709 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamer Ftw]

nope It's very relevent you can't sit on the fence.
If you let things like this happen you are to blame for not speaking up.
This is the very reason so many injustices occur in the world.

[mesmerizedish]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

nope It's very relevent you can't sit on the fence.
If you let things like this happen you are to blame for not speaking up.
This is the very reason so many injustices occur in the world.

You can absolutely sit on the fence if you don't have a responsibility to pick a side, which most civilians don't. It's naive to imagine that simply existing signs you up for the human rights bandwagon. Governments, people in positions of power, people with influence... these are entities with the responsibility to affect change. Joe Schmo doesn't.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 02:13 .

[Herr Uhl]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I wonder what Justice would have done in the case of killing Anders.  Would he really go back to the Fade?  Would he be satisfied that justice was done?  Would he regret becoming Vengeance?  Is he capable of regret?  Would he try to find some other cause to cling to?  Spirits, even ones with noble causes, are extremely dangerous... they have no concept of what we might consider to be lawful and etc., they are born from our feelings.

I don't think that the explosion meant that all mages are free, so I don't think he'd need a new cause.

I think he would try to find a new host and if it has spread all over Thedas, finding a mage that sympathizes with his views wouldn't be that hard. I expect him to be back.

[Gamer Ftw]

normal people have changed the world countless times don't be naive.

[Miss Greyjoy]

No, I am not upset about it. From a RP perspective, my Hawke was more upset that he had lied and was sneaky about it, but that's about it.

The only problem with comparing it to the real world is that Thedas does not appear to have the institutions in place to deal with this type of thing. Anders could not appeal to the equivalent of the UN to place TOUGH sanctions on Templars that do not toe the line. He can't form a special interest group to lobby Congress and have them pass a bill that will allow mages to keep their newborn children instead of having them confiscated by the Chantry. Maybe a lore buff can chime in and talk about the different seats of power? Is there anyone that can challenge the authority of the Divine in Val Royeaux?

Peace is all well and good, but in this case it only means that the status quo is maintained. Not good enough. Mages are still imprisoned, even if the Chantry could still be convinced to "relax" the rules a bit. They cannot marry, have children, wander at their will...I just can't agree with a system that puts people in jail because they MIGHT commit a crime.

As for the high number of blood mages/abominations in Kirkwall, it seems to be a result of some strange stuff under the city. The Kirkwall Circle is not really representative of Circles everywhere.

[Herr Uhl]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

normal people have changed the world countless times don't be naive.

Isn't a more pessimistic view of not being able to change things supposed to be cynical, not naive?

[Brimleydower]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

a better option would have been to blow up Meredith.

Yeah, this is the part that had me baffled.  Why not lure Meredith and the templars somewhere and fire his lazar there?  Or help evacuate the mages and blow up The Gallows?  Killing Elthina just seemed pointless.

[mesmerizedish]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

normal people have changed the world countless times don't be naive.

You're being naive. If a normal person achieves the power and influence to affect change, she's no longe "normal." Just look at Hawke. If, on the other hand, you mean "normal people" as a collective, again, you can't apply that standard to an individual.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I should point out that Justice was corrupted by Anders just as much as Anders was corrupted by Justice.

Justice lost his perspective, Anders lost his humanity.

I think Justice and Anders is simply commentary on humanity itself. A human being takes on an ideal, like justice, but that ideal is always perverted to that person's wants and needs. At the same time, justice can only exist in this world because of humans.

Anders knows there's no justice in what he did, but he's convinced himself that destroying the chantry is the only way for justice to be served.

If you listen to the conversations with Merrill, it's also commentary on humanity. Anders was taught that there are good spirits and bad spirits. Merrill says that Desire, Hunger, and Sloth aren't bad while Justice, Faith, and Valor aren't good; they're all just dangerous.

The spirits and demons you encounter in DA II aren't characters, they're allegories.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2011 - 02:20 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

normal people have changed the world countless times don't be naive.

Isn't a more pessimistic view of not being able to change things supposed to be cynical, not naive?

well said very true

[mesmerizedish]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

normal people have changed the world countless times don't be naive.

Isn't a more pessimistic view of not being able to change things supposed to be cynical, not naive?

Which also isn't what I said. Gamer Ftw seems to be having a hard time with me <_<

[Rinji the Bearded]

Brimleydower wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

a better option would have been to blow up Meredith.

Yeah, this is the part that had me baffled.  Why not lure Meredith and the templars somewhere and fire his lazar there?  Or help evacuate the mages and blow up The Gallows?  Killing Elthina just seemed pointless.

I'm sure Elthina would have congratulated the mages for vanquishing the evil villain that the Chantry was not so brave enough to vanquish itself!

... eh.  No.  Not to mention that Templars that supported Meredith would have taken revenge on every mage in sight at that point.

[Gamer Ftw]

not all at any person can affect change.

[mesmerizedish]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

not all at any person can affect change.

Yes, and when they do, they're no longer "any person." The reason that they can alter the opinions of "the people" is because they have power over the collective.

[Brimleydower]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Brimleydower wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

a better option would have been to blow up Meredith.

Yeah, this is the part that had me baffled.  Why not lure Meredith and the templars somewhere and fire his lazar there?  Or help evacuate the mages and blow up The Gallows?  Killing Elthina just seemed pointless.

I'm sure Elthina would have congratulated the mages for vanquishing the evil villain that the Chantry was not so brave enough to vanquish itself!

... eh.  No.  Not to mention that Templars that supported Meredith would have taken revenge on every mage in sight at that point.

You're missing the point entirely.  Anders said he blew up the Chantry to remove the possibility of compromise.  He wanted the conflict to happen.  All I'm saying is why not get rid of Meredith and a huge chunk of the templars instead?  That would give the Mages a fighting chance on top of guaranteeing the conflict.

[vengerturtle]

Brimleydower wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

a better option would have been to blow up Meredith.

Yeah, this is the part that had me baffled.  Why not lure Meredith and the templars somewhere and fire his lazar there?  Or help evacuate the mages and blow up The Gallows?  Killing Elthina just seemed pointless.

I thought so at first, too, but it was a Grand Cleric and a whole chantry, and that kind of thing is huge enough that you can't just sweep it under the rug, you know? If he'd killed a bunch of templars, or even Meredith, it would have just been another instance of "those dangerous mages need to be controlled, they kill templars all the time!" Nobody would have thought it was that odd, probably, just a bit bigger than what they're used to. But killing Elthina and blowing up the chantry? Religious buildings are supposed to be sacred (remember how everyone always goes to the chantry when their city is under attack?) and so are the grand clerics/sisters/brothers who serve in them. That is the kind of thing that's going to make people pay attention, that's going to shake them out of the status quo, because that kind of thing isn't supposed to happen. It can't be ignored. So people will be forced to really look at what's going on, what would drive someone to do something like that.

Also, if you listen to a lot of Anders's conversations in Act 3, he mentions Elthina a lot - I think he/Justice fixated on her, because she became a symbol for how people doing nothing was leading to mages suffering.

Modifié par missnicolec, 21 mars 2011 - 02:27 .

[Herr Uhl]

Brimleydower wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

a better option would have been to blow up Meredith.

Yeah, this is the part that had me baffled.  Why not lure Meredith and the templars somewhere and fire his lazar there?  Or help evacuate the mages and blow up The Gallows?  Killing Elthina just seemed pointless.

Blowing up a chantry is a more symbolic action than killing a few Templars. It is kind of like bombing the White House vs Fort Hood.

[Gamer Ftw]

true but I really wanted to blow up Meredith.

[mesmerizedish]

Brimleydower wrote...

You're missing the point entirely.  Anders said he blew up the Chantry to remove the possibility of compromise.  He wanted the conflict to happen.  All I'm saying is why not get rid of Meredith and a huge chunk of the templars instead?  That would give the Mages a fighting chance on top of guaranteeing the conflict.

Because Elthina represented the third way. Meredith was useful. She embodied the tyranny and corruption of the templars. It's possible that removing her wouldn't have started a war. Kirkwallers would have said "Ohai, she was a total ****, she probably deserved it." And then the Divine would have replaced her, and we'd go back to the staus quo. By destroying the Chantry, we have a terrorist act that demands retribution.

off-topic: I giggled at your signature. Are you a fellow Marylander?

[Nodscouter]

I too, support Anders in whatever he does. Blowing up the chantry only made me like him further.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Brimleydower wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Brimleydower wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

a better option would have been to blow up Meredith.

Yeah, this is the part that had me baffled.  Why not lure Meredith and the templars somewhere and fire his lazar there?  Or help evacuate the mages and blow up The Gallows?  Killing Elthina just seemed pointless.

I'm sure Elthina would have congratulated the mages for vanquishing the evil villain that the Chantry was not so brave enough to vanquish itself!

... eh.  No.  Not to mention that Templars that supported Meredith would have taken revenge on every mage in sight at that point.

You're missing the point entirely.  Anders said he blew up the Chantry to remove the possibility of compromise.  He wanted the conflict to happen.  All I'm saying is why not get rid of Meredith and a huge chunk of the templars instead?  That would give the Mages a fighting chance on top of guaranteeing the conflict.

Because Elthina would have ordered more Templars to come, and as that person stated above, most Templars would suddenly cracked down harder on the Mages.  The people would confide in her actions and the fight would be even more one-sided.  He took out the one person that was justifying Meredith's actions.

[Brimleydower]

missnicolec wrote...

Brimleydower wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

a better option would have been to blow up Meredith.

Yeah, this is the part that had me baffled.  Why not lure Meredith and the templars somewhere and fire his lazar there?  Or help evacuate the mages and blow up The Gallows?  Killing Elthina just seemed pointless.

I thought so at first, too, but it was a Grand Cleric and a whole chantry, and that kind of thing is huge enough that you can't just sweep it under the rug, you know? If he'd killed a bunch of templars, or even Meredith, it would have just been another instance of "those dangerous mages need to be controlled, they kill templars all the time!" Nobody would have thought it was that odd, probably, just a bit bigger than what they're used to. But killing Elthina and blowing up the chantry? Religious buildings are supposed to be sacred (remember how everyone always goes to the chantry when their city is under attack?) and so are the grand clerics/sisters/brothers who serve in them. That is the kind of thing that's going to make people pay attention, that's going to shake them out of the status quo, because that kind of thing isn't supposed to happen. It can't be ignored. So people will be forced to really look at what's going on, what would drive someone to do something like that.

Also, if you listen to a lot of Anders's conversations in Act 3, he mentions Elthina a lot - I think he/Justice fixated on her, because she became a symbol for how people doing nothing was leading to mages suffering.

That might satisfy the argument, if not for Leliana's appearance in the game and a confirmation of the fact that The Divine was considering attacking Kirkwall in response to all of the Blood Magic nonsense going on in the area.  I doubt a city being threatened with an Exalted March would be swept under the rug when the entire templar compound is razed to the ground.  I suppose I can just chalk it up to Anders being a poorly written moron.

[heman14]

I wasn't upset about it. My chin hit the floor when it happened though. Then the subsequent "Oh, F! Damage control time with my party!"

[Maria Caliban]

missnicolec wrote...

But killing Elthina and blowing up the chantry? Religious buildings are supposed to be sacred (remember how everyone always goes to the chantry when their city is under attack?) and so are the grand clerics/sisters/brothers who serve in them.

Indeed. If you click on Chanter Tabitha, one of her sayings is "And whomsoever attacks my house, has attacked the Maker himself."

[Brimleydower]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Brimleydower wrote...

You're missing the point entirely.  Anders said he blew up the Chantry to remove the possibility of compromise.  He wanted the conflict to happen.  All I'm saying is why not get rid of Meredith and a huge chunk of the templars instead?  That would give the Mages a fighting chance on top of guaranteeing the conflict.

Because Elthina represented the third way. Meredith was useful. She embodied the tyranny and corruption of the templars. It's possible that removing her wouldn't have started a war. Kirkwallers would have said "Ohai, she was a total ****, she probably deserved it." And then the Divine would have replaced her, and we'd go back to the staus quo. By destroying the Chantry, we have a terrorist act that demands retribution.

off-topic: I giggled at your signature. Are you a fellow Marylander?

Close, WVian.