219 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I don't hate Sebastian. I just laugh everytime he vows to destroy Kirkwall because I let Anders live when Elthina said herself:

Death is never justice

Specifically Anders' death and the deaths of all the citizens of Kirkwall. And since Kirkwall is still standing when Varric is interrogated I'm going to assume that he gave up on his vow for vengeance on Kirkwall. He may still come after Hawke, or maybe he's made his peace with the issue.

Ironic though that he wanted to pursue vengeance on a man who harbored a spirit of Justice/Vengeance inside of him.

Plus, I see it as the final nudge that my Hawke gave Sebastian in order to retake his lands. I've been telling him and telling him to retake his lands, and he says he needs a sign from the Maker. Consider my actions that sign then.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 mai 2011 - 11:59 .

[Chiramu]

TeamLexana wrote...

I wasn't upset over him getting ragetrantrumstompoff over letting Anders live, I'm more shocked more of the companions didn't do the same thing. .

This is a good point, why did none of the other companions say a think about what Anders just did O_o.

Although when I persuaded Merrill to stay with me while siding with the templars, she did mention fate not being in their hands (or something like that). Still it is strange how they don't react to it.

Though I was surprised, but I think perhaps I was a lot like Hawke's companions where they just stood there like stuffed animals or something.

[CorruptedRed]

I understand why Sebastian was so angry and had all that man-fury. He was a hardcore holy man and Anders blew up the chantry along with everyone and their holy mother. I didn't blame him for wanting me to kill Anders because even I didn't entirely agree with what Anders did. While I did see why Sebastian felt the way he did, I was in a relationship with Anders and somewhat understood his actions (though I really did want to punch him in the face for doing it) and when Sebastian said he was going to bring an army to Kirkwall and find my precious Anders, I was with you as far as thinking to myself "Have you not seen the epic-ness that is me? Bring it!"

It seems as if all of the companions clash with each other in some way or another throughout the game for whatever reason, which makes things interesting because it's more realistic to me. However, in this case, I wish I had more options with Sebastian instead of --kill Anders or don't kill Anders--because I generally don't like taking sides when both parties are right in some way. Despite everything though, I am looking forward to seeing Sebastian in the possible future, and seeing this army he promised me. Should be interesting, to say the least.

Modifié par CorruptedRed, 27 mai 2011 - 03:26 .

[phyreblade74]

I enjoy Sebastian, and he's usually a core member of my group during Act III. He doesn't go out of the way to antagonize people, he doesn't try to hurt the others in the group with snide and cruel remarks, he's not lying to or manipulating my Hawke, he asks for rather than demands help and assistance, and he offers his loyalty and support openly and honestly.

He's nice. I generally believe Hawke needs some "nice" in her life. She gets so little of it, shrug.

[Xilizhra]

So, pretty much like Merrill?

Though given his consideration of turning her, Anders and possibly me into the templars, I don't know how much I can say for his loyalty.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 mai 2011 - 08:47 .

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

So, pretty much like Merrill?

Though given his consideration of turning her, Anders and possibly me into the templars, I don't know how much I can say for his loyalty.

Merrill is cute.  Kinda stupid and cute.  I have her along mainly because she makes me laugh.  And that's about it.  She isn't a big part of my groups.  I do her personal quests and then leave her at home so she can stand there, frustrated, when she can't get the mirror to work, lol.

And, yes.  Loyalty.  Sebastian is one of the most loyal members of your group, precisely because while he's inclined to turn Apostate mages over to the Templars, he does NOT.  It's his loyalty -- and only his loyalty -- that has him choose that course.  Everything else, every bit of common sense he possesses and even his preachy faith, tells him to do otherwise.

I always think that's part of the reason he's so upset at the end when one of those same mages blows to smithereens his friend and mentor.  He was loyal and his loyalty was betrayed.

[RangerSG]

phyreblade74 wrote...

I enjoy Sebastian, and he's usually a core member of my group during Act III. He doesn't go out of the way to antagonize people, he doesn't try to hurt the others in the group with snide and cruel remarks, he's not lying to or manipulating my Hawke, he asks for rather than demands help and assistance, and he offers his loyalty and support openly and honestly.

He's nice. I generally believe Hawke needs some "nice" in her life. She gets so little of it, shrug.

You mean other than when he suggests turning over your Apostate friends to the Chantry? That's not antagonizing?

[RangerSG]

Chiramu wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

I wasn't upset over him getting ragetrantrumstompoff over letting Anders live, I'm more shocked more of the companions didn't do the same thing. .

This is a good point, why did none of the other companions say a think about what Anders just did O_o.

Although when I persuaded Merrill to stay with me while siding with the templars, she did mention fate not being in their hands (or something like that). Still it is strange how they don't react to it.

Though I was surprised, but I think perhaps I was a lot like Hawke's companions where they just stood there like stuffed animals or something.

I think stunned shock is not an untoward reaction to something like that. How many people watched 9/11 for hours (days even) in silence after? I can easily imagine them being stunned until Hawke asks for their opinions to wake them up.

[phyreblade74]

RangerSG wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

I enjoy Sebastian, and he's usually a core member of my group during Act III. He doesn't go out of the way to antagonize people, he doesn't try to hurt the others in the group with snide and cruel remarks, he's not lying to or manipulating my Hawke, he asks for rather than demands help and assistance, and he offers his loyalty and support openly and honestly.

He's nice. I generally believe Hawke needs some "nice" in her life. She gets so little of it, shrug.

You mean other than when he suggests turning over your Apostate friends to the Chantry? That's not antagonizing?

Uhm, nope, not at all.  He'd be a hypocrite if he didn't at least consider it. 

[RangerSG]

phyreblade74 wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

I enjoy Sebastian, and he's usually a core member of my group during Act III. He doesn't go out of the way to antagonize people, he doesn't try to hurt the others in the group with snide and cruel remarks, he's not lying to or manipulating my Hawke, he asks for rather than demands help and assistance, and he offers his loyalty and support openly and honestly.

He's nice. I generally believe Hawke needs some "nice" in her life. She gets so little of it, shrug.

You mean other than when he suggests turning over your Apostate friends to the Chantry? That's not antagonizing?

Uhm, nope, not at all.  He'd be a hypocrite if he didn't at least consider it. 

Really, it's not something he couldn't speak about in private. No, he has to talk about it with your mages RIGHT THERE. *facepalm*

[phyreblade74]

RangerSG wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

I enjoy Sebastian, and he's usually a core member of my group during Act III. He doesn't go out of the way to antagonize people, he doesn't try to hurt the others in the group with snide and cruel remarks, he's not lying to or manipulating my Hawke, he asks for rather than demands help and assistance, and he offers his loyalty and support openly and honestly.

He's nice. I generally believe Hawke needs some "nice" in her life. She gets so little of it, shrug.

You mean other than when he suggests turning over your Apostate friends to the Chantry? That's not antagonizing?

Uhm, nope, not at all.  He'd be a hypocrite if he didn't at least consider it. 

Really, it's not something he couldn't speak about in private. No, he has to talk about it with your mages RIGHT THERE. *facepalm*

Which goes back to my admiration for his honesty, too, lmao.  You always know where you stand with Sebastian.  Not like being lied to by a so-called friend so you can help him gather together a bomb to be used to slaughter a whole slew of innocent people.

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

I don't know about anyone else... but I want a DLC where Sebastian invades and I get to kill him.

Totally not hypocritical at all.  

Because someone doesn't like Sebastian and wants to defeat him? Isn't it hypocritical of Sebastian to discuss handing over the apostates in Hawke's group while getting help from them at the same time?

[LobselVith8]

Rykoth wrote...

Here's why Sebastian is justified.

Anders rebels against the Templars because:
- He doesn't like authority

I'm sure the mages who are getting raped, whipped for merely speaking to civilians, and illegally made tranquil (like his former boyfriend Karl, who begged Anders to kill him rather than let him live out the rest of his life as a "templar puppet") has something to do with his view of templars.

Rykoth wrote...

- In Fereldan, in probably the Circle of Magi that looks like Hotel Hilton, he constantly escaped

Anders probably wanted to be free of the same Circle Tower that Wynne admits is a "prison" and "an oppressive place."

Rykoth wrote...

- Obviously got anger issues coming from the Grey Wardens, who he also ditches (commitment issues much?)

I'm sure the ex-templar Grey Warden trying to murder him had something to do with it.

Rykoth wrote...

- The Templars are mean, and he has Justice in him, and Justice became Vengeance

Forcing mages into subjugation for almost a thousand years makes many people view the Chantry and the templars negatively. Committing genocide against men, women, and children for an act they had nothing to do with certainly gives Anders the right to view them that way. Even Hawke can have the opinion that the Chantry forces mages into slavery.

Rykoth wrote...

Sebastian is "single minded" because:
- His family was murdered

Now, IMO, Anders, while a cool character, deserves to be executed for what he's done. The stupid little rebel abomination blows up the Chantry with an innocent woman inside it. An innocent woman who may as well be the only family Sebastian has left (not bloodwise, but how close they are.)

Grand Cleric Elthina is the highest ranking member of the Chantry who did nothing despite what was being done to the mages, and the fact that her subordinate was becoming the dictator of the city-state while she did nothing. Even when Hawke presented her with the fact that Petrice was using her name to kidnap and kill Qunari, she did nothing.

Rykoth wrote...

I'm sorry, but I'd be threatening to rain death on Kirkwall too if Anders was spared and that happened to my family. It's called both speaking out of anger, sorrow, and having nothing left to lose.

If Sebastian wanted Anders dead, maybe he should have killed him (or at least tried to kill him) instead of asking Hawke to kill him.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 mai 2011 - 01:34 .

[LobselVith8]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, pretty much like Merrill?

Though given his consideration of turning her, Anders and possibly me into the templars, I don't know how much I can say for his loyalty.

Merrill is cute.  Kinda stupid and cute. 

All stupid people use blood magic proficiently, build a two thousand year old elven device that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, are adept at magic to the point of being able to tell whether a person is possessed or not, and can decipher the nature of a demon with a glance.

phyreblade74 wrote...

And, yes.  Loyalty.  Sebastian is one of the most loyal members of your group, precisely because while he's inclined to turn Apostate mages over to the Templars, he does NOT.  It's his loyalty -- and only his loyalty -- that has him choose that course.  Everything else, every bit of common sense he possesses and even his preachy faith, tells him to do otherwise.

Isn't it actually because he tries to get Fenris to side with Sebastian's plan, and the former Tevinter slave refuses when he tells him to discuss the matter with Hawke?

phyreblade74 wrote...

I always think that's part of the reason he's so upset at the end when one of those same mages blows to smithereens his friend and mentor.  He was loyal and his loyalty was betrayed.

That's not the impression I got from the dialogue between Anders and Fenris:

Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.

Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?

Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.

Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?

Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.

Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?

Fenris: Uh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

[phyreblade74]

LobselVith8 wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, pretty much like Merrill?

Though given his consideration of turning her, Anders and possibly me into the templars, I don't know how much I can say for his loyalty.

Merrill is cute.  Kinda stupid and cute. 

All stupid people use blood magic proficiently, build a two thousand year old elven device that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, are adept at magic to the point of being able to tell whether a person is possessed or not, and can decipher the nature of a demon with a glance.

phyreblade74 wrote...

And, yes.  Loyalty.  Sebastian is one of the most loyal members of your group, precisely because while he's inclined to turn Apostate mages over to the Templars, he does NOT.  It's his loyalty -- and only his loyalty -- that has him choose that course.  Everything else, every bit of common sense he possesses and even his preachy faith, tells him to do otherwise.

Isn't it actually because he tries to get Fenris to side with Sebastian's plan, and the former Tevinter slave refuses when he tells him to discuss the matter with Hawke?

phyreblade74 wrote...

I always think that's part of the reason he's so upset at the end when one of those same mages blows to smithereens his friend and mentor.  He was loyal and his loyalty was betrayed.

That's not the impression I got from the dialogue between Anders and Fenris:

Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.

Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?

Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.

Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?

Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.

Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?

Fenris: Uh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

Sigh.

Merrill is stupid the way my teenage daughter is stupid.  She thinks she knows so much better than everyone else and just barrels on ahead no matter what, because nothing bad will happen to HER, because SHE is in perfect control all the time, and no one can tell her different, not ever, uh-uhn, no way.  That doesn't speak at all to her ability to learn and do really cool things, nope. She behaves like any adolescent -- juvenile and immature.  Stupid, basically.

Now, I can't speak to what was going through Sebastian's mind when he determined NOT to turn Anders and Merrill over to the Templars, mind you.  My impression is based on the fact he says, openly, he's considered it and then he doesn't do it.  To me, that speaks to his loyalty towards Hawke and the friends she's gathered round her.  Out of that loyalty, he remained quiet, even though he felt it was wrong the mages weren't in the Circle. 

And then one of those mages he didn't report to the Templars destroyed the Chantry.  My impression is that would be a huge and devastating blow, a betrayal of immense proportions.  Especially inasmuch I usually include Sebastian on the "Justice" quest line, mind you.  My Sebastian helped gather the ingredients that went into the bomb.  Tough, that.  Which is all I said.

[TEWR]

Merrill is stupid the way my teenage daughter is stupid. She thinks she knows so much better than everyone else and just barrels on ahead no matter what, because nothing bad will happen to HER, because SHE is in perfect control all the time, and no one can tell her different, not ever, uh-uhn, no way. That doesn't speak at all to her ability to learn and do really cool things, nope. She behaves like any adolescent -- juvenile and immature. Stupid, basically.

When did Merrill ever say that her working with Audacity didn't have the potential to be horribly disastrous?

Also, take into account that Audacity was trapped for centuries and could only escape if a powerful mage cast a spell to release him.

[phyreblade74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill is stupid the way my teenage daughter is stupid. She thinks she knows so much better than everyone else and just barrels on ahead no matter what, because nothing bad will happen to HER, because SHE is in perfect control all the time, and no one can tell her different, not ever, uh-uhn, no way. That doesn't speak at all to her ability to learn and do really cool things, nope. She behaves like any adolescent -- juvenile and immature. Stupid, basically.

When did Merrill ever say that her working with Audacity didn't have the potential to be horribly disastrous?

Also, take into account that Audacity was trapped for centuries and could only escape if a powerful mage cast a spell to release him.

Okay, so she KNOWS it's stupid.  How does that make it less stupid?  In fact, that just makes it MORE stupid, imo.  Stupid -- like driving while drunk, maybe.  "Oh, yea, it's a really dumb thing to do but I'm going to do it anyway." 

[phyreblade74]

double post, sorry

Modifié par phyreblade74, 28 mai 2011 - 03:33 .

[LobselVith8]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Sigh.

Merrill thinks the Eluvian can help her people. While Marethari disagrees, it isn't necessarily true that the protagonist will disagree as well. If there's the smallest chance that the ancient elven device can lead to an irrevocable and transcendent change for the People, why shouldn't Merrill explore it?

phyreblade74 wrote...

Merrill is stupid the way my teenage daughter is stupid.  She thinks she knows so much better than everyone else and just barrels on ahead no matter what, because nothing bad will happen to HER, because SHE is in perfect control all the time, and no one can tell her different, not ever, uh-uhn, no way.  That doesn't speak at all to her ability to learn and do really cool things, nope. She behaves like any adolescent -- juvenile and immature.  Stupid, basically.

Doesn't that mean she behaves exactly like The Warden does when he goes to Haven to locate Brother Genitivi, and is on an expedition for a mythical Urn of Sacred Ashes to save Arl Eamon? Merrill thinks the Eluvian could benefit her people, so I don't see what's wrong with a character being proactive, particularly when the protagonist is so reactive to the point of absurdity.

phyreblade74 wrote...

Now, I can't speak to what was going through Sebastian's mind when he determined NOT to turn Anders and Merrill over to the Templars, mind you.  My impression is based on the fact he says, openly, he's considered it and then he doesn't do it.  To me, that speaks to his loyalty towards Hawke and the friends she's gathered round her.  Out of that loyalty, he remained quiet, even though he felt it was wrong the mages weren't in the Circle. 

It possibly speaks to loyalty towards Hawke alone, but it goes nowhere because Fenris cuts him off as an ally in giving up the apostates. I don't hate Sebastian, let me address that. There are traits of his that bother me (like thinking the Dalish need to convert to the Chant and his view on the Chantry controlled Circles), but I respect that he's willing to defend the mages and can recognize that what the templars are doing is tyranny.

phyreblade74 wrote...

And then one of those mages he didn't report to the Templars destroyed the Chantry.

Because Anders is protected by Hawke's reputation, which Meredith addresses in Act III in "On the Loose." It's not like the templars aren't aware that Anders exists. Even if a rivalled Hawke gives up what Anders did to Cullen and Elthina, neither of them actually do anything about it.

phyreblade74 wrote...

My impression is that would be a huge and devastating blow, a betrayal of immense proportions.  Especially inasmuch I usually include Sebastian on the "Justice" quest line, mind you.  My Sebastian helped gather the ingredients that went into the bomb.  Tough, that.  Which is all I said.

What do you think Sebastian would end up doing as far as the mages are concerned, post-DA2's finale? If he helped an apostate Hawke, do you think he'd welcome Hawke into Starkhaven, or even agree with the idea of mages having autonomy if his friend wants to lead a mage revolution? I'm genuinely curious what you think.

[TEWR]

phyreblade74 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill is stupid the way my teenage daughter is stupid. She thinks she knows so much better than everyone else and just barrels on ahead no matter what, because nothing bad will happen to HER, because SHE is in perfect control all the time, and no one can tell her different, not ever, uh-uhn, no way. That doesn't speak at all to her ability to learn and do really cool things, nope. She behaves like any adolescent -- juvenile and immature. Stupid, basically.

When did Merrill ever say that her working with Audacity didn't have the potential to be horribly disastrous?

Also, take into account that Audacity was trapped for centuries and could only escape if a powerful mage cast a spell to release him.

Okay, so she KNOWS it's stupid.  How does that make it less stupid?  In fact, that just makes it MORE stupid, imo.  Stupid -- like driving while drunk, maybe.  "Oh, yea, it's a really dumb thing to do but I'm going to do it anyway." 

Except Merrill has only gone to see Audacity a total of 3 times.

1) When she went to the statue with Marethari
2) When she learned blood magic
3) When Hawke takes her, which is where she says she needs to go back to see the spirit.

After she learned blood magic, she worked on her own using lore. She acknowledged that the third time* could be potentially disastrous, and she took precautions should that event (which never would've happened) occur. Doesn't sound like a dumb person to me.

And also, teenagers can be smarter than adults and know more than adults on certain issues. At least in my city they can.


*she doesn't actually say it's the third time but the way into the cave was blocked both years we played prior to her quest and she avoids going back to the clan alone.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mai 2011 - 04:46 .

[phyreblade74]

LobselVith8 wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Sigh.

Merrill thinks the Eluvian can help her people. While Marethari disagrees, it isn't necessarily true that the protagonist will disagree as well. If there's the smallest chance that the ancient elven device can lead to an irrevocable and transcendent change for the People, why shouldn't Merrill explore it?

phyreblade74 wrote...

Merrill is stupid the way my teenage daughter is stupid.  She thinks she knows so much better than everyone else and just barrels on ahead no matter what, because nothing bad will happen to HER, because SHE is in perfect control all the time, and no one can tell her different, not ever, uh-uhn, no way.  That doesn't speak at all to her ability to learn and do really cool things, nope. She behaves like any adolescent -- juvenile and immature.  Stupid, basically.

Doesn't that mean she behaves exactly like The Warden does when he goes to Haven to locate Brother Genitivi, and is on an expedition for a mythical Urn of Sacred Ashes to save Arl Eamon? Merrill thinks the Eluvian could benefit her people, so I don't see what's wrong with a character being proactive, particularly when the protagonist is so reactive to the point of absurdity.

phyreblade74 wrote...

Now, I can't speak to what was going through Sebastian's mind when he determined NOT to turn Anders and Merrill over to the Templars, mind you.  My impression is based on the fact he says, openly, he's considered it and then he doesn't do it.  To me, that speaks to his loyalty towards Hawke and the friends she's gathered round her.  Out of that loyalty, he remained quiet, even though he felt it was wrong the mages weren't in the Circle. 

It possibly speaks to loyalty towards Hawke alone, but it goes nowhere because Fenris cuts him off as an ally in giving up the apostates. I don't hate Sebastian, let me address that. There are traits of his that bother me (like thinking the Dalish need to convert to the Chant and his view on the Chantry controlled Circles), but I respect that he's willing to defend the mages and can recognize that what the templars are doing is tyranny.

phyreblade74 wrote...

And then one of those mages he didn't report to the Templars destroyed the Chantry.

Because Anders is protected by Hawke's reputation, which Meredith addresses in Act III in "On the Loose." It's not like the templars aren't aware that Anders exists. Even if a rivalled Hawke gives up what Anders did to Cullen and Elthina, neither of them actually do anything about it.

phyreblade74 wrote...

My impression is that would be a huge and devastating blow, a betrayal of immense proportions.  Especially inasmuch I usually include Sebastian on the "Justice" quest line, mind you.  My Sebastian helped gather the ingredients that went into the bomb.  Tough, that.  Which is all I said.

What do you think Sebastian would end up doing as far as the mages are concerned, post-DA2's finale? If he helped an apostate Hawke, do you think he'd welcome Hawke into Starkhaven, or even agree with the idea of mages having autonomy if his friend wants to lead a mage revolution? I'm genuinely curious what you think.

Every bit of evidence we have says the Mirror is dangerous, while nothing indicates it'll lead to any discernable advancement for the Dalish.  Tamlen, after all, was killed upon coming into contact with the thing and the Dalish warden was sickened by it.  Merrill working on something that, even if only possibly, killed or otherwise sickened members of her clan makes her actions in regards that particular object reckless and stupid. 

As for Sebastian, you have to understand I play a pro-templar game.  In my canon, Sebastian would support Hawke's role as the new Viscountess of Kirkwall, politically and otherwise.  As I imagine Cullen would become the Knight-Commander of the city, I tend to see a Circle in Kirkwall more along the lines of the Ferelden Circle, where the abuses incurred under an insane Meredith wouldn't be tolerated.  I don't see Sebastian disagreeing with that, no.  I could imagine he would be open to reforms in the Circle, even.  He respects Hawke that much, I think.

[TEWR]

Every bit of evidence we have says the Mirror is dangerous, while nothing indicates it'll lead to any discernable advancement for the Dalish. Tamlen, after all, was killed upon coming into contact with the thing and the Dalish warden was sickened by it. Merrill working on something that, even if only possibly, killed or otherwise sickened members of her clan makes her actions in regards that particular object reckless and stupid.

Wrong. We know it's safe because Merrill cleansed it and it didn't infect her or anyone else in the Alienage, or even Hawke. If the taint was still present it would've spread to the whole mirror and amplified the taintiness (sorry, had a brain meltdown and couldn't think of a good word).

Also, we know that if Merrill gets it to work, the elves have a way to communicate. Merrill does in fact know that this was what it was used for. She tells Hawke and Varric this.

Meaning that if you spared her clan and if you supported her efforts then when another clan comes with Halla for them she could give it to the other clan and tell them it's a functioning method of keeping in touch with the other clans over a distance. I would hope that her clan would realize how idiotic they were acting at that point.

[phyreblade74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill is stupid the way my teenage daughter is stupid. She thinks she knows so much better than everyone else and just barrels on ahead no matter what, because nothing bad will happen to HER, because SHE is in perfect control all the time, and no one can tell her different, not ever, uh-uhn, no way. That doesn't speak at all to her ability to learn and do really cool things, nope. She behaves like any adolescent -- juvenile and immature. Stupid, basically.

When did Merrill ever say that her working with Audacity didn't have the potential to be horribly disastrous?

Also, take into account that Audacity was trapped for centuries and could only escape if a powerful mage cast a spell to release him.

Okay, so she KNOWS it's stupid.  How does that make it less stupid?  In fact, that just makes it MORE stupid, imo.  Stupid -- like driving while drunk, maybe.  "Oh, yea, it's a really dumb thing to do but I'm going to do it anyway." 

Except Merrill has only gone to see Audacity a total of 3 times.

1) When she went to the statue with Marethari
2) When she learned blood magic
3) When Hawke takes her, which is where she says she needs to go back to see the spirit.

After she learned blood magic, she worked on her own using lore. She acknowledged that the third time* could be potentially disastrous, and she took precautions should that event (which never would've happened) occur. Doesn't sound like a dumb person to me.

And also, teenagers can be smarter than adults and know more than adults on certain issues. At least in my city they can.


*she doesn't actually say it's the third time but the way into the cave was blocked both years we played prior to her quest and she avoids going back to the clan alone.

I'm confused.  She behaved stupidly only three times and that makes her less stupid, how? 

Do you understand what I mean when I use the word stupid?  I don't ask you that in any meanspirited way, mind you.  I'm just honestly wondering if you're really appreciating what I mean.  I say stupid as in reckless -- knowing better and doing it anyway, being foolishly bold, or having or showing a lack of concern for possible consequences, etc.  Nothing of which denies Merrill's intelligence or ability. 

I myself was a very smart teenager but I did a number of purely stupid things.  Most of us do that when we're growing up and it's understandable.  That's just the way I see Merrill, is all.  Cute and kinda stupid.  I like her actually, lol.

[LobselVith8]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Every bit of evidence we have says the Mirror is dangerous, while nothing indicates it'll lead to any discernable advancement for the Dalish. 

When it was tainted, which isn't the issue now because the shard was cleansed. If it wasn't, then Merrill would have succumbed to the same corruption that infected the elves in Witch Hunt because of the remaining shards from the broken Eluvian.

phyreblade74 wrote...

Tamlen, after all, was killed upon coming into contact with the thing and the Dalish warden was sickened by it.  Merrill working on something that, even if only possibly, killed or otherwise sickened members of her clan makes her actions in regards that particular object reckless and stupid. 

Again, you seem to think Merrill is stupid because of an issue that's no longer a factor. The shard Merrill has is cleansed; if it wasn't, Merrill would have been a ghoul a long time ago.

phyreblade74 wrote...

As for Sebastian, you have to understand I play a pro-templar game.  In my canon, Sebastian would support Hawke's role as the new Viscountess of Kirkwall, politically and otherwise. 

I figured you were a fan of Sebastian, so I thought you might have some idea on how he would react if he were good friends with a pro-mage apostate Hawke.

phyreblade74 wrote...

As I imagine Cullen would become the Knight-Commander of the city, I tend to see a Circle in Kirkwall more along the lines of the Ferelden Circle, where the abuses incurred under an insane Meredith wouldn't be tolerated.  I don't see Sebastian disagreeing with that, no.  I could imagine he would be open to reforms in the Circle, even.  He respects Hawke that much, I think.

Except the Circles of Magi across the continent rise up against Chantry and templar control, and emancipate themselves. It's an era of the mages being free, and the templars leaving the Chantry to hunt down the mages. Reforms aren't an issue. The status quo of the Chantry controlled Circles is gone. I'm curious how you think Sebastian would react if he were allied to a pro-mage Hawke. Hawke says the Chantry controlled Circles shouldn't be a torture chamber, and he agrees with Hawke that they must reclaim Andraste's mercy. Sebastian points out that they must show that the Chantry won't condone tyranny among its templars.

[TEWR]

If you're calling Merrill stupid for going with Marethari the first time, you're also calling Marethari stupid. A sentiment I agree with concerning Marethari. However, Marethari wanted Merrill to come along. So I do not see Merrill as being stupid there when they were both hearing Audacity's call.

The second time can be seen as reckless I guess (it's up to the individual I guess. and I admit I did get confused. I thought you actually meant dumb), but she knew what she was doing and how to use the spirit to her advantage (and we come to learn this later). The blood magic was what she needed, and it worked. Afterwards, she pretty much forgot about the spirit.

the third time is also a matter of opinion on recklessness I guess. She knew the risks, but she took careful steps to ensure that if something would go wrong, it wouldn't leave the cavern. She brought Hawke who has slain Darkspawn, thugs, demons, abominations, corpses, dragons, etc.. She made sure that what she was about to do had every safeguard in place.

And as for me, I myself am a smart teenager (though I want to find a way to say that with some measure of humility. It just.... doesn't sit well with me when I say "I'm a smart person")

EDIT: and I'm a fervent Merrill defender as you can see. Just go on any Merrill bashing thread and you'll see me defending her to the death. I fell in love with Merrill

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mai 2011 - 05:21 .