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Am I the only one not upset by what Anders did?


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#701
Kawamura

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Kabraxal wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

They are still attacking... hence you have every right to protect yourself from their attacks.  Such a simple concept seemingly escapes you...

And you are still missing the point.  It does not matter that the slavers point of view would colour themselvers innocent... they are slavers and slavery is evil regardless of their personal view.  The actual fact you are arguing that they have the right to attack someone trying to free a sentient being because their warped morals falsely absolve them... it only shows how idiotic your argument really is.


No, it still means I'm willfully killing folks that probably don't deserve to die.

Slavery is evil because of your personal view. In other's... not so much. Not everyone's axioms are the same. Which is part of what makes life difficult. Well. For me. Maybe not you. Or maybe not in the same way.


They might not deserve to die, but they can choose not to attack you and thus not die.

And any personal view saying slavery is not evil is simply wrong.  It is just evil.  Life is only hard because we have fools actually trying to excuse evil.  By your ridiculous argument rape is not evil either.... as long as someone views that they are in the right to rape someone well by golly... it is a perfectably acceptable act. 

To quote Sten: "No."


And that's your perspective, so that's pretty grand! Other people have other perspectives that they are just as sure are right. It's what makes the world go round. Well. That and... angular momentum, I guess.

#702
Kabraxal

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Kawamura wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

They are still attacking... hence you have every right to protect yourself from their attacks.  Such a simple concept seemingly escapes you...

And you are still missing the point.  It does not matter that the slavers point of view would colour themselvers innocent... they are slavers and slavery is evil regardless of their personal view.  The actual fact you are arguing that they have the right to attack someone trying to free a sentient being because their warped morals falsely absolve them... it only shows how idiotic your argument really is.


No, it still means I'm willfully killing folks that probably don't deserve to die.

Slavery is evil because of your personal view. In other's... not so much. Not everyone's axioms are the same. Which is part of what makes life difficult. Well. For me. Maybe not you. Or maybe not in the same way.


They might not deserve to die, but they can choose not to attack you and thus not die.

And any personal view saying slavery is not evil is simply wrong.  It is just evil.  Life is only hard because we have fools actually trying to excuse evil.  By your ridiculous argument rape is not evil either.... as long as someone views that they are in the right to rape someone well by golly... it is a perfectably acceptable act. 

To quote Sten: "No."


And that's your perspective, so that's pretty grand! Other people have other perspectives that they are just as sure are right. It's what makes the world go round. Well. That and... angular momentum, I guess.


If you had chosen anything other than murder, rape, and slavery... I'd agree with you.  In the case of these three there is no place for relativism.  None whatsoever.

#703
Kawamura

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Kabraxal wrote...

If you had chosen anything other than murder, rape, and slavery... I'd agree with you.  In the case of these three there is no place for relativism.  None whatsoever.


In your worldview, yes. I got that. But you're not everyone.

#704
sestrensaz

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My issue I think is with this use of the word 'evil'.  What exactly is 'evil'?  How do you define it; because to me something evil is something that is inherently destructive for no other reason than 'it just is' - something or someone that wishes to mindlessly inflict pain and suffering on anyone and anything around it.

There are many examples of acts in history many would call 'evil' but I honestly struggle with that label because everyone has their motivations, and even thought we can't always see what they are they exist and understanding them is the key to moving away from simply labelling something as evil and moving on, and being able to empathise with those who turn to violence, death and destruction as their only way out so as to prevent it happening again in the future.

For example, Anders isn't instantly evil for destroying the Chantry and killing people (who may or may not have had it coming to them - lets not go there again! lol).  When you look at why he did it, where he was coming from and what events befell him that led him to that path, you can understand and empathise even if you vehemently disagree with what he did.

The example you guys are using of Howe's guards is an interesting one, and I certainly disagree that those people were evil or that they 'deserved' to die either; of course they didn't.  They were following the orders of a man they trusted would send them to fight the wicked and deserving of condemnation - they were guards after all, to take up such a role demands some level of principled morality; they weren't a legion of despicable henchmen, as far as I remember. 

I suspect the majority believed they were protecting Ferelden from a dangerous treasonous criminal when they attack the Warden, but this isn't reality you don't have the luxury of attempting to talk them down; stealth in or create a distraction, it's a game where you have to gather xp to level up so you can go fight the big bad Archdemon!  So, while killing them might feel a little wrong, at the same time it's what you must do, they are attacking and the game ends if you let them just skewer you like a shish kebab because you feel it is wrong to kill them for simply following the orders of a megalomaniacal wannbe dictator.

It's like I mentioned in a previous post, you can't comfortably transfer the morality of the modern world into Dragon Age because Hawke (and the Warden) waltz around commiting acts of murder day in, day out without so much as a battering of an eyelid.  The value on human life is set decidedly lower, and so the murder of a bandit who turned to crime because his wife got sick and he could no longer tend to the family farm as he had to take care of their 6 children doesn't factor in when you're blasting a hole in his face or slitting his throat  for jumping out of the shadows to steal your gold as you walk the streets of Lowtown.

They're nameless, faceless... if they attack you, then you attack back.  It's just the way it is in a game like that.  But do that in real life?  You can expect to be in court facing jail time.  If someone breaks into your house and holds a knife to your kids throat and you killed them, it would be you in the dock facing a judge and jury.  But are you evil?  No, of course not...  If a gang of thugs attacked you as you wandered around at night and you whip out a big arse sword and sliced their heads off, you can bet people are going to think - YOU - have the problem.  No so, in Dragon Age. ;)

Absolute morality does not work, in either direction, society whether it is in a video game or in reality is never so cut and dry, never that black and white.

Whoa that was pretty tl;dr... apologies! haha.

Editado por sestrensaz, 17 abril 2011 - 09:59 .


#705
Paraxial

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No, killing innocents and children is aces in everyones book.

#706
lizzbee

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bleetman wrote...

You're looking at her decision from a logical standpoint, though. She makes it based on faith. The point being that she doesn't openly intervene because, to her, no mortal made argument could be more convincing than what the canticle of transfigurations contains. If the words of the Maker's divine bride aren't sufficient to sway them, what could she possibly say that would?

Besides, she wishes the status quo - a circle of magi overseen and guarded by Templars. By act three, neither side seem interested in continuing that. I think it's overestimated how much one person of influence could accomplish by then.


I'm curious how changing the leadership of the Templars will suddenly bring about the complete destruction of the Circle.  Elthina was probably the worst villain in DA2 to me because two simple actions could have saved the city, the Chantry and her blessed Canticles.  You set up Cullen as the new Knight Commander, promote someone else to First Enchanter, and-- boom!-- status quo is maintained, and violence is averted.  Then the Chantry stays the Chantry, an entire city is spared more ravages, and the faithful can rest comfortably on their laurels that their oppression can continue unchallenged.

Imagine Anders' actions in light of a more moderate Templar order: his "martyrdom" would have been considered completely pointless by the relieved Circle mages.  Knife in the head or public hanging, and you're done.  He'd be nothing more than a footnote in some dusty history tome.

You can't govern well, or expect reality to work properly, if you're hampered by complete and utter idealism.  Even video-game life is governed by a certain degree of pragmatism.

#707
lizzbee

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dumar falls into that category, as does Elthina.


The thing about Dumar was that he had no real power to change anything, unlike Elthina.  He did the best he could with the pathetic deck the city had dealt him.

#708
bleetman

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lizzbee wrote...

I'm curious how changing the leadership of the Templars will suddenly bring about the complete destruction of the Circle.  Elthina was probably the worst villain in DA2 to me because two simple actions could have saved the city, the Chantry and her blessed Canticles.  You set up Cullen as the new Knight Commander, promote someone else to First Enchanter, and-- boom!-- status quo is maintained, and violence is averted.  Then the Chantry stays the Chantry, an entire city is spared more ravages, and the faithful can rest comfortably on their laurels that their oppression can continue unchallenged.

Imagine Anders' actions in light of a more moderate Templar order: his "martyrdom" would have been considered completely pointless by the relieved Circle mages.  Knife in the head or public hanging, and you're done.  He'd be nothing more than a footnote in some dusty history tome.


Alternatively, a more reasoned, moderate templar is promoted to Knight Commander. Tensions between the circle and templars eventually calm. Soon after, the Chantry and everyone inside is destroyed by a rogue apostate. Many within the Order and general populace see the event as an example of what happens when you grant mages leniency, demand for tougher measures of control rises, the wheel starts spinning all over again.

#709
Infaela

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bleetman wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

I'm curious how changing the leadership of the Templars will suddenly bring about the complete destruction of the Circle.  Elthina was probably the worst villain in DA2 to me because two simple actions could have saved the city, the Chantry and her blessed Canticles.  You set up Cullen as the new Knight Commander, promote someone else to First Enchanter, and-- boom!-- status quo is maintained, and violence is averted.  Then the Chantry stays the Chantry, an entire city is spared more ravages, and the faithful can rest comfortably on their laurels that their oppression can continue unchallenged.

Imagine Anders' actions in light of a more moderate Templar order: his "martyrdom" would have been considered completely pointless by the relieved Circle mages.  Knife in the head or public hanging, and you're done.  He'd be nothing more than a footnote in some dusty history tome.


Alternatively, a more reasoned, moderate templar is promoted to Knight Commander. Tensions between the circle and templars eventually calm. Soon after, the Chantry and everyone inside is destroyed by a rogue apostate. Many within the Order and general populace see the event as an example of what happens when you grant mages leniency, demand for tougher measures of control rises, the wheel starts spinning all over again.


It's possible.  But Anders didn't decide to blow up the chantry on a whim.  Events (and Justice) motivated him to do it.  If you take a generous view of his actions, he spent six years resisting Justice's desire to do something more extreme than just help the mage underground.  Trying to find excuses and ways to reason with them and seek compromise.  It was only the destruction of the underground, the increased number of mages being made tranquil, and the rise of tensions between the mages and templars (sparked by Meredith's attempt to search the tower I think?) that allowed Justice to overwhelm his guilt and gave him a very opportune time to act.  If you take a more cynical view, he paid lip service to the idea of peace and waited six years for things to get so bad that he could do something so extreme in a context that would spark the war he was looking for.

Either way, calm the tensions that flared at the end of the game and Anders probably wouldn't have blown up anything.

#710
Lasien

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Haven't gotten to that part yet, but I already dislike Anders. Not because they changed the character too much (they really didn't), but because Vengence is a moron. He wasn't in Awakening, and I fail to understand how justice is suddenly able to access the fade when the reason he needs a host is because he was cut off from the fade. Also, why is he acting like a hatred demon when he is a spirit of Justice. There was absolutely no reason to go after the mage girl at the end of his quest. She was obviously an innocent. It just seems like they turned into an insane terrorist. And why blow up the chantry? Seriously, go after the person you want to kill, not a public building. You will just make things worse for the people you are supposedly trying to help.

Editado por Lasien, 18 abril 2011 - 02:21 .