49 réponses à ce sujet

[Ace Attorney]

After rereading all posts, I was thinking of one of these:
http://biowarefans.c...0H1aVrwfP0t1QuS
Using bare minimum DW for Staggered target abuse.

http://biowarefans.c...fP0t1QuS0jILTpA
Just the Unforgiving Chain for DW, diving in Sabotage instead.

[Dead End FRS]

But by using precision you will loose 10% attack speed and 10% shorter cooldowns from Speed. Don't get me wrong, I am well aware that Shadow offers more dps. I'm simply not convinced, that this small amount really outweights the bonus that Duelist grants you, especially against enemy mages vendetta is basically a must have in my book

[Ganen]

Dead End FRS wrote...

But by using precision you will loose 10% attack speed and 10% shorter cooldowns from Speed. Don't get me wrong, I am well aware that Shadow offers more dps. I'm simply not convinced, that this small amount really outweights the bonus that Duelist grants you, especially against enemy mages vendetta is basically a must have in my book

you sthink a 20% increase in all your dps a "small amount" ?
-.-

and again duelist gives you no increase at all... as you are caped either way, and if you dont want to use precision for speed, just slap in more +attack gear.

also all defence duelist gives you <<<<<<<<<<<<<< decoy alone for survival.

Modifié par Ganen, 23 mars 2011 - 05:11 .

[cloudblade70]

Crit damage caps out at 300%? Interesting...

[Dead End FRS]

30% additional critical damage bonus on an existing 370% is only a 8% increase in total. The spare agility increases the dps by roughly 4%. Speed on the other hand grants you about 8% additional damage output (factoring in a 33% haste uptime). Getting attack with items isn't really an option, since non of the endgame items grant enough attack to really make a difference and you loose either crit damage (which is bad) or physical damage (which is way worse) in the process.

Decoy might me an nice tool, but I don't see my rogue dying unless I do something stupid. The only real threat I encountered in late game were hard to reach mages, which vendetta takes exellent care of.

Edit: The total damage is 370% of course, making it a 8% increase.

Modifié par Dead End FRS, 23 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[Ganen]

Dead End FRS wrote...

30% additional critical damage bonus on an existing 270% is only a 11% increase in total. The spare agility increases the dps by roughly 4%. Speed on the other hand grants you about 8% additional damage output (factoring in a 33% haste uptime). Getting attack with items isn't really an option, since non of the endgame items grant enough attack to really make a difference and you loose either crit damage (which is bad) or physical damage (which is way worse) in the process.

Decoy might me an nice tool, but I don't see my rogue dying unless I do something stupid. The only real threat I encountered in late game were hard to reach mages, which vendetta takes exellent care of.

your math is bad

a few questions to clear this up:
-what dificulty do you play in?
cuz you do get kiled alot in hard and nightmare, without doing anything stupid, liutenants for exemple can issue attack orders on you, archers and rogues are often after the lowest hp team m8 etc, not to mention decoy doesnt protect just you, its a free offtank for your entire party for a while too.

-what is your current (unbufed) crit and attack % with what build?
cuz if you build with assassinate wich everyone should, and have any decent amount of dex (wich you need for gear at least) you can easily push active 80% crit rates
and that means a talent that increases critical damage by 25% increases ALL your damage by around 20%

Modifié par Ganen, 23 mars 2011 - 05:56 .

[opposition01]

I have to speak up here for the Duelist/Assassin DW Build. I'll give that a Shadow/Assassin is probably considerably more survivable for the Decoy alone. However as an in your face brawler I loved playing the Duelist/Assassin combo. Vendetta may well be my favorite ability in the game. The instant tp across field meant an automatic first strike against any target, anywhere. Going Duelist/Assassin also let me take even more advantage of the cross class combos, with brutal options for both Stagger and Brittle. That much damage could build up threat, but on Hard I had no problems with survivability. I wouldn't want to try to run him solo on Nightmare, then yeah, take Shadow over Duelist, but I did go back and try a few of the big group fights on Nightmare just to try it out and with proper team management he still had no problem. The thing I really appreciated was that Vendetta pretty much meant an insta-kill on all mage opponents without having to try to charge through the field or run up stairways. Also, the 1-2-3 punch of Vendetta, Assassinate, Twin Dragons.... so pretty

[Dead End FRS]

I'm playing on nightmare.
Build is http://biowarefans.c...IjpLTntelBFsHDE
Crit: 65%, crit dmg 271%, attack (vs. boss) 57%. Self buffed 70/271/87, heroic aura 80/271/100

[Ace Attorney]

opposition01 wrote...

I have to speak up here for the Duelist/Assassin DW Build. I'll give that a Shadow/Assassin is probably considerably more survivable for the Decoy alone. However as an in your face brawler I loved playing the Duelist/Assassin combo. Vendetta may well be my favorite ability in the game. The instant tp across field meant an automatic first strike against any target, anywhere. Going Duelist/Assassin also let me take even more advantage of the cross class combos, with brutal options for both Stagger and Brittle. That much damage could build up threat, but on Hard I had no problems with survivability. I wouldn't want to try to run him solo on Nightmare, then yeah, take Shadow over Duelist, but I did go back and try a few of the big group fights on Nightmare just to try it out and with proper team management he still had no problem. The thing I really appreciated was that Vendetta pretty much meant an insta-kill on all mage opponents without having to try to charge through the field or run up stairways. Also, the 1-2-3 punch of Vendetta, Assassinate, Twin Dragons.... so pretty

Twin Dragons what?:happy:

[opposition01]

Sorry, Twin Fangs. Minor brain lapse as typing away at work during lunch.

[Dead End FRS]

After I got my hands on items that made me immun to knockbacks, I mostly ran around the outskirts of larger battles, picking of archers and other annoying stuff Avaline had a hard time binding to her. Just jumped back to the main battle to blow of cooldowns or help out my ranged support

[Ganen]

Dead End FRS wrote...

I'm playing on nightmare.
Build is http://biowarefans.c...IjpLTntelBFsHDE
Crit: 65%, crit dmg 271%, attack (vs. boss) 57%. Self buffed 70/271/87, heroic aura 80/271/100

you could boost your crit chance a bit though talents alone (including subterfuge ones), and you are over cap for attack
and all you would really loose is vendetta really.
in exchance you would get roughtly 20% increase in all your dps, and tbh you could save alot more talent points to use in scoundrel agro management aswell as sabotage CC obscure and disorient CCC

but you definetly play much difrently than me with that build, and you are also melee so idk, I dont think I couldp lay a rogue with that buiild at all... no goad or armstice... no fog no nothing :/

if it works and lets you have fun great.
but when it comes to dps, numbers say shadow + assassination output more

Modifié par Ganen, 23 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[Ace Attorney]

Another fun idea I read somewhere was at level 14 taking a Maker's Sigh and putting everything in your 2 specializations:
http://biowarefans.c...elBFsDEGIjpLxTn (Assassin/Duelist)
http://biowarefans.c...elBFsDEaVrwQuSf (Assassin/Shadow)

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 23 mars 2011 - 06:13 .

[Dead End FRS]

I still don't get how you justify 20% damage increase, with only 50% crit damage bonus added ^^

By moving one point I could trade 20% attack vs. 10 crit, but since both only benifit auto attacks, I'd go with 13% hit over 10% crit. Also I'd imagine both numbers would be maxed out while flanking anyway.

[Ace Attorney]

Disorienting Criticals ups SnS DPS too.

[Dead End FRS]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Another fun idea I read somewhere was at level 14 taking a Maker's Sigh and putting everything in your 2 specializations:
http://biowarefans.c...elBFsDEGIjpLxTn (Assassin/Duelist)
http://biowarefans.c...elBFsDEaVrwQuSf (Assassin/Shadow)

Looks quite good, but I'd try to at least get Unforgiving Chain, Blindside and something to save your skin (like Stealth) in there

[Ganen]

Dead End FRS wrote...

I still don't get how you justify 20% damage increase, with only 50% crit damage bonus added ^^

By moving one point I could trade 20% attack vs. 10 crit, but since both only benifit auto attacks, I'd go with 13% hit over 10% crit. Also I'd imagine both numbers would be maxed out while flanking anyway.

13% hit is 13% hit too much when you are already over the cap m8

while the higher your crit rate the more often you benefit from your high crit damage bonuses = more dps, and the higher the crit bonus the more damage your get from your crits = even more dps.

its simple numbers, if you manage to get a effective crit rate of 80% or so (wich isnt hard with assasination subterfuge/shadow without even mentioning party debuffs and CCC) that means that 80% of your attacks will be doing crit bonus damage right?

if you atek a talent that increases your critical damage bonus by 25% thats a 25% damage increase in all your crits, ergo if you crit 80% of the time a 25% increased crit damage is an efective 20%ish increase in ALL your damage.

Modifié par Ganen, 23 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[Ace Attorney]

Ganen wrote...

Dead End FRS wrote...

I still don't get how you justify 20% damage increase, with only 50% crit damage bonus added ^^

By moving one point I could trade 20% attack vs. 10 crit, but since both only benifit auto attacks, I'd go with 13% hit over 10% crit. Also I'd imagine both numbers would be maxed out while flanking anyway.

13% hit is 13% hit too much when you are already over the cap m8

while the higher your crit rate the more often you benefit from your high crit damage bonuses = more dps, and the higher the crit bonus the more damage your get from your crits = even more dps.

its simple numbers, if you manage to get a effective crit rate of 80% or so (wich isnt hard with assasination subterfuge/shadow without even mentioning party debuffs and CCC) that means that 80% of your attacks will be doing crit bonus damage right?

if you atek a talent that increases your critical damage bonus by 25% thats a 25% damage increase in all your crits, ergo if you crit 80% of the time a 25% increased crit damage is an efective 20%ish increase in ALL your damage.

Yes, 20% of your default DPS, but he means that that 20% is dwarfed when you look at the big picture as it becomes less (he has 270% Critical damage, 25% out of 295% isn't much).

But as I said, Disorienting Criticals ups DPS too, just indirectly (Warrior/Mages).

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 23 mars 2011 - 06:28 .

[Atmosfear3]

If you go shadow, don't bother with Predator. Your crit should be high enough that you are critting every other hit if not every hit to begin with. Imperceptible and Indiscernible are also pointless since the base talent Inconspicuous already drops all your threat and reduces your threat generated by 50%. You're never going to pull aggro off Aveline even if you tried.

[cloudblade70]

Actually with disorienting criticals and obscure, you're really increasing crit damage by 50%, not 25%.

That should be simple to pull off with shadow veil + decoy, or even chameleon's breath/shroud.

Modifié par cloudblade70, 23 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[Dead End FRS]

Thats not entirely correct, if we are not talking about a cenario, where you have 0% crit damage bonus.

Say the character has 100% crit chance (80% + flanking and/or unforgiving chain) and a 270% crit damage bonus.
- His total damage is 370% of normal weapon damage every hit (since he crits every time).
- Adding 50% crit damage bonus means increasing this to 420% of normal weapon damage every hit.
- 50 is 13.51% of 370 (the old damage output).
- So even with a cap at 300% aside (which i am not sure of) you still only get a 13.5% dps increase, while loosing attack and roughly 10% attackspeed and CD time, making the total bonus maybe 3-5%.

[cloudblade70]

Now we're being nitpicky, I wasn't talking overall dps increase, I was just talking about how much +crit damage you could get from shadow.

[Ace Attorney]

cloudblade70 wrote...

Now we're being nitpicky, I wasn't talking overall dps increase, I was just talking about how much +crit damage you could get from shadow.

I think that was mostly at Ganen.

[zeypher]

so what is the max crit dmg cap? 300%?

[Ace Attorney]

zeypher wrote...

so what is the max crit dmg cap? 300%?

I wanna know this too.