709 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeowyn]

If mages were seen as tools, healers should be able to run clinics, mages should be able to fight in armies against enemies. I know they used mages to fight against the qunari but other than that they're locked up in their Towers. Knight Commander Greagoir seemed very reluctant to let more mages help fight against the darkspawn in Ostagar, even though Duncan believed that mages would help.
I'm just saying, even though Andraste said "magic is meant to serve man and never rule over him" it doesn't seem like they even let mages help man with their magic the majority of the time.

[V_Burgh]

Truthfully the only thing I was upset with Anders about was that Sebastian wasn't in the Chantry when he did it.

[Clover Rider]

Aeowyn wrote...

If mages were seen as tools, healers should be able to run clinics, mages should be able to fight in armies against enemies. I know they used mages to fight against the qunari but other than that they're locked up in their Towers. Knight Commander Greagoir seemed very reluctant to let more mages help fight against the darkspawn in Ostagar, even though Duncan believed that mages would help.
I'm just saying, even though Andraste said "magic is meant to serve man and never rule over him" it doesn't seem like they even let mages help man with their magic the majority of the time.

And that is why they do need a bit more freedom.

And most people don't take what Jesus said to heart but they think they do but that is as far as I will go into that forum rules and all:whistle:.

Modifié par Some Geth, 21 mars 2011 - 11:52 .

[upsettingshorts]

sonoko wrote...

Terrorism aims at innocent people but since it was the West who invented and supports cultural and economic imperialism American and European civilians are not innocent party here, they are enemies to be destroyed.

sonoko wrote...

Terrorism aims at innocent people but since it was the British Parliament who invented and supports regional hegemony over Ireland, English and Northern Irish civilians are not innocent party here, they are enemies to be destroyed.

sonoko wrote...

Terrorism aims at innocent people but since it was Zionists who invented and supports the state of Israel, Jewish civilians are not innocent party here, they are enemies to be destroyed.

sonoko wrote...

Terrorism aims at innocent people but since it was the German people who elected and supports the Third Reich,  German civilians are not innocent party here, they are enemies to be destroyed.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mars 2011 - 12:00 .

[Gamer Ftw]

The chantry is wrong.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 21 mars 2011 - 12:36 .

[Aeowyn]

Some Geth wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

If mages were seen as tools, healers should be able to run clinics, mages should be able to fight in armies against enemies. I know they used mages to fight against the qunari but other than that they're locked up in their Towers. Knight Commander Greagoir seemed very reluctant to let more mages help fight against the darkspawn in Ostagar, even though Duncan believed that mages would help.
I'm just saying, even though Andraste said "magic is meant to serve man and never rule over him" it doesn't seem like they even let mages help man with their magic the majority of the time.

And that is why they do need a bit more freedom.

And most people don't take what Jesus said to heart but they think they do but that is as far as I will go into that forum rules and all.

Yes I agree. And you can have a conversation with Anders in DAA where he ponders over what Andraste would say if she saw how mages were treated "today". Her words can be interpreted to support both groups, and I think that is one of the points the writers are trying to make here. Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 21 mars 2011 - 11:57 .

[Taura-Tierno]

But Anders didn't destroy the Chantry because they were "the enemy", he destroyed the Chantry because the Grand Cleric was the "neutral party" who could even try to achieve a peaceful solution. He didn't destroy the enemy, he destroyed the mediator.

[syllogi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

sonoko wrote...

Terrorism aims at innocent people but since it was the West who invented and supports cultural and economic imperialism American and European civilians are not innocent party here, they are enemies to be destroyed.

The real world is a terrible example.  Unless you know of some culture that has been systematically enslaved, told they are cursed and evil, torn away from their families at a young age, have their children taken away if they illegally breed, and are raped and tortured in some cases...by "the West."

[Aeowyn]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

But Anders didn't destroy the Chantry because they were "the enemy", he destroyed the Chantry because the Grand Cleric was the "neutral party" who could even try to achieve a peaceful solution. He didn't destroy the enemy, he destroyed the mediator.

She could achieve a peaceful solution but she never did. She just stood by watching as the situation escalated. Hawke can warn her that apostates are going to attack the Chantry, and she refuses to leave.

[IncendiarySheep]

I loved Anders' character and story. Seriously loved it.  However, I find the whole plot 'twist' of Anders’ blowing up the Chantry nonsensical and I really struggle to get what Bioware was trying to say or suggest by having him, or anyone else, do such a thing.  Indeed, for both my husband (who had no stake in the romance) and I (who did) this felt like a badly executed leaping of a shark ... one so clumsy it ended in a belly flop.  My husband actually turned off the game at that point, ranting about  feeling railroaded into appeasing  fascists or rewarding a terrorist, and is reluctant to play a Bioware game again (which distresses me ... who will I gush to about them?).  I’m sure he’s not the only one.

However, because I just can’t make sense of this particular plot twist, I find this question impossible to answer.  Is Bioware trying to draw a parallel to 9/11? The imagery suggests so.  In which case, no, I can’t support what Anders’ did. I can't really even like him, I suppose, at least without feeling dirty.  But this is where the problem with inserting modern political events into fantasy games becomes silly.  Where is the parallel between the HQ of a politically powerful religious cult that enslaves people who happen to be born mages and rapes,  murders, tortures and uses them and a civilian building in the democractic, modern day US?  Unless you are of the extreme or conspiratorial fringe, or just stupidly anti-American, there is no such comparison. 

I therefore have a hard time equating Janders’ crazy bid for freedom with modern day suicide bombers.  And that's without even taking into account the whole complicating factor of demonic possession.

So I instead chose to see Anders’ acts as more the culmination of a personal story of a disturbed and desperate man, driven mad through his own desire to be something better than he thinks he is (and I no doubt that he wanted to be a better man, and thought Justice could help him be that). In this it is an amazing story of the road to Hell being paved by good intentions, and good men being blind to their own faults when bad men accept them and all that. In that sense, while I don’t support what Anders' did, but I can see how he, and Justice, got there, and I can appreciate the journey

I can also obsess over what is a very emotional love story. Man, was that intense!

For what it’s worth, Anders had got to be one of my absolute favourite characters ever.  I haven’t felt so emotionally involved with a product of someone's emotion since ... well, so long ago I can’t even remember.  I don’t have to agree with what he did to have loved every minute of the ride. 

Modifié par IncendiarySheep, 21 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[upsettingshorts]

TeenZombie wrote...

The real world is a terrible example.

In terms of motives and cause, I agree - but that's irrelevant.

In terms of tactics and rhetoric used to justify those tactics, the real world provides fantastic examples.

[theradicalpunk]

I find it hilarious that you believe the chantry a soft target. Sorry when Sisters, Mothers, and the Grand Cleric can command Knight Templars, Lieutenant Knight Templars , and the Commander Knight Templar then they are in fact epso facto a hard target.

Yes it is a place of faith, but by no means is anyone in there just a devote follower of the Maker.

You guys need to pay more attention how their structure works.

[Thiefy]

i was more in shock than anything, i dont know that i would say upset so much as disappointed really. ended up not killing him and letting him go. he came back to help me though since i sided with the mages

[upsettingshorts]

theradicalpunk wrote...

I find it hilarious that you believe the chantry a soft target. .

You guys need to pay more attention how their structure works.

No, I understand and and do pay attention.  I still disagree, and my standards and reasons for doing so have been explained numerous times in this thread and others.

[Sabariel]

I don't know if you could count me among the upset. I wish he hadn't done it, I wanted to slap him upside the head... several times, but I don't know if it truly upset me...

Ryzaki wrote...

If you ever find yourself asking a "AM I the only one...'

No. No matter what the question is the answer is NO you are not.

Am I the only one who thought this too?

Kidding! :innocent:

Modifié par Sabariel, 21 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[Gamer Ftw]

But you can compare it to the religious opression of the crusades it was wrong then and now.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Man, I wonder how long these threads are going to keep popping up? I can admire Anders's character just for that purpose alone.

[Gamer Ftw]

Lol this was meant to be a fan type thread it kind of got out of hand.

[theradicalpunk]

Sorry but just because religion is involved and their 'house,' for the Maker is open to the public doesn't make it soft target. A soft target can become a hard target when in fact it is use for militaristic purposes.

No religious figure to date has any say or sway over it's military forces that isn't a tool or a douchebag of a country. Seeing as the Grand Cleric can Veto and Order the Knight Commander Templar around she is a military target.

Bit I digress the medieval era didn't have such rules of war and it isn't even earth. It's thadeas. So by Andraste's flaming ass Ander's did what a pimp had to do.

[upsettingshorts]

Good thing those aren't the distinctions I'm drawing at all. 

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can admire Anders's character just for that purpose alone.

That's kind of why I'm so vocal. I think glossing over what he did doesn't do his character or that arc justice.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mars 2011 - 12:49 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Forget handwaving I am on my feet roaring my approval as I slice off templar heads.

[Chiramu]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I was only upset he didn't tell me so I could help.

This is me too, I just wish he would've told me at the very least! Especially since I romanced him, you're suppose to be there for your loved ones when they are suffering, and he was suffering alone T_T.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Good thing those aren't the distinctions I'm drawing at all. 

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can admire Anders's character just for that purpose alone.

That's kind of why I'm so vocal. I think handwaving what he did doesn't do his character or that arc justice.

I don't think anyone is.  At least, I'm not.  Poetic justice can be found in making him face the world that he created, as his writer said a few days ago on this sibject.  It was kind of funny, when I let him live and let him run around with me, he said "This... isn't what I had expected," or something along those lines.  I kinda made me smirk to myself and say "Oh, really?"

So, no, I'm not handwaving what he did at all.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 mars 2011 - 12:53 .

[mesmerizedish]

At the time, I thought Anders was an idiot. Not bad, just stupid. In retrospect, I think he might have more right than I thought about his actions' necessity. Regardless of whether or not the act was good or just or right, I think it probably had to happen, like Hitler's invasions of Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc., the bombing of Pearl Harbor, or the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The ends justify the means.

[upsettingshorts]

It is handwaving/glossing over whenever anyone claims what he did wasn't terrorism. And that's all I ever end up responding to - for a number of reasons.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mars 2011 - 12:53 .