidential palace to escort someone out they would, seeing as escorting people out is part of their duties. They don't have to call their immediate superior in order to do their duties - it's when asked to do something else that they should (politely in the extreme) make some excuse and go call the commander of the guard.

Since the High Cleric is the highest local church official and templars do escort mages to their cells it's no stretch for them to take Orsino home on her order. They could demand she order Meredith to order them but what's the use? They're just being asked to do their duty, by the highest church authority they'll ever meet.

[sarahN7]

I was upset that he didn't let me help him, I was upset he attacked the Chantry and the innocent people inside. Those who were the real issue were with us. Had he told me, I would have gladly helped him attack the templars, but he didn't give me the opportunity. That is why I was upset. So no, you're not alone.

[Felene]

I was upset Hawke can't force Anders to side with Templars or make him a Tranquill.

Blow up a Chantry full of innocents? I will have you kill your own kind and live to see the retribution that your action cause.

But that is not a choice, ...meh.

Modifié par Felene, 31 mars 2011 - 12:17 .

[Disco Overlord]

I don't see how anyone can use specific real historical figures/examples and compare it to the Chantry/templar/mage dynamic (e.g. the Vatican and Catholicism, slavery of African Americans, oppression of other minority groups etc...) simply because there are too many differences and the fact this is in a fictional world with magic.  You will not find a suitable parallel.

That being said, I do believe the Chantry in Kirkwall is not innocent as people would like to believe, and is in fact pretty twisted.
What kind of religion would force a portion of their members (that is, the templars) to be addicted to lyrium and then control the lyrium supply, thus controlling the templars (as Alistair had stated in DA:O)?

As for the Kirkwall Chantry specifically, the Viscount's son dies in the Chantry; Petrice gets shot to death in the presence of the Mother Elthina, as Elthina turns her head and seems completely indifferent about this.  Something is wrong.
It really seems that the Chantry is holding the leashes of both templars and the mages in the Circle.  It is not an innocent religion, and the people practicing it--allowing this to go on--are not innocent.  Mother Elthina is content with this dynamic and thus is unwilling to do anything about it.

Religions can be good, and others can be bad.  I think the Chantry has its toes in the latter.

What Anders did was a bit extreme, but given the stalemate something drastic would have to happen sooner or later for there to be change.  The templars' quarter may have been a better target to free the mages, but the Chantry is ultimately the enabler.  Not too bad of a target.

It's a shame that there were very little to no possibilities of delving more into the personalities and characteristics of Elthina/Kirkwall Chantry/Meredith/Orsino.  Considering that they are a huge part of the game, I found that this lack of depth was one of the jarring weaknesses of the game.  We don't have many specifics to work on.  I really hope (and am expecting) that this will be fixed in future DLC's.

Modifié par ogreogre, 31 mars 2011 - 12:51 .

[nowherekid85]

Destroy the Chantry? Yes please.

I think most people are upset simply because it was the Chantry he destroyed. If these civilians got killed anywhere else, I don't think it would have been such a problem to so many people.

[Killjoy Cutter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A civilian population? Civilians don't have authority over the military or enslave hundreds or thousands of people in prisons.

What country do you live in, if I can ask? 

In the US, civilians do have authority over the military, and do send millions of people to prison.

I don't recall civilians having the authority to directly command soldiers to do anything. A civilian can't go up to soldiers and command them as though they were superior officers. Grand Cleric Elthina ordered templars to send First Enchanter Orsino to his cell, and to escort him "gently." The codex for the Chantry Hierarchy also acknowledges that the Grand Cleric is second in rank only to the Divine herself.

Furthermore, criminals in the U.S. aren't enslaved. There's a significant difference between sending criminals who break the law to prison and imprisoning people for life because they have inherent differences than the rest of the population.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can't say he attacked a civilian when the Grand Cleric's authority supercedes that of Knight-Commander Meredith, which was the very reason First Enchanter Orsino was heading to her in the first place.

The pope has authority over the Swiss Guard but that doesn't make him any less of civilian in the eyes of the world.

Same for most of other countries in the world -- the head of state has authority over the military leaders, but typically isn't considered part of the military himself/herself. Unless the country happens to be governed by some sort of military junta (or dictatorship)

When I made that statement, I based 'civilian' on the definition found in the dictionary:


n.

   A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.
   A person who does not belong to a particular group or engage in a particular activity.
   A specialist in Roman or civil law.

The Grand Cleric is a high ranking member of an organization and can command the military of the Chantry to purge the Circle at her discretion, as she alone holds the power to grant the Rite of Annulment. Although she is not expressly part of the Order of Templars, she's the highest ranking public figure of the Chantry in Kirkwall.

The President of the United States is a civilian, and also the commander in chief of all US armed forces.  The Secretary of Defense is also a civilian, as are many others at the Pentagon. 

Judges and prosecutors are civilians, and send people to jail / prison all the time.  And in some of those facilties, work detail is a requirement, and enforced -- refusing work detail is punished. 

[Serelir]

Felene wrote...

I was upset Hawke can't force Anders to side with Templars or make him a Tranquill.

Blow up a Chantry full of innocents? I will have you kill your own kind and live to see the retribution that your action cause.

But that is not a choice, ...meh.

Chantry full of innocents? Did you play the same game I did?

To quote Alistair in DAO:

" The Chantry would tell you the Templars are there to defend, but don't let that fool you. They're an army."

I don't think the Exalted March of Andraste's Cult on the Dalish was particularly innocent, either.

[Masako52]

I hate the Chantry so much. So I lol'd when Anders blew it up. I mean, he could've waited until whatshername was out of the building buying groceries before doing it so no one could die. But I was totally like, heck yes Anders, that's a great idea!

Except, I was mad that Bioware made you pick between two massively different outcomes for the ending. I'd rather there be one "default normal good" ending, where, say, you compromise with both sides, but you can choose to do something completely irregular if it suits you.

[thebrute7]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A civilian population? Civilians don't have authority over the military or enslave hundreds or thousands of people in prisons.

What country do you live in, if I can ask? 

In the US, civilians do have authority over the military, and do send millions of people to prison.

I don't recall civilians having the authority to directly command soldiers to do anything. A civilian can't go up to soldiers and command them as though they were superior officers. Grand Cleric Elthina ordered templars to send First Enchanter Orsino to his cell, and to escort him "gently." The codex for the Chantry Hierarchy also acknowledges that the Grand Cleric is second in rank only to the Divine herself.

Furthermore, criminals in the U.S. aren't enslaved. There's a significant difference between sending criminals who break the law to prison and imprisoning people for life because they have inherent differences than the rest of the population.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can't say he attacked a civilian when the Grand Cleric's authority supercedes that of Knight-Commander Meredith, which was the very reason First Enchanter Orsino was heading to her in the first place.

The pope has authority over the Swiss Guard but that doesn't make him any less of civilian in the eyes of the world.

Same for most of other countries in the world -- the head of state has authority over the military leaders, but typically isn't considered part of the military himself/herself. Unless the country happens to be governed by some sort of military junta (or dictatorship)

When I made that statement, I based 'civilian' on the definition found in the dictionary:


n.

   A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.
   A person who does not belong to a particular group or engage in a particular activity.
   A specialist in Roman or civil law.

The Grand Cleric is a high ranking member of an organization and can command the military of the Chantry to purge the Circle at her discretion, as she alone holds the power to grant the Rite of Annulment. Although she is not expressly part of the Order of Templars, she's the highest ranking public figure of the Chantry in Kirkwall.

The President of the United States is a civilian, and also the commander in chief of all US armed forces.  The Secretary of Defense is also a civilian, as are many others at the Pentagon. 

Judges and prosecutors are civilians, and send people to jail / prison all the time.  And in some of those facilties, work detail is a requirement, and enforced -- refusing work detail is punished. 

I respectfully disagree.  The president is not a civilian.  he is the highest authority in the governing authority of our country and is in fact a valid military target in a time of war, as any govenment employee would be in my opinion.

The grand Cleric is the second highest ranking clergywoman in Thedas (second to the Divine) and does in fact ahve the authority to command the templars, thus making her and the Chantry a valid military target in my opinion.

[thebrute7]

Masako52 wrote...

I hate the Chantry so much. So I lol'd when Anders blew it up. I mean, he could've waited until whatshername was out of the building buying groceries before doing it so no one could die. But I was totally like, heck yes Anders, that's a great idea!

Except, I was mad that Bioware made you pick between two massively different outcomes for the ending. I'd rather there be one "default normal good" ending, where, say, you compromise with both sides, but you can choose to do something completely irregular if it suits you.

If Dragon Age II was a High Fantasy game then there probably would have been.  But Dragon Age II is clearly Low Fantasy, which explains why there is not the "third  'I win' option".

[Beerfish]

Hey, no problem with all this talk of 'military targets'. The Mages just instigated war. If I was a radical anti mage person in the chantry, as a templar or anyone else I'd be applauding Anders actions just as much as him. It is now totally open season on all mages. The justification that the Chantry is a military target and none of them are 'innocents' immediately does exactly what mages have complained about through this conflict.

The moment Anders blasts a whole lot of chantry people into oblivion who had nothing to do with this conflict it turns the old mage complaint that. "You can't paint us all with the same brush and punish us all for the acts of a few."

As a high ranking mage hater I now have the excuse I need to try and eliminate mages totally. Thank you very much Anders and Orsino. You have done more to doom mages than any rogue templar like Meredith could ever do.

[ReallyRue]

I was upset with Anders mostly because I didn't understand what the hell he was trying to achieve. If a war broke out between mages and the Chantry, how would the mages ever possibly win? The nations of Thedas would unite against them and they'd be forced to go to ground or flee to Tevinter or something. Assuming every single one of them joined together to form an army, it surely still wouldn't be enough to win. And assuming they did win, presumably their casualties would be so heavy they'd be in no position to do anything afterwards. Add to that the fact that they have no leader.

And that's ignoring the fact that Anders made Hawke unknowingly comlicit in the Chantry attack and resulting Annulment, whether s/he wanted it or not. it's a horrible betrayal of trust. And that blowing up stuff to start wars isn't the answer to anything.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 14 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[JasmoVT]

The Chantry was the only force for sanity in Kirkwall, by making it the target of his rage he proved he was not interested in the plight of the uncorrupted mages but was actively working for the triumph of demons. Fade creatures are not you friends.

[sphinxess]

Beerfish wrote...

Hey, no problem with all this talk of 'military targets'. The Mages just instigated war. If I was a radical anti mage person in the chantry, as a templar or anyone else I'd be applauding Anders actions just as much as him. It is now totally open season on all mages. The justification that the Chantry is a military target and none of them are 'innocents' immediately does exactly what mages have complained about through this conflict.

The moment Anders blasts a whole lot of chantry people into oblivion who had nothing to do with this conflict it turns the old mage complaint that. "You can't paint us all with the same brush and punish us all for the acts of a few."

As a high ranking mage hater I now have the excuse I need to try and eliminate mages totally. Thank you very much Anders and Orsino. You have done more to doom mages than any rogue templar like Meredith could ever do.

and the governments that have long hated the Templars and Orlais calling the shots in their country now have an excuse to toss the Templars out <with such a wide rebellion not much danger of a divine march> I would bet most try to convince the individual chantries to split off from Orlais and the Divine.

[sassperella]

JasmoVT wrote...

The Chantry was the only force for sanity in Kirkwall, by making it the target of his rage he proved he was not interested in the plight of the uncorrupted mages but was actively working for the triumph of demons. Fade creatures are not you friends.

Just a quick comment about the chantry as a whole...

The chantry is the main reason mages are oppressed - and yes they're oppressed, not slaves as such but have been stripped of all human rights. Its religious doctrine calls mages monsters and cursed and accuses them of causing the blights and darkspawn. Now whether or not the story of the Golden city is a true story or metaphor, mages for the last 1000 years have paid the price and there will never be any type of compromise with the chantry as said chantry does not even consider mages to be people and certainly doesn't see them as having any place in the world other than a tool if they need them in a war.

Now i'm not going to comment here on whether Anders was or was not justified as I don't have time to go into it in enough detail, but I just think people tend to forget how much influence the chantry has in the current mages situation in which they've been trapped for 1000 years.

[turian councilor Knockout]

I have a hard time imagine that blow up a chantry will make mages less oppressed but it will certainly force templars to act against them one way or another which contradict everything he been fighting for, What Anders did was selfish and civilian casualties (those who were within the chantry) don't deserve to die just because of his misguided views of what right and wrong.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 15 avril 2011 - 09:11 .

[Gamer Ftw]

his views aren't misguided.