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[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It is handwaving/glossing over whenever anyone claims what he did wasn't terrorism. And that's all I ever end up responding to - for a number of reasons.

I do acknowledge it was a form of terrorism, too.  But many fights fought in the name of change and revolution in history had an element of terrorism -- look at the Sons of Liberty.  I've discussed this with friends from Great Britain -- they mostly thought we were absolutely bonkers.

[Gamer Ftw]

I am saying I don't care whether is was terrorism or not it was justified call it what you will.

[upsettingshorts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I do acknowledge it was a form of terrorism, too.  But many fights fought in the name of change and revolution in history had an element of terrorism.

Yeah, I've said that myself. 

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I am saying I don't care whether is was terrorism or not it was justified call it what you will.

As long as people acknowledge that the "means" was terrorism, I don't really care much how people feel about the "ends."  Because it is fiction, and our characters can be pro-mage, pro-templar, etc.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I do acknowledge it was a form of terrorism, too.  But many fights fought in the name of change and revolution in history had an element of terrorism.

Yeah, I've said that myself. 

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I am saying I don't care whether is was terrorism or not it was justified call it what you will.

As long as people acknowledge that the "means" was terrorism, I don't really care much how people feel about the "ends."  Because it is fiction, and our characters can be pro-mage, pro-templar, etc.

Exactly! 

[Saboteur-6]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I am saying I don't care whether is was terrorism or not it was justified call it what you will.

Uh not so much. Blowing the Chantry to hell and back in order to eliminate ANY chance of progressive compromise is certainly not justified. What about the townspeople/civilians/innocents that were killed in the explosion and the ensuing giant battle? Were their deaths justified? Who gave Anders the right to decide that?

I mean it's obvious that the Mage's are being treated unfairly in DA Lore but orchestrating a pivotal act of terroism/assassination to incite a civil war was NOT the way to go about ensuring Mage equality. If anything, like others have said, it further polarizes the two sides and sowed the seeds of hate, distrust, and chaos. No good will come from this.

What pisses me off is that I thought I ALREADY started to progressively change the way Magic was viewed in Thedas by preventing the mother ****ing Blight with my Mage Warden. Thanks BioWare for retconning that.

[upsettingshorts]

They didn't retcon anything. Listen to what people actually say about Ferelden. The short and crude version is that no-one gives a **** about that place. The Chantry is bigger than Ferelden, and the Chant & Andraste have had far more influence on the culture of the continent than the Warden could ever dream of.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Am I the only one not upset by what Anders did?

Yes.  

[Rinji the Bearded]

Yeah, I get the general feeling that the rest of the world sees Ferelden as a rather silly place. Orlais seems to be the force to contend with, what with it being the center of the so-called White Divine. I will like to see how they plan on taking on Ferelden again AND calming/neutralizing the mages at the same time. Maybe they have to put their plans of taking over Ferelden on hold for now.

But, as the current doctrine stands, Mage freedom is never going to happen unless change is made.  It's a hard subject to tackle ... Under the White Divine, mages are given absolutely no freedom or justice -- the law does not apply equally to them because the Chantry says so.  Under the Black Divine in Tevinter, we have Mages that, at first did have rules applied to them specifically, but they were not strict enough, and eventually we saw the mages coming to power again.  It's a never-ending cycle.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Milana_Saros]

Upset, no. Annoyed and dissapointed, yes.

Still, my mage FemHawke loves him and will stay with him. She, personally, is rather fed up after losing her sister and mother and her brother being with the Grey Wardens now. In addition to that she gets guilt piled upon her by her uncle and her own brother for being what she is. Fenris' nagging doesn't help either. She just wanted to get away from all of it, to be free. Might as well take the leap, spread your wings and go all-out rebel.

My Hawke might not have the strength to go that far but Anders did. Turning the man she loves into a martyr by killing him wouldn't have accomplished anything. And maybe she is selfish in wanting to keep the one person in her life that has always been there for her. And the lying doesn't bother either, it was pretty bad to begin with. He does it all to protect Hawke.

I'm personally beyond thinking if it was terrorism or not. I simply don't see the point in analysing and digging around a fantasy game event in comparison to the real world which is ****ed up to begin with. There are just as many opinions and viewpoints as there are people.

Majority of the Chantry and Templars were terrorising, fanatic butt holes and had that coming for a long time...I feel sorry for the Grand Cleric but she should have realized that giving noble speeches simply didn't cut it anymore.

And the whole blood mage thing...it's a tad overdone. Everyone and their mother is a blood mage. It only makes you wonder if the force-feeding of blood mages is done only to lure some people to side with the templars. It just goes a tad too far, making every mage look like a ticking time-bomb.

Oh and as for Chantry being a church: Sure it is. But it hardly means the same as this pretty little building at the top of the hill of this town where people (who are allowed to choose in what they believe in) go to sing and pray during Sundays. Where they have their weddings and baptise their children etc. The Chantry make you take specific vows, consider non-humans as lesser who need to be converted and they also obviously support the Templars in their crusade, even if mages are just as Maker's creations as everyone else. Hypocrite, much?

Edit: Fixed some tired retardness

Modifié par Milana_Saros, 21 mars 2011 - 01:36 .

[theradicalpunk]

Change is never easy and it's not like I or any of my rogues in DA:O/A or DA2 like or care for this regiem of Mages gotta be locked away behind bolt in door. I think it's a bit classic if not cliche the route their going and I like it all the same.

Anders just had the balls to get change going at a much quicker pace. He's damned himself to be sure. But someone had to do it if we where gonna see our mages as equals.

Mages need to be watched, controlled if necessary, and killed as a last resort. But I smell blood magic and I usually put them down. Merril while all sorts of god damn cute rubs my Rogue the wrong way. Blood magic is the last straw.

[Sarielle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

As long as people acknowledge that the "means" was terrorism, I don't really care much how people feel about the "ends."  Because it is fiction, and our characters can be pro-mage, pro-templar, etc.

I agree with you that calling it not terrorism cheapens the story.

My very moderate mage had a "...****, Anders!" reaction when she saw what he'd done. She was his friend. They drew the same lines in the sand (or had, at least). As an apostate herself she thought the Circle was a failure and unnecessary, but by the same token she did some work for the Templars tracking down blood mages preying on the populace.

So, even though she sided with the mages (and if Anders' bid was ultimately successful -- and from Cassandra we get the feeling the mages are giving the Chantry a run for its money -- she will benefit as an apostate) she couldn't agree that the ends justified the means. (I always felt it became much easier for her to view it this way since she'd been able to live openly as an apostate whereas Anders and a lot of others never had that luxury, but I digress.) So my mage Hawke executed him, after refusing to help him further once she realized he wasn't gathering ingredients to try to separate himself from Justice again.

[Herr Uhl]

Milana_Saros wrote...

Majority of the Chantry and Templars were terrorising, fanatic butt holes and had that coming for a long time...I feel sorry for the Grand Cleric but she should have realized that giving noble speeches simply didn't cut it anymore.

Yeah, they were totally opressive during the events of the game. And it is a correct portrayal by the game.

And the whole blood mage thing...it's a tad overdone. Everyone and their mother is a blood mage. It only makes you wonder if the force-feeding of blood mages is done only to lure some people to side with the templars. It just goes a tad too far, making every mage look like a ticking time-bomb.

Clearly, this part of the game's portrayal was incorrect.

[Saboteur-6]

Milana_Saros wrote...

Majority of the Chantry and Templars were terrorising, fanatic butt
holes and had that coming for a long time...I feel sorry for the Grand
Cleric but she should have realized that giving noble speeches simply
didn't cut it anymore.

I think it's significant that the game introduces Templars like Wesley and Thrask, who question the ideologies of the Chantry and sympathize with the mistreatment of Mages. The conversation Hawke has with Cullen is a good example of potential progressive reform from WITHIN the Templars. Thanks to Anders though that's likely completely out of the question now.

The Circle needn't be a place of subjigation and condemnation.

[vengerturtle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

They didn't retcon anything. Listen to what people actually say about Ferelden. The short and crude version is that no-one gives a **** about that place. The Chantry is bigger than Ferelden, and the Chant & Andraste have had far more influence on the culture of the continent than the Warden could ever dream of.

I thought that was interesting, how Ferelden is viewed in Kirkwall. We played in Ferelden first so it was kind of a shock to realize how poorly it's viewed by everyone else. BTW, if you listen to some of the conversations in the Hanged Man, some people don't even believe it was a real Blight and that it was either made up or an exaggeration. To the people in Kirkwall, Ferelden is the backwater country filled with people who are little better than dogs. And all of the refugees that flooded there during the Blight didn't help. So even if you had a badass mage who saved the whole world, the fact that the mage is Ferelden probably puts a damper on any goodwill you might have earned, especially for those who don't believe a Blight  was a real one.

I see why Anders did that he did. But understanding why he did it, for me, doesn't negate how horrible it was. He wanted a war, he resorted to an act of terrorism to start it, and he doesn't even care about the innocent people he killed to do it. He's apparently one of the "ends justify the means" guys. I wasn't able to kill him for it, but I still don't think it was right, by any means. Especially as it seems, with how bad Meredith had gotten, she was going to end up trying to kill all the mages anyway, and if she had tried to, there would have been no "her reaction was justified because one of them blew up the Chantry!" It would have just been a sick, twisted woman trying to murder a bunch of innocent mages, and that probably would have gone a long way to both earning sympathy and making the other circles rebel.

Modifié par missnicolec, 21 mars 2011 - 01:59 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Showing that nearly all the Mages in Kirkwall were blood mages justified Meredith's actions. In a way, she WAS correct about seeing demons in every shadow. Because there WERE demons in every shadow. But I continue to see this as a failure of the system in general. There have been cruel experiments done on people (and animals) in the real world to prove that locking up innocents with little reason (beyond suspicion in the case of the DA universe) that the individuals do not develop healthy minds. As Anders said, most Circle mages end up dying at their own hand because of this overwhelming despair. Blood magic is easy, and the despairing mindset opens them up to demon influence.

System is broken, yo.

@Vech: But with the way the "Order dictates" right now, that was never possible.  Circles everywhere condone the practices of ripping children away from their parents with no chance of seeing them ever again, calling them curses from the Maker, restricting them from having families of their own, etc etc etc... Can you blame anyone for falling into despair over that?  The Chantry grants the Templars the power to do such things.

Also, Wesley was only willing to compromise as long as the threat of the Blight was over his head.  Any other circumstance, and he would be oath bound to stop Hawke.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[mesmerizedish]

Vech24 wrote...

The Circle needn't be a place of subjigation and condemnation.

But it is, and there's the rub. Anders had made up his mind that change from within was impossible.

My opinion is that his view that terrorism was the only way to achieve justice came from the spirit, not from himself. Anders was goofy in Awakening. He had some principles, but he wasn't this hardened, self-righteous douche knight that he is here. He's under the influence, dudes.

But, as I said earlier, I think that it's a necessary evil in the long run. Without Anders's crime to act as catalyst, change would have been either too slow or it wouldn't have come. It's like everyone telling blacks in the fifties "I agree with you in pricniple, but it's just not the right time." We're talking about freedom and oppression. When the hell is the right time, if not right now?

Of course, if Anders had pulled an MLK, Jr. or a Ghandi and become a leader of nonviolent protests, I think it would have been even better. Say, organize a bunch of mages to run healing clinics like he did, and don't even try to hide it. Here we have a bunch of gifted individuals, giving to the public, and templars coming in, accusing them of apostasy or blood magic, and shutting them down or worse. Now, whose side will the public be on?

Of course, that's not what he did. Which brings me back to my point that he's an idiot who's under the influence.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 01:59 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Those so called innocent people didn't care about him or the mages being abused by religious zealots either.
and I disagree non violent protest in this case would have been dealt with brutally by the templars.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 21 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

I should point out that Justice was corrupted by Anders just as much as Anders was corrupted by Justice.

Justice lost his perspective, Anders lost his humanity.

[mesmerizedish]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Those so called innocent people didn't care about him or the mages being abused by religious zealots either.
and I disagree non violent protest in this case would have been dealt with brutally by the templars.

So? They're still civilians. Sometimes you have to kill civilians, but don't act like they're the enemy anyway. Not caring about your plight is very different from acting against you.

[Milana_Saros]

Vech24 wrote...

The conversation Hawke has with Cullen is a good example of potential progressive reform from WITHIN the Templars.

It is. And I'm put off quite a bit by the fact that we have to resort to war. But it will happen anyway, no matter what. Good people like Cullen (whose personality has been re-designed more or less) do excist but our own real world is a painfully obvious example of how the minority tends to be completely insignificant. There can be 2 awesome employees at a work place but if the boss sucks, they will never reach their full potential.

Thanks to Anders though that's likely completely out of the question now.

The Circle needn't be a place of subjigation and condemnation.

Perhaps. If there was a way to prevent the war, I would've gone for it. I always play highly emphatic characters who always try talking first and deal out kindness and understanding in situations where others would start smashing faces without asking any questions. Sadly, there simply didn't seem to be a solution like that in DA2.

What Anders did is horrible but I honestly can't say that ALL the blame is on him. People come to Champion mage Hawke all the time, asking her help with mages, while bad mouthing mages to her face at the same time. It made me very annoyed throughout the whole game. People can tolerate being treated like crap for ever so long...

[mesmerizedish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I should point out that Justice was corrupted by Anders just as much as Anders was corrupted by Justice.

Justice lost his perspective, Anders lost his humanity.

Sure, but the companion is called Anders, not Justice, so Anders's effect on Justice is less relevant. It's Anders who acts, not Justice.

[EDIT] Or maybe not. That's just how it appears. You could say that both Anders and Justice ceased to be upon their merging, but Anders still refers to Justice and to himself.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Is it?
could a system like that even exist if they hadn't sat by with thier thumbs up there arse while mages were confined and abused?

[Saboteur-6]

@ missincolec and Upsettingshorts:

Those are good points (that the events of DA:O in Ferelden weren't perceived as "on the world-stage") so that undermines any sort of Mage acceptance ripple effect.

[mesmerizedish]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Is it?
could a system like that even exist if they hadn't sat by with thier thumbs up there arse while mages were confined and abused?

Maybe not, but that's irrelevant. Action is not inaction. Inaction is bad, but it's not necessarily worthy of retribution.

[EDIT] Elthina is different, of course. Did she deserve to die? No, absolutely not. But she didn't deserve to be Grand Cleric, because she had a responsibility and she ignored it. Templars, under her supervision, were patently violating Chantry law and she did nothing. That's a case where inaction is as bad as action. But civilians don't have that kind of responsibility.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 02:08 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I should point out that Justice was corrupted by Anders just as much as Anders was corrupted by Justice.

Justice lost his perspective, Anders lost his humanity.

Yeah, it was kind of a back and forth thing with them... Justice comes to Anders because he finds the Circle an injustice, Anders is inspired by Justice and agrees to merge with him, Anders's overwhelming negativity and pent up frustration influences Justice to become Vengeance, Vengeance further incenses Anders...

Then -- boom. 

I wonder what Justice would have done in the case of killing Anders.  Would he really go back to the Fade?  Would he be satisfied that justice was done?  Would he regret becoming Vengeance?  Is he capable of regret?  Would he try to find some other cause to cling to?  Spirits, even ones with noble causes, are extremely dangerous... they have no concept of what we might consider to be lawful and etc., they are born from our feelings.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 mars 2011 - 02:09 .