709 réponses à ce sujet

[Clover Rider]

 Funny thing is I do like mages but they do need to stop the blood magic(Merrill stops sort of but hey she was the only good blood mage anyway)and I do want them to have a better"freedom"

But what Anders did is wrong and starts a war that could kill all mages so I can't like what he did at all.

Modifié par Some Geth, 21 mars 2011 - 10:22 .

[Psycho_Kenshin]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Oh yeah, bring in Sep 11 attacks. Cause I couldn't see that coming a mile away.
*rolls eyes* Obviously this is a pointless discussion. I'll leave you to your opinions, I'll keep mine.

While it's silly to bring up 9/11, its not much sillier than your "what innocents" simplified way of justifying things.

Modifié par Psycho_Kenshin, 21 mars 2011 - 10:22 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Mages can still be watched and blood magic can still be illegal they don't need to be locked away where they can't do any good.

[upsettingshorts]

DeaHamlet wrote...

I'll leave you to your opinions, I'll keep mine.

Your opinions are open to challenge because you explained them in an open forum.  Just as mine are.  Just as everyone's are.  In short, if you don't want your position challenged, don't offer it.  The preceding is a general statement directed at anyone entering the discussion about the implications of Anders' actions in threads like these.

I don't want to list comparisons that are superior to 9/11 because some of the causes are relatively sympathetic, and making a list labeled "terrorists comparable to Anders" and then listing active or recently active terror groups is a good way to anger people. 

The point I'm trying to make is this:

Terrorism is a tactic.  It is a method of asymmetric warfare utilized to bring about political change that has no regard for, or deliberately targets noncombatants.   Anders utilized this tactic in support of - depending on your position - a sympathetic cause.  Why is that important?  Because it shows how Anders and Justice have changed due to prolonged contact with each other, it demonstrates how far  the struggle between mages and the Templars has escalated, it raises the stakes of the conflict to such a height that Hawke must choose between supporting the police state or terrorism - both reprehensible outcomes that highlight the tragedy of the conflict, and overall deeply effect the severity of the implications of the narrative.

To then say that what Anders did wasn't terrorism chucks all that in the waste bin, and for what purpose?  So we can feel better about supporting him?  Why should we?  If his cause is ultimately just, than the ends justify the means - and we ought make no apologies - including denials - for what he had to do to see it through.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mars 2011 - 10:25 .

[DeaHamlet]

Psycho_Kenshin wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Oh yeah, bring in Sep 11 attacks. Cause I couldn't see that coming a mile away.
*rolls eyes* Obviously this is a pointless discussion. I'll leave you to your opinions, I'll keep mine.

While it's silly to bring up 9/11, its not much sillier than your "what innocents" simplified way of justifying things.

That was more a comment at the fact that the only people you see in the chantry are sisters... aka Bioware should have had people in there praying and such to give much bigger scope to the INNOCENTS thing.  I believed them that there were innocents, I was just like... what? who you talking about? confusion cause I barely saw anyone in the chantry.  That is all.

[Miri1984]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

I'll leave you to your opinions, I'll keep mine.

Your opinions are open to challenge because you explained them in an open forum.  Just as mine are.  Just as everyone's are.  In short, if you don't want your position challenged, don't offer it.  The preceding is a general statement directed at anyone entering the discussion about the implications of Anders' actions in threads like these.

I don't want to list comparisons that are superior to 9/11 because some of the causes are relatively sympathetic, and making a list labeled "terrorists comparable to Anders" and then listing active or recently active terror groups is a good way to anger people. 

The point I'm trying to make is this:

Terrorism is a tactic.  It is a method of asymmetric warfare utilized to bring about political change that has no regard for, or deliberately targets noncombatants.   Anders utilized this tactic in support of - depending on your position - a sympathetic cause.  Why is that important?  Because it shows how Anders and Justice have changed due to prolonged contact with each other, it demonstrates how far  the struggle between mages and the Templars has escalated, it raises the stakes of the conflict to such a height that Hawke must choose between supporting the police state or terrorism - both reprehensible outcomes that highlight the tragedy of the conflict, and overall deeply effect the severity of the implications of the narrative.

To then say that what Anders did wasn't terrorism chucks all that in the waste bin, and for what purpose?  So we can feel better about supporting him?  Why should we?  If his cause is ultimately just, than the ends justify the means - and we ought make no apologies - including denials - for what he had to do to see it through.  

Nicely put.

[Clover Rider]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Oh yeah, bring in Sep 11 attacks. Cause I couldn't see that coming a mile away.
*rolls eyes* Obviously this is a pointless discussion. I'll leave you to your opinions, I'll keep mine.

But the opinions you have are wrong you can't make Anders the good guy here cuz he is not=].

[Gamer Ftw]

I think he is a great guy.
Whether the mages win or not will cast him in the role of hero or villian.
after all history is written by the winners.

[Dave of Canada]

*Edited out, sleep deprived ranting. *

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 mars 2011 - 10:32 .

[Clover Rider]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I think he is a great guy.
Whether the mages win or not will cast him in the role of hero or villian.
after all history is written by the winners.

I have history books by losers who say the winners are wrong so don't give me that BS and I want the mages to win and for Anders to be seen as a villain:wizard:.

Modifié par Some Geth, 21 mars 2011 - 10:34 .

[Gamer Ftw]

if the mages win how can he be a villian?

[Dave of Canada]

Psycho_Kenshin wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Oh yeah, bring in Sep 11 attacks. Cause I couldn't see that coming a mile away.
*rolls eyes* Obviously this is a pointless discussion. I'll leave you to your opinions, I'll keep mine.

While it's silly to bring up 9/11, its not much sillier than your "what innocents" simplified way of justifying things.

That's pretty much why I brought it up. 9/11 is the new Godwin and I hate mentioning it, it's just other references I could've made like the Gunpowder plot aren't as well known.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 mars 2011 - 10:37 .

[Clover Rider]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

if the mages win how can he be a villian?

Well for one he is dead and two he starts a war most people hate wars=].

[Oracle Thunder]

Even though it was terrorism I agree with Anders. If Elthina had chosen a side and worked towards peace maybe I'd feel different (although I hate how mages are punished for the actions of others instead of being judged on their own merits).

I gave Elthina a chance to pick a side and she actually said no good would come of favoring one side over the other. She was not willing to work towards compromise but wanted to bury her head in the sand and hope the whole problem went away. With the Grand Cleric having that attitude (and if I remember correctly from Alistair in DAO she commands the Templars so she commands Meredith) it was no wonder that not only was nothing getting better but it was getting worse. Elthina was supposed to keep the Templars in check. She failed to do so and failed to protect the mages under her care. Yes her care because the Chantry operates the Circle and from the view point that the mages are in protective custody in the organization then someone must ultimately be in charge of it.

The buck stops at Elthina and she chose not to do anything even with Meredith leading midnight raids on mage's families, making mages who passed their Harrowing and did not perform blood magic Tranquil (I doubt Anders would have been Karl's friend if he was a maleficarum) and then the business of Meredith acting as Viscount. Meredith should never have been in that position as her duty was to the Chantry and the Templars. Chantry vows means she was supposed to give up secular ambitions (and perhaps sex if the desire demon in DAO words about her entranced Templar were anything to go by). A new Viscount should have been from either the next noble house in line or by appointment by the regions King/Queen. No good has ever come from Theocracy that I have seen.

Elthina refused to keep her Templars and their CO in check. As for my Hawke her father was a mage, her baby sister is a mage and her cousin is a mage. She sided with the mages and ran off with her lover, Anders. sucked for the Sisters, Mothers and lay Brothers that were in the Chantry at the time but at least it didn't take place during the day...say during the Chant of Light.

[upsettingshorts]

Often actions taken by victors are viewed controversially, but not punished for legally. World War II is full of examples of this.

The US 8th Air Force and the RAF Bomber Command certainly aren't viewed as heroes for what they did to Dresden, or for their strategic bombing campaign at large - which was later proven to have failed to coerce the populace into abandoning the cause of the Third Reich, in fact it strengthened their resolve. Indeed, that is an example of state terrorism perpetrated by the victors in a conflict in which they are understood by common consensus to have been the good guys.

That doesn't change the facts about what they did.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mars 2011 - 10:40 .

[DeaHamlet]

FYI, I never stated that he wasn't a terrorist. The original forum topic here did not ask me if I thought he was a terrorist or not.

It asked if I was upset with his actions. It asked if I can understand his viewpoint.
I can.
I never stated that he was or was not a terrorist.
I said that in his world, his reality, I can see his justification. I can even see a more extreme me, reflected in some of my Hawke roleplaying, as agreeing with him. The real me would see his point and would want him to stick around to help the mages he just started a war on.

I have never been in a position, personally, that is parallel to their world, their situation. Hence parallels to reality are nothing short of crazy speculation. I have often been angry at some actions that were condoned over the years. If some major destruction could have stopped some of the crazy events in history, I don't know if I would be like "no, your actions are unjustified". I know in only the most dire of circumstances I would commit anything of the sort myself, but that's not the question is it?

In the end, I can see Anders' point. In that world. In those circumstances. Yes, mages can be dangerous, but so can anyone else. Put someone in power and they wield immense power. Loghain caused much suffering and turmoil, he was no mage. DA:2 really went all gung-ho on blood mages and demon stuff... DA:O was a lot more balanced, and I can't help wondering if that is because DA:O mages were separated from family and friends, but at least not actively persecuted.

In the game I can see the potential for abuse, I see Fenris' point, I see Anders' point. Neither of their solutions is what I would pick, but I cannot say that I am surprised or outraged that Anders saw no other way. Short of decimating Meredith myself and taking power, I didn't see a short term solution either. Elthina condoned by inaction and I think the fact that she is WARNED and TOLD and she doesn't leave with her flock angers me and makes me not be sympathetic to her at all. I feel sorry for the innocents, but not for her or her chantry.

But in the end, terrorist label or not, is that important? You may wish to make things simple, bring them to a simple yes/no terrorist, yes/no justified... and I simply see things as being far more complex.

The reason I said there's no point continuing discussing is because I do not see what can be achieved. Sure, you can question my motives, what I say, whatever. I didn't say you couldn't. I simply said I don't see the point of MY continuing to engage. I do not really wish to convince anyone really of anything.

The only reason I replied is to clarify that I made NO statement on the terrorism label. And then I went on and on as I do.

[Gamer Ftw]

What he is dead?
when did this happen?
And do people hate wars that will bring an end to opression?

[upsettingshorts]

DeaHamlet wrote...

But in the end, terrorist label or not, is that important? You may wish to make things simple, bring them to a simple yes/no terrorist, yes/no justified... and I simply see things as being far more complex.

Wait, I'm trying to make things simple?  

*blinks for emphasis*

I'm trying to explain how they're more complex.  It is possible to be a terrorist, a revolutionary, an assassin, sympathetic, and still be damned - all at the same time. 

What's simple about my argument is that if as an audience we don't get that part right, we've lost a big part of what makes the story compelling in the first place.

Gamer Ftw wrote...

What he is dead?
when did this happen?
And do people hate wars that will bring an end to opression?

He can be.
If you kill him.
It depends. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mars 2011 - 10:44 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Btw does anyone know where the registration code is on the awAkening box? I can't find mine.

[flexxdk]

I'm still wondering how Anders managed to obtain a GoldenEye...

Either way, I was completely left clueless. I didn't know what I had to do with Anders. My Hawke let him live, but he didn't condone Anders' actions.
I did side with the mages though, because it was just plain wrong what the Templars were doing. And sometimes, the Chantry can be soooo annoying...

I also didn't really see the point in blowing the Chantry up...

Modifié par Whacka, 21 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[upsettingshorts]

Whacka wrote...

I also didn't really see the point in blowing the Chantry up...

It started the war Anders believed was necessary and just.  He was attempting to violently and unilaterally remove the middle ground from the political equation, and he succeeded. 

[Clover Rider]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

What he is dead?
when did this happen?
And do people hate wars that will bring an end to opression?

I killed him(not in my frist playthrough and I hate myself for it:pinched:)and yes/sort of this is not Egypt this is a war a real big war and by the end of it whoever wins more people will hate mages more then they already do.

Modifié par Some Geth, 21 mars 2011 - 10:51 .

[Gamer Ftw]

But they already hated them.
so who cares?

[Miri1984]

From Wikipedia (I know, I'm such a lazy researcher, but it's late and the library is shut)

"Limited political terrorism – Genuine political terrorism is characterized by a revolutionary approach; limited political terrorism refers to “acts of terrorism which are committed for ideological or political motives but which are not part of a concerted campaign to capture control of the state."

Anders doesn't want to take over the Chantry, he wants to break it down. He's not a revolutionary as such.

[Clover Rider]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

But they already hated them.
so who cares?

What you don't want people to like mages?