709 réponses à ce sujet

[Brimleydower]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

if that were true there would be no Tal Vashoth at all.

I'm not sure who that is directed at, but both of us pretty much said that there would be some deserting going on.  I'll also point out that Tal Vashoth are not "rebeling" against the Qunari, they're just abandoning the Qun.  The Circle is a response to oppression; an uprising to change the way the world views mages.  The Tal Vashoth are more like deserters.

[Saboteur-6]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Vech24 wrote...

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a magical practice to avoid Demon possession or other sinister uses of magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account for in the context of a video game.

No, blood magic is just magic, like any other. It can be used for ill gains, such as controlling other people's minds, and it has an ostensibly greater rate of traffic with demons, but as with anything, it's how you use it that determines its risks.

Incorrect. Blood Magic canonically was first taught by Demons and therefore is an aberration of "pure" magic from the Fade. While you could argue that it's theoretically possible to "master" the dark nature of Blood Magic (mostly because the game canon is loose), I think the game establishes Blood Magic as too dark a path to walk without becoming twisted by Demons.

[termokanden]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Vech24 wrote...

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a magical practice to avoid Demon possession or other sinister uses of magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account for in the context of a video game.

No, blood magic is just magic, like any other. It can be used for ill gains, such as controlling other people's minds, and it has an ostensibly greater rate of traffic with demons, but as with anything, it's how you use it that determines its risks.

Do you see one example in the game where blood magic does not involve some kind of disaster, evil or demons (apart from the main character)? If so, I must have missed that part.

I wanted them to treat blood magic like you say by having at least one or more examples where it doesn't go horribly wrong because it was 100% evil in DAO. But it seems yet again in DA2 it's just more evil and demons.

As for what Anders did. The Chantry is a symbol of oppression, more so in Kirkwall than any place we saw in DAO. It's clear that ignoring them won't make the problem go away. Anders may have overreacted, but it's still better than just letting the oppression continue.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vech24 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


* Blood magic is a seperate question, despite what the people in the setting believe, as we can plainly see characters who use blood magic and yet are in no way corrupted by it. 

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a magical practice to avoid Demon possession or other sinister uses of magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account for in the context of a video game.

You can give Wynne, Morrigan, and Anders blood magic in DA:O/A, and none of them turn into monsters.  Merrill isn't wicked or a monster.  In fact, Anders specifically turns himself into an abomination of sorts without any blood magic at all. 

While the NPC mage trapped in the keep in the DA:O DLC (names are escaping me right now) is a human monster, he would have been a human monster without a drop of blood magic, and he's still human, not an abomination.    

What we can actually observe of the world does not support the claim that blood magic is inherently evil or corrupting. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 21 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[Vhalkyrie]

I'm glad I romanced Anders on my first playthrough.  I started off pro-Anders because I loved him in Awakenings and wished I could have romanced him then.  So I was excited for the romance in DA2.  I had a feeling he was going to do something bad, but I didn't know he was going to go nuclear!  I was completely stunned by what happened in Act 3.  As I was looking at my dialog options, I contemplated dumping him right there.  I actually walked away from my computer and though about it.  I was playing a mage character, so I decided to play it all the way through as a vigilante with Anders.

But now that I've done that, I can't bring myself to romance him again in my next playthroughs.  I find myself agreeing with Fenris.  Knowing what he did, I find Fenris to be less crazy, and it is easier to support his views.  Damn Anders for making me side with Meredith, for at least a little while!  I executed Anders on my second playthrough, but on my third, I'm going to tell him to get out of my sight.  At least I will have all three options available for DA2:2 or DA3.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 21 mars 2011 - 03:46 .

[termokanden]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You can give Wynne, Morrigan, and Anders blood magic in DA:O/A, and none of them turn into monsters.  While the NPC mage trapped in the keep (names are escaping me right now) is a human monster, he would have been a human monster without a drop of blood magic.   Merrill isn't wicked or a monster. 

 
Just pure mechanics. It's obvious that Wynne would never become a blood mage. Anders is also very much opposed to blood magic. So you can't really use that as an argument.

Merrill is more interesting. She's not really evil, and yet her blood magic causes nothing but disaster. She doesn't fully realize what she's doing.

What we can actually observe of the world does not support the claim that blood magic is inherently evil or corrupting. 

They let us give anyone any specialization in DAO. They didn't actually WRITE anything about it. It doesn't fit into the story in any way. And apart from that, blood magic is all about evil, demons and personal power. I may have missed an example where it isn't. Please tell me if I did

Modifié par termokanden, 21 mars 2011 - 03:38 .

[mesmerizedish]

Vech24 wrote...

Incorrect. Blood Magic canonically was first taught by Demons and therefore is an aberration of "pure" magic from the Fade. While you could argue that it's theoretically possible to "master" the dark nature of Blood Magic (mostly because the game canon is loose), I think the game establishes Blood Magic as too dark a path to walk without becoming twisted by Demons.

What you said was that blood magic leads to possession, always and forever. That's categorically untrue. Whether it always invloves demons (which I don't think it does, but it might) is irrelevant, because that's not what you said. A blood mage PC doesn't get possessed, Merrill doesn't get possessed, most of the blood mages you fight as enemies don't get possessed.

[Brimleydower]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You can give Wynne, Morrigan, and Anders blood magic in DA:O/A, and none of them turn into monsters.  Merrill isn't wicked or a monster.

While the NPC mage trapped in the keep in the DA:O DLC (names are escaping me right now) is a human monster, he would have been a human monster without a drop of blood magic, and he's still human, not an abomination.    

What we can actually observe of the world does not support the claim that blood magic is inherently evil or corrupting. 

Merrill isn't wicked or a monster, but she has dealings with demons.  She is tricked by the Pride Demon into reconstructing the eluvian to allow it to escape its imprisonment.

Avernus summoned hordes of demons to such an extent that he caused a tear in the Fade to appear permanently.  He also experimented on living Grey Wardens to tap into hidden powers of the blood.

While I cannot pull the source on the spot, what someone mentioned before it true: blood magic originated from demons.  While I personally believe it is possible for a Mage to use blood magic without succumbing to some soul-poisoning corruption, I think these are cases of exceptionally strong-willed and powerful Mages, and exceptions to the rule.

[mesmerizedish]

termokanden wrote...

Merrill is more interesting. She's not really evil, and yet her blood magic causes nothing but disaster. She doesn't fully realize what she's doing.

That's completely false. Merrill knew exactly what she was doing, and the only disasters were caused not by Merrill or her use of blood magic, but by other people's decisions.

Also (not condemning, just curious), how did Anders lead to this topic?

[Gamer Ftw]

Ishmael who the heck is morningbird?

[mesmerizedish]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Ishmael who the heck is morningbird?

MY ONE TRUE LOVE YOU SHUT UP AND DON'T JUDGE.

[Saboteur-6]

[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...

[quote]Vech24 wrote...

[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...


* Blood magic is a seperate question, despite what the people in the setting believe, as we can plainly see characters who use blood magic and yet are in no way corrupted by it. 
[/quote]

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a magical practice to avoid Demon possession or other sinister uses of magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account for in the context of a video game.

[/quote]

You can give Wynne, Morrigan, and Anders blood magic in DA:O/A, and none of them turn into monsters.  Merrill isn't wicked or a monster.

While the NPC mage trapped in the keep (names are escaping me right now) is a human monster, he would have been a human monster without a drop of blood magic, and he's still human, not an abomination.    

What we can actually observe of the world does not support the claim that blood magic is inherently evil or corrupting. 
[/quote]

Again the fact that Wynne, Morrigan, Anders, and the Warden/Hawke can use Blood Magic without plot-related consequences is a DIRECT result of the limitation of the medium. Or in other words, it's a video game.

[/quote]
What we can actually observe of the world does not support the claim that blood magic is inherently evil or corrupting. 
[/quote]

Except for every single Blood Mage we encounter is usually hanging out playing Texas Hold'em with Shades, Undead, and Demons. Seriously show me one Blood Magic user that's CANONICALLY recognized in the story as a Blood Mage (and not just choosing a specialization as a game mechanic) that isn't up to evil and being controled by a Demon.

Merril...the closest example...was in fact being manipulated by a Pride Demon all along.

[termokanden]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

A blood mage PC doesn't get possessed, Merrill doesn't get possessed, most of the blood mages you fight as enemies don't get possessed.

But you can argue that it's just because the story would have been so vastly different if Hawke got possessed that it wouldn't fit in. Merrill doesn't get possessed, and guess why! Because someone steps in and saves her, getting possessed and killed in the process. I don't think Merrill is a good example of blood magic done right.

I think from what I've seen in the game that blood magic IS inherently evil, but that it can be controlled to some degree. I wish it they gave us some small bit of story about blood magic not always being evil, but there's just nothing to support that.

Modifié par termokanden, 21 mars 2011 - 03:50 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Lol not judging just curious if it was some game character somewhere.

[Killjoy Cutter]

termokanden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You can give Wynne, Morrigan, and Anders blood magic in DA:O/A, and none of them turn into monsters.  While the NPC mage trapped in the keep (names are escaping me right now) is a human monster, he would have been a human monster without a drop of blood magic.   Merrill isn't wicked or a monster. 

 
Just pure mechanics. It's obvious that Wynne would never become a blood mage. Anders is also very much opposed to blood magic. So you can't really use that as an argument.

Merrill is more interesting. She's not really evil, and yet her blood magic causes nothing but disaster. She doesn't fully realize what she's doing.

What we can actually observe of the world does not support the claim that blood magic is inherently evil or corrupting. 

They let us give anyone any specialization in DAO. They didn't actually WRITE anything about it. It doesn't fit into the story in any way. And apart from that, blood magic is all about evil, demons and personal power.

No, it's about a source of power, just like any other source of magic power. 

The people it attracts tend to be weak, lazy, desperate, driven, greedy, and/or morally compromised before they learn a single drop of blood magic.  Their flaws are the issue, and the nature of blood magic gives outlet to those flaws. 


It comes down to the fact that reliance on the evidence at hand to examine the truth is preferable to reliance on what we are simply told is true.  Despite what we are told about blood magic by those within the game, the evidence at hand does not support their claims. 

Additionally, too many people confuse what we are told from the perspectives of those within the setting, with objectively stated facts about the setting.  For example, I am almost certain that the story of blood magic coming only from being taught by demons is subjective in-character lore, not objective out-of-character lore. 

[termokanden]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Merrill is more interesting. She's not really evil, and yet her blood magic causes nothing but disaster. She doesn't fully realize what she's doing.

That's completely false. Merrill knew exactly what she was doing, and the only disasters were caused not by Merrill or her use of blood magic, but by other people's decisions.

That's not the impression I got from the game. She keeps thinking "oh, you just make a deal with a demon and everything works out for the best". When you see her dealing with a demon in Night Terrors, she attacks you pretty much immediately. Clearly she doesn't have the ability to control her dealings with demons. The keeper realizes this and steps in.

That's what I mean when I said she doesn't realize what she's doing. She knows she is dealing with demons. But that doesn't mean she can control it.

It comes down to the fact that reliance on the evidence at hand to examine the truth is preferable to reliance on what we are simply told is true.  Despite what we are told about blood magic by those within the game, the evidence at hand does not support their claims. 

You see blood magic being used for evil over and over again in the game. We have other cases only where there is no writing to support it. Yeah Hawke can become a blood mage. Does the story even mention this?

Modifié par termokanden, 21 mars 2011 - 03:54 .

[Sarielle]

Vech24 wrote...


Except for every single Blood Mage we encounter is usually hanging out playing Texas Hold'em with Shades, Undead, and Demons. Seriously show me one Blood Magic user that's CANONICALLY recognized in the story as a Blood Mage (and not just choosing a specialization as a game mechanic) that isn't up to evil and being controled by a Demon.

Merril...the closest example...was in fact being manipulated by a Pride Demon all along.

Eeeeeh....that mage who is suspected of being the Lily Killer. Dupuis I think his name was? He uses blood magic (and does summon shades) but is not, in fact, being controlled by a demon.

Modifié par Sarielle, 21 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[Saboteur-6]

[quote]ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

[quote]Vech24 wrote...

Incorrect. Blood Magic canonically was first taught by Demons and therefore is an aberration of "pure" magic from the Fade. While you could argue that it's theoretically possible to "master" the dark nature of Blood Magic (mostly because the game canon is loose), I think the game establishes Blood Magic as too dark a path to walk without becoming twisted by Demons.[/quote]

What you said was that blood magic leads to possession, always and forever. That's categorically untrue. Whether it always invloves demons (which I don't think it does, but it might) is irrelevant, because that's not what you said. A blood mage PC doesn't get possessed, Merrill doesn't get possessed, most of the blood mages you fight as enemies don't get possessed.

[/quote]

Except what I REALLY said minus you're embelishment is that:

[/quote]

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a
magical practice to avoid Demon possession OR other sinister uses of
magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant
plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account
for in the context of a video game. Blood Magic is connected to Demons...Demons are bad. I don't see the confusion.

[mesmerizedish]

termokanden wrote...

That's not the impression I got from the game. She keeps thinking "oh, you just make a deal with a demon and everything works out for the best". When you see her dealing with a demon in Night Terrors, she attacks you pretty much immediately. Clearly she doesn't have the ability to control her dealings with demons. The keeper realizes this and steps in.

That's what I mean when I said she doesn't realize what she's doing. She knows she is dealing with demons. But that doesn't mean she can control it.

She's not infallible. That doesn't make her an idiot, either. She's not so naive as to think that everything just turns out okay. She knows there are risks, and she chooses to accept them. She doesn't endanger anyone else by her actions (like the Keeper does). She even brings the PC along to make sure the demon dies if it possesses her. The Keeper was the only one who acted irresponsibly.

[mesmerizedish]

Vech24 wrote...

I think Blood Magic is cannoically established as being too dark a magical practice to avoid Demon possession OR other sinister uses of magic. The only reason your player character doesn't have significant plot-related side effects is because it's just too difficult to account for in the context of a video game. Blood Magic is connected to Demons...Demons are bad. I don't see the confusion

The sentence featuring the bolded portion can't be effectively understood. I'm not saying "ur gramer sux get out," but it doesn't make grammatical sense. I went with my best interpretation of your intent.

Demons aren't bad, not according the Dalish. The Chantry seperates Fade entities into spirits and demons, good and bad. The Dalish see spirits as being all dangerous. There's no inherent difference between Justice and Desire.

You can say "Oh, well, they're wrong, the Chantry's right," but that's just your own unprovable belief.

[Maria Caliban]

Brimleydower wrote...
She is tricked by the Pride Demon into reconstructing the eluvian to allow it to escape its imprisonment.

I don't think there's anything to support this claim.

Especially as the Pride Demon is trapped in Sundermount. Merrill would have had to gather the pieces of the Eluvian while she was in Ferelden and carry them with her to the Free Marches. She obviously wanted to reconstruct it long before she met the demon.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Ishmael who the heck is morningbird?

MY ONE TRUE LOVE YOU SHUT UP AND DON'T JUDGE.

*wonders if she should be jealous*

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[Saboteur-6]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You can give Wynne, Morrigan, and Anders blood magic in DA:O/A, and none of them turn into monsters.  While the NPC mage trapped in the keep (names are escaping me right now) is a human monster, he would have been a human monster without a drop of blood magic.   Merrill isn't wicked or a monster. 

 
Just pure mechanics. It's obvious that Wynne would never become a blood mage. Anders is also very much opposed to blood magic. So you can't really use that as an argument.

Merrill is more interesting. She's not really evil, and yet her blood magic causes nothing but disaster. She doesn't fully realize what she's doing.

What we can actually observe of the world does not support the claim that blood magic is inherently evil or corrupting. 

They let us give anyone any specialization in DAO. They didn't actually WRITE anything about it. It doesn't fit into the story in any way. And apart from that, blood magic is all about evil, demons and personal power.

No, it's about a source of power, just like any other source of magic power. 

The people it attracts tend to be weak, lazy, desperate, driven, greedy, and/or morally compromised before they learn a single drop of blood magic.  Their flaws are the issue, and the nature of blood magic gives outlet to those flaws. 


It comes down to the fact that reliance on the evidence at hand to examine the truth is preferable to reliance on what we are simply told is true.  Despite what we are told about blood magic by those within the game, the evidence at hand does not support their claims. 

Additionally, too many people confuse what we are told from the perspectives of those within the setting, with objectively stated facts about the setting.  For example, I am almost certain that the story of blood magic coming only from being taught by demons is subjective in-character lore, not objective out-of-character lore. 

That's just picking and choosing what you're accepting as canon then DESPITE various in-game references of Blood Magic being "the dark side". Might as well dismiss that magic is drawn from the Fade while you're at it.

[termokanden]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

termokanden wrote...

That's not the impression I got from the game. She keeps thinking "oh, you just make a deal with a demon and everything works out for the best". When you see her dealing with a demon in Night Terrors, she attacks you pretty much immediately. Clearly she doesn't have the ability to control her dealings with demons. The keeper realizes this and steps in.

That's what I mean when I said she doesn't realize what she's doing. She knows she is dealing with demons. But that doesn't mean she can control it.

She's not infallible. That doesn't make her an idiot, either. She's not so naive as to think that everything just turns out okay. She knows there are risks, and she chooses to accept them. She doesn't endanger anyone else by her actions (like the Keeper does). She even brings the PC along to make sure the demon dies if it possesses her. The Keeper was the only one who acted irresponsibly.

At the risk of derailing the thread even further. She wasn't able to deal with the demon in Night Terrors. She seems terribly naive throughout the game. We don't see what would have happened if the keeper hadn't stepped in, but I'm far from convinced she would have just handled it. Even if she could, the fact still remains that her blood magic involves dealings with demons. Weren't we discussing if it was possible to be a blood mage while avoiding such things?

[mesmerizedish]

Vech24 wrote...

That's just picking and choosing what you're accepting as canon then DESPITE various in-game references of Blood Magic being "the dark side". Might as well dismiss that magic is drawn from the Fade while you're at it.

Blood magic is perceived as the "dark side" by the Andrastean Chantry. The view on it in Tevinter is different, the view on it by the Dalish is different. Your mistake is in accepting what the Chantry says as canon.

termokanden wrote...

At the risk of derailing the thread
even further. She wasn't able to deal with the demon in Night Terrors.
She seems terribly naive throughout the game. We don't see what would
have happened if the keeper hadn't stepped in, but I'm far from
convinced she would have just handled it. Even if she could, the fact
still remains that her blood magic involves dealings with demons.
Weren't we discussing if it was possible to be a blood mage while
avoiding such things?

No one except Sebastian and Anders is able to deal with the demon in Night Terros. Her dealings with humans are naive. Her dealings with demons aren't. What we (I?) were discussing is if it was possible to be a blood mage without becoming an abomination.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 04:01 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Merrill is more interesting. She's not really evil, and yet her blood magic causes nothing but disaster. She doesn't fully realize what she's doing.

That's completely false. Merrill knew exactly what she was doing, and the only disasters were caused not by Merrill or her use of blood magic, but by other people's decisions.

Also (not condemning, just curious), how did Anders lead to this topic?

Exactly -- everything that goes wrong around Merrill is because of how other people react.  We only have the Keeper's word that the demon was going to be able to betray and kill or possess Merrill. 

As for Anders, I brought him up as a character in the game who could learn blood magic without being corrupted or turned evil or showing any other sign of  the "inherent evil" of blood magic.