709 réponses à ce sujet

[Saboteur-6]

Wow it's tough to keep track of this thread with so many poignant replies. Fact is, there's a fundamental flaw in the ideology that "Magic is a curse from the Maker" that has lead to the failed systemic construct of the Templars and the Circle. Until that single belief is changed AND accepted then the plight of Mages will continue and war will ensue.

@ihsmaeltheforsaken, Upsettingshorts, and GamerFTW: I agree and Ishmael's example of organized healing clinics would've further earned the support of the general public by illustrating that, while there's apparently Blood Mages hiding in every corner of Kirkwall, there are those that choose to resist and admonish the darker side of Magic. So when the inevitable Templar seeks to apprehend Mages that support non-violent reform, the PUBLIC bears witness. This would begin to shine a light on the flaws of the Templars and the Chantry.

What Anders has failed to realize is that his actions FURTHER CEMENT the flawed belief "Magic is a Curse, Mages need to be controlled" that has been institutionalized. You do not change acts of injustice and atrocity by becoming them. That's not Justice...that's Vengeance.

[Killjoy Cutter]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

nope It's very relevent you can't sit on the fence.
If you let things like this happen you are to blame for not speaking up.
This is the very reason so many injustices occur in the world.

You can absolutely sit on the fence if you don't have a responsibility to pick a side, which most civilians don't. It's naive to imagine that simply existing signs you up for the human rights bandwagon. Governments, people in positions of power, people with influence... these are entities with the responsibility to affect change. Joe Schmo doesn't.

In a democracy, at least, Joe Schmo does bear a share of the responsibility.  

[vengerturtle]

Brimleydower wrote...

That might satisfy the argument, if not for Leliana's appearance in the game and a confirmation of the fact that The Divine was considering attacking Kirkwall in response to all of the Blood Magic nonsense going on in the area.  I doubt a city being threatened with an Exalted March would be swept under the rug when the entire templar compound is razed to the ground.  I suppose I can just chalk it up to Anders being a poorly written moron.

That's true, but that's just it - it would have been an Exalted March that was fully supported by the chantry. Mages might have rebelled during or after it, yes, but people don't question their religious instituations, for the most part. If the Divine says Kirkwall needs to be cleansed, I doubt many people would have thought twice about it and would probably have supported it, even. Mages can't fight an entire religious instituation on their own, that's part of the problem. There needs to be reform happening within the system itself so that mages aren't oppressed, but that will never happen unless the "common man" also decides that how mages are treated is wrong and supports them. The chantry won't change unless they're forced to, and the thing that would force them to change is an outcry from the people, not the mages themselves. If they don't get that support, it will be just another mage v templar war, and I bet a lot of people would support the templars just beause that's the status quo and they're afraid of mages anyway. There's a bigger picture that I think Anders was taking into account when he did what he did.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Vech24 wrote...

Wow it's tough to keep track of this thread with so many poignant replies. Fact is, there's a fundamental flaw in the ideology that "Magic is a curse from the Maker" that has lead to the failed systemic construct of the Templars and the Circle. Until that single belief is changed AND accepted then the plight of Mages will continue and war will ensue.

@ihsmaeltheforsaken, Upsettingshorts, and GamerFTW: I agree and Ishmael's example of organized healing clinics would've further earned the support of the general public by illustrating that, while there's apparently Blood Mages hiding in every corner of Kirkwall, there are those that choose to resist and admonish the darker side of Magic. So when the inevitable Templar seeks to apprehend Mages that support non-violent reform, the PUBLIC bears witness. This would begin to shine a light on the flaws of the Templars and the Chantry.

What Anders has failed to realize is that his actions FURTHER CEMENT the flawed belief "Magic is a Curse, Mages need to be controlled" that has been institutionalized. You do not change acts of injustice and atrocity by becoming them. That's not Justice...that's Vengeance.

But he did spark the Circles to stand up.  And the Seekers such as Cassandra and allegedly Leliana are trying to find a way to stop the war -- at what terms, I guess we'll see in the future.   Cassandra was not on the LET'S KILL ALL MAGES bandwagon for sure.

[mesmerizedish]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

In a democracy, at least, Joe Schmo does bear a share of the responsibility.

Only if he chooses to shoulder it. And there isn't a single democracy in all of Thedas.

[Herr Uhl]

Brimleydower wrote...

That might satisfy the argument, if not for Leliana's appearance in the game and a confirmation of the fact that The Divine was considering attacking Kirkwall in response to all of the Blood Magic nonsense going on in the area.  I doubt a city being threatened with an Exalted March would be swept under the rug when the entire templar compound is razed to the ground.  I suppose I can just chalk it up to Anders being a poorly written moron.

It isn't so that the Divine would notice. What do you think would travel fastest and farthest amongst people? That a mage blew up a few templars (something fairly commonplace, and let's face it, it is part of their job) or that a mage blew up a chantry, killing the Grand Cleric in the process? For further inane comparizons, it is the difference between killing a cop and a politician.

[Brimleydower]

missnicolec wrote...

Brimleydower wrote...

That might satisfy the argument, if not for Leliana's appearance in the game and a confirmation of the fact that The Divine was considering attacking Kirkwall in response to all of the Blood Magic nonsense going on in the area.  I doubt a city being threatened with an Exalted March would be swept under the rug when the entire templar compound is razed to the ground.  I suppose I can just chalk it up to Anders being a poorly written moron.

That's true, but that's just it - it would have been an Exalted March that was fully supported by the chantry. Mages might have rebelled during or after it, yes, but people don't question their religious instituations, for the most part. If the Divine says Kirkwall needs to be cleansed, I doubt many people would have thought twice about it and would probably have supported it, even. Mages can't fight an entire religious instituation on their own, that's part of the problem. There needs to be reform happening within the system itself so that mages aren't oppressed, but that will never happen unless the "common man" also decides that how mages are treated is wrong and supports them. The chantry won't change unless they're forced to, and the thing that would force them to change is an outcry from the people, not the mages themselves. If they don't get that support, it will be just another mage v templar war, and I bet a lot of people would support the templars just beause that's the status quo and they're afraid of mages anyway. There's a bigger picture that I think Anders was taking into account when he did what he did.

I fully understand the point you're making, I just don't think it really applies to this situation.  Even if you took Anders out of the equation, Kirkwall was likely facing an Exalted March.  Sebastian was begging Elthina to leave Kirkwall for this very reason, but she refused to leave.  Even in the epilogue, there's no rallying outcry from the public for better mage treatment -- it's just a bunch of Circles deciding that they can overthrow their templar jailors.  I think the quote used directly from the game is "set the world on fire."  While there is some merit to the notion of the world needing to change its views rather than the templars and mages, I think a huge underlying theme in the game is that the complacency of the mages, allowing themselves to be directed about like sheep, is what needed to change.  The events in Kirkwall emboldened the other Circles of the world, inspiring them to rise up and overthrow. 

[Brimleydower]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Brimleydower wrote...

That might satisfy the argument, if not for Leliana's appearance in the game and a confirmation of the fact that The Divine was considering attacking Kirkwall in response to all of the Blood Magic nonsense going on in the area.  I doubt a city being threatened with an Exalted March would be swept under the rug when the entire templar compound is razed to the ground.  I suppose I can just chalk it up to Anders being a poorly written moron.

It isn't so that the Divine would notice. What do you think would travel fastest and farthest amongst people? That a mage blew up a few templars (something fairly commonplace, and let's face it, it is part of their job) or that a mage blew up a chantry, killing the Grand Cleric in the process? For further inane comparizons, it is the difference between killing a cop and a politician.

My point is that she is considering destroying an ENTIRE CITY because of the reports of corruption coming back from Kirkwall.  What do you think would be her response when the Mages destroy the entire templar order, including the Circle?

[MJRick]

I'm only upset he didn't throw on a Guy Fawkes mask first.

[Saboteur-6]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Vech24 wrote...

Wow it's tough to keep track of this thread with so many poignant replies. Fact is, there's a fundamental flaw in the ideology that "Magic is a curse from the Maker" that has lead to the failed systemic construct of the Templars and the Circle. Until that single belief is changed AND accepted then the plight of Mages will continue and war will ensue.

@ihsmaeltheforsaken, Upsettingshorts, and GamerFTW: I agree and Ishmael's example of organized healing clinics would've further earned the support of the general public by illustrating that, while there's apparently Blood Mages hiding in every corner of Kirkwall, there are those that choose to resist and admonish the darker side of Magic. So when the inevitable Templar seeks to apprehend Mages that support non-violent reform, the PUBLIC bears witness. This would begin to shine a light on the flaws of the Templars and the Chantry.

What Anders has failed to realize is that his actions FURTHER CEMENT the flawed belief "Magic is a Curse, Mages need to be controlled" that has been institutionalized. You do not change acts of injustice and atrocity by becoming them. That's not Justice...that's Vengeance.

But he did spark the Circles to stand up.  And the Seekers such as Cassandra and allegedly Leliana are trying to find a way to stop the war -- at what terms, I guess we'll see in the future.   Cassandra was not on the LET'S KILL ALL MAGES bandwagon for sure.

Right. A lot of this eventually becomes theorycraft since we're talking about a work of fiction whose upcoming plot has yet to have been established.  My point is that Even if Anders did prompt the Circle to begin rebelling and FORCE systemic change within the Chantry through bloodshed, his actions can't FORCE a change to the ideology that dehumanizes Mages. If anything, he's only further proven the Chantry correct.

[vengerturtle]

Brimleydower wrote...

I fully understand the point you're making, I just don't think it really applies to this situation.  Even if you took Anders out of the equation, Kirkwall was likely facing an Exalted March.  Sebastian was begging Elthina to leave Kirkwall for this very reason, but she refused to leave.  Even in the epilogue, there's no rallying outcry from the public for better mage treatment -- it's just a bunch of Circles deciding that they can overthrow their templar jailors.  I think the quote used directly from the game is "set the world on fire."  While there is some merit to the notion of the world needing to change its views rather than the templars and mages, I think a huge underlying theme in the game is that the complacency of the mages, allowing themselves to be directed about like sheep, is what needed to change.  The events in Kirkwall emboldened the other Circles of the world, inspiring them to rise up and overthrow. 

Hmm I think I see what you're saying, I never thought of it from that view before. And Varric does say, for one of the epilogues (or maybe both), that it showed the mages that templars could be defied. Maybe he wanted to kill two birds with one stone, and also get people's attention in the hopes they would support the mages if they just saw horribly they were being treated in Kirkwall. Or maybe he really did have a grudge against Elthina!

[Killjoy Cutter]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

In a democracy, at least, Joe Schmo does bear a share of the responsibility.

Only if he chooses to shoulder it. And there isn't a single democracy in all of Thedas.

A bad government in a democracy is the fault of all the people who voted for it, and all the people who could vote but did not.   They all share in the blame, including little old Joe Schmo. 

Even in a place like Thedas, however, every individual still shares the responsibility for what they take part in.  Every mage who turns to immoral behavior*, every Templar who assists in Tranquilizing an innocent mage, every citizen who acts on an ignorant prejudice one way or the other, bears responsibility.  And "I was just following orders" and "It's the law, we have to follow it." are not defenses, just poor excuses.


* Blood magic is a seperate question, despite what the people in the setting believe, as we can plainly see characters who use blood magic and yet are in no way corrupted by it. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 21 mars 2011 - 03:02 .

[mesmerizedish]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

A bad government in a democracy is the fault of all the people who voted for it, and all the people who could vote but did not.   They all share in the blame, including little old Joe Schmo.

"The people" as a collective, yes. But not as individuals. The citizen who voted for Hitler isn't going to be tried for the atrocities committed by the National Socialist (since **** is censored, wtf?) goverment.


[EDIT] "I was just following orders" is, of course, bull****, because you still acted. Every templar who ran into the Gallows hacking down mages who were just trying to defend themselves is guilty of war crimes. But the Kirkwallers who sat around going about their lives and not participating in the conflict aren't.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 03:04 .

[Brimleydower]

missnicolec wrote...

Hmm I think I see what you're saying, I never thought of it from that view before. And Varric does say, for one of the epilogues (or maybe both), that it showed the mages that templars could be defied. Maybe he wanted to kill two birds with one stone, and also get people's attention in the hopes they would support the mages if they just saw horribly they were being treated in Kirkwall. Or maybe he really did have a grudge against Elthina!

I'm not saying blowing up The Chantry was not a means to the same ends, by any means, so I'm not even implying you're wrong.  I'm just saying Anders is a douchebag for killing a nice old lady.  The only other solution I've come up with is that maybe something underneath the city is what allowed Anders to even summon the red blasts of old-lady-nuking-doom, perhaps related to all those "Band of Three" codex entries laying around throughout the game.  That would prevent him from acting against The Gallows, I suppose, but that's just speculation without any real evidence to back it up.

[Saboteur-6]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


* Blood magic is a seperate question, despite what the people in the setting believe, as we can plainly see characters who use blood magic and yet are in no way corrupted by it. 

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a magical practice to avoid Demon possession or other sinister uses of magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account for in the context of a video game.

[Addai]

Vech24 wrote...
Right. A lot of this eventually becomes theorycraft since we're talking about a work of fiction whose upcoming plot has yet to have been established.  My point is that Even if Anders did prompt the Circle to begin rebelling and FORCE systemic change within the Chantry through bloodshed, his actions can't FORCE a change to the ideology that dehumanizes Mages. If anything, he's only further proven the Chantry correct.

Exactly.  He's set his own cause back.  But then extremists tend to do that, polarize people.  Who is going to be siding with the mages?  The only way it can work is if the Imperium gets involved.  Meanwhile the Qunari are probably rubbing their claws with glee (if they had any glee) to mop up whatever's left over.  We'll see how Anders likes the treatment of mages under the Qun.

[Gamer Ftw]

I don't think he set his cause back at all the thedas world needed change It would have happened sooner or later anders or not.
and who is to say some saarebas won't rebel and join in?

[mesmerizedish]

Vech24 wrote...

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a magical practice to avoid Demon possession or other sinister uses of magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account for in the context of a video game.

No, blood magic is just magic, like any other. It can be used for ill gains, such as controlling other people's minds, and it has an ostensibly greater rate of traffic with demons, but as with anything, it's how you use it that determines its risks.

[Brimleydower]

Addai67 wrote...

Vech24 wrote...
Right. A lot of this eventually becomes theorycraft since we're talking about a work of fiction whose upcoming plot has yet to have been established.  My point is that Even if Anders did prompt the Circle to begin rebelling and FORCE systemic change within the Chantry through bloodshed, his actions can't FORCE a change to the ideology that dehumanizes Mages. If anything, he's only further proven the Chantry correct.

Exactly.  He's set his own cause back.  But then extremists tend to do that, polarize people.  Who is going to be siding with the mages?  The only way it can work is if the Imperium gets involved.  Meanwhile the Qunari are probably rubbing their claws with glee (if they had any glee) to mop up whatever's left over.  We'll see how Anders likes the treatment of mages under the Qun.

There's a lot of truth in that.  I'm sure that will be taking center stage in the event of DA3 being released -- The Qunari taking advantage of the southern country's instabilities and attempting another invasion.  Of course, it will be up to our new hero to convince the mages, templars, chantry, and whoever else to set their differences aside to stand against the Qunari threat united.  Sprinkle in some Flemeth and Morrigan Old-God-Baby-Sauce and you've got a game.  Hopefully a game without a weak dialogue wheel.

[Brimleydower]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I don't think he set his cause back at all the thedas world needed change It would have happened sooner or later anders or not.
and who is to say some saarebas won't rebel and join in?

Saarebas are of the Qun.  I wouldn't count on any sort of rebellion there, at least not on the scale of The Circles of Magi.

[Herr Uhl]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I don't think he set his cause back at all the thedas world needed change It would have happened sooner or later anders or not.
and who is to say some saarebas won't rebel and join in?

Yes, they get so inspired by the human mage that blew up a temple to a guy in the sky that they started rebelling all of a sudden.

[Gamer Ftw]

They are at the moment but they could see a change for freedom and become Tal Vashoth.
No they may get inspired by all the circles rising up and fighting for freedom though.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 21 mars 2011 - 03:19 .

[mesmerizedish]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

They are at the moment but they could see a change for freedom and become Tal Vashoth.
No they may get inspired by all the circles rising up and fighting for freedom though.

That kind of thinking comes from an ignorance of how the Qunari function as a people. I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen, because obviously there are some Tal-Vashoth. But as a group, the "chance for freedom" is meaningless, because they are of the Qun, and that's the alpha and omega.

[Brimleydower]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

They are at the moment but they could see a change for freedom and become Tal Vashoth.
No they may get inspired by all the circles rising up and fighting for freedom though.

That seems unlikely, given what has been shown thus far by the Qunari.  I'm not saying some of them wouldn't, it's just that they don't appear to entertain the same notions of freedom as the rest of the races, as evidenced by Ketojan.

[Gamer Ftw]

if that were true there would be no Tal Vashoth at all.