709 réponses à ce sujet

[Serelir]

Addai67 wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...
All of them broke free.  Which tells you what the majority of mages in the circle feel like and they would rather risk death together than live under the chantry any longer.  Which means that Anders was not alone in his need to break free from the chantry and rebel.  And the fact that they are inspired by Anders to do it says a lot about the state between the Circles and the Chantry.  A lot.

That's quite an assumption.  My guess is that the Chantry started clamping down and possibly seeking annullments for other Circles, so the rebellions were self-defense.  I'm sure Anders wasn't alone but he and his jihad buddies decided to drag everyone into it.

It's all in the Maker's divine plan, so I don't know why everyone is getting so upset about it.  Elthina says exactly that if you ask her why she doesn't do anything to help the mages stop Meredith's oppression.

[The Baconer]

Kawamura wrote...

So you're angry at him for being responsible and then... not?

Yes. How would that be a breach in logic? If he's going to force the mages to fight for their lives he might as well try to help them out as well. But instead he expects to be executed, which is effectively the easy way out. As the saying goes, you make your bed and lie in it.

He did a bad thing in hopes it would bring about good things,

One could say the same about Meredith calling for the Rite. Doesn't make it any better morally, however.

Would you have felt better if your Hawke was given the choice to do it?

Sure.

[Addai]

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...
All of them broke free.  Which tells you what the majority of mages in the circle feel like and they would rather risk death together than live under the chantry any longer.  Which means that Anders was not alone in his need to break free from the chantry and rebel.  And the fact that they are inspired by Anders to do it says a lot about the state between the Circles and the Chantry.  A lot.

That's quite an assumption.  My guess is that the Chantry started clamping down and possibly seeking annullments for other Circles, so the rebellions were self-defense.  I'm sure Anders wasn't alone but he and his jihad buddies decided to drag everyone into it.

It's all in the Maker's divine plan, so I don't know why everyone is getting so upset about it.  Elthina says exactly that if you ask her why she doesn't do anything to help the mages stop Meredith's oppression.

  So because Elthina and Anders both wanted to be martyrs, that makes it ok that a lot of other people are going to die? 

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...
All of them broke free.  Which tells you what the majority of mages in the circle feel like and they would rather risk death together than live under the chantry any longer.  Which means that Anders was not alone in his need to break free from the chantry and rebel.  And the fact that they are inspired by Anders to do it says a lot about the state between the Circles and the Chantry.  A lot.

That's quite an assumption.  My guess is that the Chantry started clamping down and possibly seeking annullments for other Circles, so the rebellions were self-defense.  I'm sure Anders wasn't alone but he and his jihad buddies decided to drag everyone into it.

I think Poetics124 is addressing what Varric states at the end of the pro-Hawke ending. "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry, a reminder that the mighty templars could be defied. He had defended the mages against a brutal injustice, and many lived to tell the tale. The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."

The ending indicates that the rebellion was inspired by Hawke because he showed the mages that the templars can be defeated. Varric further states to Cassandra, "You've already lost all the Circles. In fact, haven't the templars rebelled as well? I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages."

[Serelir]

Addai67 wrote...

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...
All of them broke free.  Which tells you what the majority of mages in the circle feel like and they would rather risk death together than live under the chantry any longer.  Which means that Anders was not alone in his need to break free from the chantry and rebel.  And the fact that they are inspired by Anders to do it says a lot about the state between the Circles and the Chantry.  A lot.

That's quite an assumption.  My guess is that the Chantry started clamping down and possibly seeking annullments for other Circles, so the rebellions were self-defense.  I'm sure Anders wasn't alone but he and his jihad buddies decided to drag everyone into it.

It's all in the Maker's divine plan, so I don't know why everyone is getting so upset about it.  Elthina says exactly that if you ask her why she doesn't do anything to help the mages stop Meredith's oppression.

  So because Elthina and Anders both wanted to be martyrs, that makes it ok that a lot of other people are going to die? 

Well, it wouldn't be a very exciting game ending if everyone lived happily ever after.

[Kawamura]

The Baconer wrote...

Yes. How would that be a breach in logic? If he's going to force the mages to fight for their lives he might as well try to help them out as well. But instead he expects to be executed, which is effectively the easy way out. As the saying goes, you make your bed and lie in it.

One could say the same about Meredith calling for the Rite. Doesn't make it any better morally, however.

Sure.

You think it's the easy way out, perhaps he doesn't as much. I would imagine he sees himself as a danger, that what he has done requires his death and that it is the most correct thing to kill him.

Good thing I didnt' say anything about morals. At least, I don't think I did. Maybe I did and I missed it. If so, damn me.

And, as Wardens, we made a lot of choices for people. I don't hear very many people talking about how unfair it was, for example, that we determined dwarf politics, or if they were allowed the Anvil or not. Why not an NPC? 

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

You forgot the part where Rivain is under the influence of the Qun..how do the Qunari treat their mages..oh yeah..right.

Blah blah blah I'm a bloodthirsty little revolutionary...let's bring the Tevinter Imperium back!  It was way nicer to the mages than the stinky old chantry.  Let's ask Fenris how good life is for common people with mages in charge..oops.

You know, if I actually thought you had a valid view point, I could respond with the a list of what the entire nation of Thedas suffered under the Tevinter Imperium.  The Chantry was born of a revolution against Magister overlords; now if they had lovely bloodthirsty people like you or Meredith in charge, they could have slaughtered mages born after the Chantry took over using those grievances as a justification.  They didn't.  They quarantined them instead.  They allow them to develop their powers as long as they can control them; if they can't, they're made tranquil.  Is this the best solution?  Probably not but it was a good one for people that had just thrown off the yoke of slavery. 

Now you think it's justified to reinstate that state of slavery through an act of mass murder.  Let's be real; there are some mages who want to be left alone; and their are some who want to dominate through becoming maleficar.  They want power and have no problem killing mages or regular people who get in their way.  What are you going to do with them in your benign Chantry-less republic?  Imprison them?  Oh, no, that's mean.  Kill them?  Well, kind of pointless to free them if you're going to kill them.  Exile them?  What if they don't want to go?  Maybe just reach an accord, mage to mage and...oops!  The Imperium is rising again, and the people of Kirkwall welcome their new Magister overlords.

If you truly have no problem with what Anders did, you're either historically illiterate in understanding the history behind the game; or you're a bloodthirsty weirdo who probably needs to go on some kind of watch list.  You've got problems.

The Mages of Kirkwall have nothing to thank Anders for;  nor does the rest of Thedas.  Read over the faction philosophies in DAO.  Peaceful coexistence is a minority view.  Keep in mind how easily the mages turned to blood magic and domination by demons; they're under constant temptation.  The chantry system needed reform as did the individual Knight Commanders but Anders' destroyed that possibility.  Of course, I don't believe Anders as he was originally written would have done what he did anyway..but it's fun to watch people defend mass murder.  I hear Hitler could use a new modern publicist...you should apply.

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...

The more people defend the Chantry, the more I consider the Chantry an abomination for the following:

1. Taking children from their mothers.
2. Keeping them locked up for their entire lives..
3. Forbidding them to marry.
4. Forbidding them to have children.
5. Profiting off their labor.
6. Keeping them under constant surveillance.
7. Raping and abusing them.
8. Keeping them in a constant state of fear.
9. Lobotomizing any mage who doesn't obey.

How is this any different from slavery? Those who keep arguing that mages are dangerous don't understand the concept of Innocent Until Proven Guilty. They also haven't read all the posts explaining that mages turned to blood magic in their desperation to be free.

The Chantry also destroyed the Dales, land given by Andraste to Shartan and the elves for aiding her. Those elves who didn't become homeless migrants were rounded up in alienages, made to serve humans, and treated as inferior creatures.

The Chantry is completely hypocritical. The Divine Mother, as the head of this institution, did NOTHING to make life better for the mages and therefore prevent a war. Kill them all and let the maker sort them out is her attitude. The Templars are a bunch of leeches.

If you played DAO, you know that the Mages Collective is perfectly capable of hunting down and destroying any maleficars, and they don't need to be addicted to lyrium to do it. Rivain has free mages, and it hasn't turned into a Tevinter-like tyranny. Rivain also does not follow the Cult of Andraste, fancy that! Duncan was from Rivain, which is probably why he was so open-minded about mages. I will always be grateful to him for rescuing me from the Circle and Alistair from the Templars.

I think I'll play the game over just to blow up the Chantry again.

[The Baconer]

Kawamura wrote...
You think it's the easy way out, perhaps he doesn't as much. I would imagine he sees himself as a danger, that what he has done requires his death and that it is the most correct thing to kill him.

All while saying the faster he dies, the faster his name is used as a rallying cry for the mages. Once again, all glory, no guts.

Good thing I didnt' say anything about morals. At least, I don't think I did. Maybe I did and I missed it. If so, damn me.

These threads usually involve lots of moral-based arguments. I apologize for the assumption.

And, as Wardens, we made a lot of choices for people. I don't hear very many people talking about how unfair it was, for example, that we determined dwarf politics, or if they were allowed the Anvil or not. Why not an NPC? 

I only meant that in the event that I did choose to nuke the Chantry, I wouldn't go sit on a box waiting to get murderknifed.

[Serelir]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

 I hear Hitler could use a new modern publicist...you should apply.

""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving ****s or Hitler approaches. In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope— someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the ****s."

ROFL

[Kawamura]

Stupid commuting network.

Modifié par Kawamura, 15 avril 2011 - 06:04 .

[Kawamura]

The Baconer wrote...

All while saying the faster he dies, the faster his name is used as a rallying cry for the mages. Once again, all glory, no guts. These threads usually involve lots of moral-based arguments. I apologize for the assumption. I only meant that in the event that I did choose to nuke the Chantry, I wouldn't go sit on a box waiting to get murderknifed.

I say facing death is guts. What is the more difficult path is subjective.

You seemed upset at him for taking the choice out of the mages' hands, I thought.

[Addai]

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...
Well, it wouldn't be a very exciting game ending if everyone lived happily ever after.

I doubt anyone is going to their therapist because a pixel man bombed a pixel Chantry.  But in terms of the game story, Anders did a dick thing, and saying "it's the Maker's will so why be upset"... just doesn't make a lot of sense.

[The Baconer]

Kawamura wrote...
I say facing death is guts. What is the more difficult path is subjective.

You seemed upset at him for taking the choice out of the mages' hands, I thought.

Both tick me off. I'd rather he didn't force the mage's hands, but since he always does I think he should at least help fight in the rebellion afterward, you know? I guess he doesn't want to have to see the death his actions bring about.

[Poetics124]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Poetics124 wrote...
All of them broke free.  Which tells you what the majority of mages in the circle feel like and they would rather risk death together than live under the chantry any longer.  Which means that Anders was not alone in his need to break free from the chantry and rebel.  And the fact that they are inspired by Anders to do it says a lot about the state between the Circles and the Chantry.  A lot.

That's quite an assumption.  My guess is that the Chantry started clamping down and possibly seeking annullments for other Circles, so the rebellions were self-defense.  I'm sure Anders wasn't alone but he and his jihad buddies decided to drag everyone into it.

I think Poetics124 is addressing what Varric states at the end of the pro-Hawke ending. "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry, a reminder that the mighty templars could be defied. He had defended the mages against a brutal injustice, and many lived to tell the tale. The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."

The ending indicates that the rebellion was inspired by Hawke because he showed the mages that the templars can be defeated. Varric further states to Cassandra, "You've already lost all the Circles. In fact, haven't the templars rebelled as well? I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages."

Yes, that was what I was addressing.  We know from Awakening that there are different mage camps in what they believe their roles in the chantry.  Some wanted complete separation.  Some wanted more freedoms.  Some wanted to obey the Chantry.   The fact that all of the different group came together to overthrow the chantry says something about how bad it had gotten for mages, and not just in Kirkwall.

This is not to say that I think Anders was right in what he did.  But I do think that what he did set fire to desires that were already there in mages, enough so that they would risk their lives for it.

We've also shown, especially in the case of Meredith, that it doesn't take being a mage to be tempted by evil.  The irony of Meredith is that she became something that she feared in the end.  Something very close to an abomination.  Which is why I love this game so much.  It's not simple black and white.  Or as Varric said, both of them suck. 

[Zyah.ftw]

It was pretty messed up what Anders did. My PC is always a mage, and even though I agree with Anders about mages being free, you just dont go killing innocents. I mean my first playthrough i was like WTH Anders! Not to mention DA2 seemed like they wanted you turn against the mages. Everytime you would side with or protect a mage they went all crazy and resorted to blood magic. It got kinda tiring defending them to Fenris and others. I just knew everytime my Hawke would say "not all mages were bad" some crazy mage would start up trouble.

[psychshift_original]

k i think i figured it out though a few bilsons helped with this theory win win situation bioware u clever devil see sebastien wasnt sure about going back and claiming his title but by letting anders help out redeming  at least a little
u kinda mind trick him to march back and take his ritefull place on the throne and in an expansion im betting u deal with those consequences and by then maybe his forgiven anders or not as angry but u will probaley have a option of stoping him from invading kirkwall and killing all the mages or something like that anyway just a theory.

[sheppard7]

Zyah.ftw wrote...

It was pretty messed up what Anders did. My PC is always a mage, and even though I agree with Anders about mages being free, you just dont go killing innocents. I mean my first playthrough i was like WTH Anders! Not to mention DA2 seemed like they wanted you turn against the mages. Everytime you would side with or protect a mage they went all crazy and resorted to blood magic. It got kinda tiring defending them to Fenris and others. I just knew everytime my Hawke would say "not all mages were bad" some crazy mage would start up trouble.

It's funny but first playthrough was a rogue and I always wanted to side with the mages mostly for Bethany. But it got tough since Bethany was the only sane mage there was and she was snatched from me when I hit the deep roads. So all I got after that was the loony bin mages.

Next playthrough was mage and I was ready to go Templar right from the start knowing how all the rest of them are loony and even Meredith said she allowed Hawke to stay outside the Circle because Hawke was acting for the good of the people for the most part. So I was even feeling Meredith was more honorable than the mages.

So killing Anders was necessary because mages in Kirkwall are all nuts and dangerous to be free unlike the ones in Fereldan.

[Gamer Ftw]

So it is ok for the chantry to kill innocents but not for Anders?
Have you forgotten the exalted march on the elves?

[Kawamura]

The Baconer wrote...

Kawamura wrote...
I say facing death is guts. What is the more difficult path is subjective.

You seemed upset at him for taking the choice out of the mages' hands, I thought.

Both tick me off. I'd rather he didn't force the mage's hands, but since he always does I think he should at least help fight in the rebellion afterward, you know? I guess he doesn't want to have to see the death his actions bring about.

And I guess he thinks that, because he did sometihng wrong, even if he felt it was necessary, he should die because that's the most just thing.

Like I said before, you made choices as the Warden that involved taking those choices from others. Were you upset at yourself?

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

I doubt anyone is going to their therapist because a pixel man bombed a pixel Chantry.

Apparently you skimmed over the self-righteousness earlier in the thread...

[The Baconer]

Kawamura wrote...
And I guess he thinks that, because he did sometihng wrong, even if he felt it was necessary, he should die because that's the most just thing.

Again, I'd buy it if he didn't talk about being martyrd to make his name a rallying cry more quickly.

Like I said before, you made choices as the Warden that involved taking those choices from others. Were you upset at yourself?

I'll have to get back to you on that when my Warden forces a genocide.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

I wasn't upset about it nor was I surprised. Apparently during the three year blackouts my companions were getting together to think of new ways to destroy my quiet little neutral life.

Isabella: I've got an idea..
Anders: Lets hear it.
Isabella: I'm going to steal a book from the Qunari and not give it back!
Merrill: Brilliant! I'm going to keep dabbling in bloodmagic to build a mirror and bring on the destruction of my whole clan!
Varric: Awesome! I'm going to take us into the Deep Roads to recover a dangerous idol that my brother will sell to Meredith thus encouraging her neurosis.
Anders: Fantastic! I'm going to blow up the Chantry and start a war!
Sebastian: Lovely! As a result I'm going to declare revenge on Hawke!
Fenris: Childsplay! I'm going to brood! A lot!
Varric: You're terrible at this game.

[Kawamura]

The Baconer wrote...

Again, I'd buy it if he didn't talk about being martyrd to make his name a rallying cry more quickly.

I'll have to get back to you on that when my Warden forces a genocide.

What's wrong with that? So he can hurry and and end his life and continue to be the tool he is. He is the mages' cause. If dying makes him a martyr, martyrs make people fight harder. Mind you, he also appears to be suicidal, so he's also got that added tunnel vision going on.

What? It's okay for your Warden to make choices for other people because they don't end in an uprising? And several choices at that. You decide politics for two kingdoms, you deal with an artifact of great power, you can help annul a Circle yourself, you can let go the being responsible for the last Blight or kill it (and kill more dwarves).

You, as your Warden, make a lot of choices for people. Anders makes one. Were you upset that you made those choices for other people? I imagine many of those choices could end in deaths. Through your games, you're killing way more folks/telling your party members to kill way more folks than Anders most likely did on his own.

[Infaela]

The Baconer wrote...

Kawamura wrote...
And I guess he thinks that, because he did sometihng wrong, even if he felt it was necessary, he should die because that's the most just thing.

Again, I'd buy it if he didn't talk about being martyrd to make his name a rallying cry more quickly.

I haven't personally gotten the ending where he says that, though I have heard about it.  He doesn't expect to live, that much is clear from the beginning.  Thus it makes sense to me that he would be comforting himself with a variety of reasons why he should be glad to die.  That he feels he deserves to die and that his martyrdom will fuel the cause aren't mutually exclusive.  After all, the whole reason he's doing it is for the cause, if he feels being martyred will help the cause, why wouldn't he be glad for that?  Why wouldn't he try to focus on such a thing to comfort himself in his final moments?

[Joy Divison]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I wasn't upset about it nor was I surprised. Apparently during the three year blackouts my companions were getting together to think of new ways to destroy my quiet little neutral life.

Isabella: I've got an idea..
Anders: Lets hear it.
Isabella: I'm going to steal a book from the Qunari and not give it back!
Merrill: Brilliant! I'm going to keep dabbling in bloodmagic to build a mirror and bring on the destruction of my whole clan!
Varric: Awesome! I'm going to take us into the Deep Roads to recover a dangerous idol that my brother will sell to Meredith thus encouraging her neurosis.
Anders: Fantastic! I'm going to blow up the Chantry and start a war!
Sebastian: Lovely! As a result I'm going to declare revenge on Hawke!
Fenris: Childsplay! I'm going to brood! A lot!
Varric: You're terrible at this game.

That's actually pretty funny :happy: