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[phyreblade74]

LobselVith8 wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Is that the only bad thing you see as coming of Merrill's actions?  Not me.  Merril wasn't able to live amongst her clan, because she turned to blood magic. 

The same clan members who denigrated her because she now lived in the city? How awful she can't live among those hypocrites anymore.

phyreblade74 wrote...

She wasn't able to be with people she loved and who loved her.  She was alone, scarred emotionally, obsessed even.  Flemeth tells her, "No path is darker than when your eyes are shut."  Merrill kept her eyes shut a long time.

Merrill had Hawke, Varric, and Isabela. And you think she kept her eyes shut - I don't.

phyreblade74 wrote...

And please tell me how putting that mirror back together was supposed to save the Elves from poverty and despair?  History isn't redone by benefit of understanding it.  Regardless of that Mirror, the Elves will continue to struggle and grow and change.  That's the way history works.

Societies benefit from scientific discoveries and advancements in technology. The fact that Hawke is ignorant of a great deal of information regarding the Eluvian tells me that he shouldn't be demanding that she stop trying to save her people.

phyreblade74 wrote...

BTW, I'm not blaming Merrill for what Marethari did.  Marethari's actions proved, rather, how utterly stupid Merrill was when she insisted she was in control.  She was never in control, not of Marethari, her clan, nor the demon.  She couldn't say for sure what any of them would do or how any of them would be effected.  Reckless.

You realize you're blaming Merrill for what another character does, right? How is Merrill stupid because Marethari did something based on the Keeper's opinion of what would happen?

Hypocrites, how?  What in Dalish history, ritual and culture leads you to the feeling they would be absolutely thrilled when one of their own left the Dalish to live in the city?  How often have the Dalish been pleased when one of their Keepers summons a demon using blood magic to recreate an object that's already killed a member of their clan?  Seriously, wouldn't it be hypocritical -- as in, contrary to their expressed beliefs and ideas -- if they behaved differently than they did?  What were they supposed to do, throw her a party?  Wouldn't THAT be hypocritical of them?

BTW, I'm not blaming Merrill for anything.  I'm saying what she did was stupid.  Her claim she was in control and nothing bad would happen was proved wrong.  It was stupid to insist different all along.

[phyreblade74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Is that the only bad thing you see as coming of Merrill's actions? Not me. Merril wasn't able to live amongst her clan, because she turned to blood magic. She wasn't able to be with people she loved and who loved her. She was alone, scarred emotionally, obsessed even. Flemeth tells her, "No path is darker than when your eyes are shut." Merrill kept her eyes shut a long time.

And please tell me how putting that mirror back together was supposed to save the Elves from poverty and despair? History isn't redone by benefit of understanding it. Regardless of that Mirror, the Elves will continue to struggle and grow and change. That's the way history works.

BTW, I'm not blaming Merrill for what Marethari did. Marethari's actions proved, rather, how utterly stupid Merrill was when she insisted she was in control. She was never in control, not of Marethari, her clan, nor the demon. She couldn't say for sure what any of them would do or how any of them would be effected. Reckless.

The clan ousted her, not Merrill. Zathrian used blood magic and Lanaya even suspected it, yet he wasn't thrown out as their keeper.

That mirror can act at the very least as a telephone and as far as we know is a portal to another realm (maybe more than one). If the elves could figure out how, they could use it as an escape and find a land of their own, free of oppression and racism.

Marethari is an adult. Merrill can't control another adult's actions. I hardly blame Merrill for what Marethari chose to do for a spirit that she acknowledged 7 or 8 years prior was trapped and couldn't do any harm to anyone.

I don't blame Merrill for Marethari feeding the clan baseless lies in a futile attempt to get her to return.

"Merrill will bring back the Blight disease!"
*clan is now afraid of Merrill*
"Come back to us, da'len. Stop working on the mirror"

If she was tainted ceasing contact with it wouldn't stop her from contracting it and the clan would either fear her or hate Marethari upon finding out that she's been lying.

Also we don't know that Flemeth, the woman who speaks in riddles as her primary language, was referring to Merrill's use of blood magic. Which kinda wouldn't make sense since Flemeth values power.

Nope, the Clan didn't oust her.  She left the Clan, rather.  "It was my choice," she says. 

It's like Merrill chose to drive drunk.  You can tell me it was okay, because she drove drunk numerous times and nothing untoward happened.  You can tell me it was okay, because she knew every component of that car and how it worked and how it would operate.  You can tell me it was okay, because there was no one else in the car with her and it was only her life she was risking.  You can tell me it was okay, because there was a life-saving antidote to cancer in the trunk she just had to get to the hospital down the road.  You can say all that and I'm still going to reply, driving drunk is a reckless, foolish, stupid thing to do.

Because no matter your experience, you're not in control, not really.  Things happen, crap happens.  People may try to jump in the car with you, may try to pull you from behind the wheel, like Merathari; or they may just wander out in front of you as you're moving along, like Pol.  There are rules by which we live our lives so as to maximize our ability to prevent bad stuff from happening, and ignoring those rules is, generally, STUPID.  That's all I'm saying.

Now, bout Sebastian...lol

[Xilizhra]

Actually, there's no proof that the demon possessing Marethari and the one in the idol were even the same one. Given the thinness of the Veil in that entire area in general and Sundermount in particular, and Marethari's obvious pride, it's entirely possible that the one in the idol did have genuinely honorable intentions towards Merrill and that her course of action wasn't dangerous at all; it could have been screwed up by another pride demon possessing Marethari, who decided to destroy a potential rival in Pride's End, then kill Merrill for good measure. Why? Well, think about Allure: a desire demon who magnified simple jealousy into murderous power-lust in Lady Harriman. A pride demon could very well twist Marethari's own arguments with Merrill into a burning desire to see Merrill fail at any cost, even her death.

[TEWR]

A drunk driver has their senses dulled. Merrill doesn't ever have her rational thought processes or anything else dulled. So it's not a good analogy. Not to me anyway.

Sometimes you have to be reckless (which I don't think she was). That doesn't mean what you're doing is wrong.


The fact is Merrill was in control of everything that happened and Marethari, being the idiot that she is, decided to ruin that. The spirit was trapped for centuries and could only escape if a powerful spell was cast to free it. There was nothing dangerous about talking to a spirit that could do no harm in the current state it was in. Marethari, the woman who told Merrill it was trapped 7 years ago, decides to free the damn thing and make herself an abomination.

You can't blame one person for the actions of another.

@Xilizhra: I like that idea. Considering the amount of demons and corpses of various types we faced on Sundermount, that is entirely likely.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mai 2011 - 02:33 .

[randomcheeses]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, there's no proof that the demon possessing Marethari and the one in the idol were even the same one. Given the thinness of the Veil in that entire area in general and Sundermount in particular, and Marethari's obvious pride, it's entirely possible that the one in the idol did have genuinely honorable intentions towards Merrill and that her course of action wasn't dangerous at all; it could have been screwed up by another pride demon possessing Marethari, who decided to destroy a potential rival in Pride's End, then kill Merrill for good measure. Why? Well, think about Allure: a desire demon who magnified simple jealousy into murderous power-lust in Lady Harriman. A pride demon could very well twist Marethari's own arguments with Merrill into a burning desire to see Merrill fail at any cost, even her death.

Really? You find that more likely than Merril just being wrong?

Sounds to me like you're bending over backwards to make excuses for and justify Merril's bad decisions. Liking a character doesn't mean you have to white-wash all their faults, you know, I like her too, but I still realise that her use of blood magic and demons was dangerous and wrong.

[LobselVith8]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Hypocrites, how?  

Having distain for city elves when the entire premise of the Dalish is that, when they get their homeland, they're supposed to welcome their city brethern and share their knowledge with them doesn't make them altruistic, to say the least. Having distain for Merrill because she lives in a city shouldn't make them discard her.

phyreblade74 wrote...

What in Dalish history, ritual and culture leads you to the feeling they would be absolutely thrilled when one of their own left the Dalish to live in the city?  

Except it's not only Merrill. Bring Fenris with you the first time you go to the Dalish clan on Sundermount, and you'll see that they have this view for all city elves.

phyreblade74 wrote...

How often have the Dalish been pleased when one of their Keepers summons a demon using blood magic to recreate an object that's already killed a member of their clan? 

You mean using blood magic to cleanse the shard of the Eluvian of the very taint that killed the two members of the Dalish.

phyreblade74 wrote...

Seriously, wouldn't it be hypocritical -- as in, contrary to their expressed beliefs and ideas -- if they behaved differently than they did?  What were they supposed to do, throw her a party?  Wouldn't THAT be hypocritical of them?

BTW, I'm not blaming Merrill for anything.  I'm saying what she did was stupid.  Her claim she was in control and nothing bad would happen was proved wrong.  It was stupid to insist different all along.

No, it wasn't proved wrong, because what happened to Marethari isn't Merrill's responsibility. Marethari is a grown woman. And I wouldn't find the idea of Marethari being against the Eluvian so insulting if I wasn't aware of the fact that the Dalish are predicated on learning about the elven past so they could recreate the glroy of Arlathan, which is precisely what Merrill is doing and Marethari is advocating against.

[Xilizhra]

randomcheeses wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, there's no proof that the demon possessing Marethari and the one in the idol were even the same one. Given the thinness of the Veil in that entire area in general and Sundermount in particular, and Marethari's obvious pride, it's entirely possible that the one in the idol did have genuinely honorable intentions towards Merrill and that her course of action wasn't dangerous at all; it could have been screwed up by another pride demon possessing Marethari, who decided to destroy a potential rival in Pride's End, then kill Merrill for good measure. Why? Well, think about Allure: a desire demon who magnified simple jealousy into murderous power-lust in Lady Harriman. A pride demon could very well twist Marethari's own arguments with Merrill into a burning desire to see Merrill fail at any cost, even her death.

Really? You find that more likely than Merril just being wrong?

Sounds to me like you're bending over backwards to make excuses for and justify Merril's bad decisions. Liking a character doesn't mean you have to white-wash all their faults, you know, I like her too, but I still realise that her use of blood magic and demons was dangerous and wrong.

Here are the things we have proof of:
1. Merrill found a pride demon in an idol who taught her blood magic. She then cleansed the Eluvian, which did nothing for seven years.
2. Merrill and Marethari were strongly opposed over the Eluvian issue.
3. Marethari is, in Act 3, a pride abomination who tries to kill Merrill and Hawke. Also, the demon is gone from the idol.
Everything else is either speculation or from an unreliable source. So I suppose it's up to you to decide.

[LobselVith8]

randomcheeses wrote...

Really? You find that more likely than Merril just being wrong?

I find it more likely that Marethari fell into Audacity's trap by becoming an abomination, since even Marethari didn't think Merrill was at risk for becoming an abomination by dealing with Audacity but by recreating the Eluvian. There was no evidence that Audacity had the intellect to re-design ancient elven technology to such a degree that it was going to free the demon from centuries of being entombed in a totem by ancient elven magic.

randomcheeses wrote...

Sounds to me like you're bending over backwards to make excuses for and justify Merril's bad decisions.

Or it could be that people thinking that Merrill trying to pursue a goal that could transform the lives of the elven men, women, and children across Thedas for the better is a worthy pursuit.

randomcheeses wrote...

Liking a character doesn't mean you have to white-wash all their faults, you know, I like her too, but I still realise that her use of blood magic and demons was dangerous and wrong.

Blood magic is wrong? Should we should let women get violated and people get eaten alive by darkspawn while the Archdemon invades all of Thedas because the blood magic that permits The Joining to create Grey Wardens because you think blood magic is wrong? Should we should stop Grey Warden mages from using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn since you think it's clearly wrong to use blood magic?

[TEWR]

phyreblade, is it your responsibility to make sure your mother doesn't do anything stupid? Or is it her responsibility to make responsible choices because she's a grown woman?

[phyreblade74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A drunk driver has their senses dulled. Merrill doesn't ever have her rational thought processes or anything else dulled. So it's not a good analogy. Not to me anyway.

Sometimes you have to be reckless (which I don't think she was). That doesn't mean what you're doing is wrong.


The fact is Merrill was in control of everything that happened and Marethari, being the idiot that she is, decided to ruin that. The spirit was trapped for centuries and could only escape if a powerful spell was cast to free it. There was nothing dangerous about talking to a spirit that could do no harm in the current state it was in. Marethari, the woman who told Merrill it was trapped 7 years ago, decides to free the damn thing and make herself an abomination.

You can't blame one person for the actions of another.

@Xilizhra: I like that idea. Considering the amount of demons and corpses of various types we faced on Sundermount, that is entirely likely.

Hilarious.  Your argument with me has centered on Merrill being a Dalish and a Keeper, someone who knows the lore and traditions of the Elves, and a Powerful Mage, someone who can utilize and wield the most powerful magics.  Marethari is all those things, too, and you dismiss her as an idiot.  Seems you buy into my understanding of what makes someone stupid, lol.  Even being a long-studied and powerful Dalish Keeper Mage isn't proof against stupidity, huh?

Oh, and you're making a leap, when you say Merrill's senses were perfectly clear and salient, too.  She was obsessed with the Mirror, and obsessions are generally signs of an unhealthy mental state.

Hey, I really do respect your feeling Merrill is the most brilliant of brilliant Elves, smarter than all the other Dalish Keepers out there, a paragon of Elves who knew better than EVERYONE.  I just don't agree with you and I like Sebastian more.  To each their own, right, lol?

[Xilizhra]

Hilarious. Your argument with me has centered on Merrill being a Dalish and a Keeper, someone who knows the lore and traditions of the Elves, and a Powerful Mage, someone who can utilize and wield the most powerful magics. Marethari is all those things, too, and you dismiss her as an idiot. Seems you buy into my understanding of what makes someone stupid, lol. Even being a long-studied and powerful Dalish Keeper Mage isn't proof against stupidity, huh?

Which one got possessed?

[phyreblade74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

phyreblade, is it your responsibility to make sure your mother doesn't do anything stupid? Or is it her responsibility to make responsible choices because she's a grown woman?

Actually, I'm a mother of young daughters, one of whom is a teenager.  I can relate to both Merrill and Marethari, in fact, having been a very intelligent young woman who thought she knew better than the adults around her and made some pretty self-destructive choices a time or two as well as being, now, an older, more experienced lady who's been burned a time and two and hopes to save my girls from the same hurts I suffered as I was growing up.

We're each responsible for the choices we make.  Merrill made some stupid choices and so did Marethari.  That's all.

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hilarious. Your argument with me has centered on Merrill being a Dalish and a Keeper, someone who knows the lore and traditions of the Elves, and a Powerful Mage, someone who can utilize and wield the most powerful magics. Marethari is all those things, too, and you dismiss her as an idiot. Seems you buy into my understanding of what makes someone stupid, lol. Even being a long-studied and powerful Dalish Keeper Mage isn't proof against stupidity, huh?

Which one got possessed?

She was stupid, too.  And?

[Xilizhra]

phyreblade74 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

phyreblade, is it your responsibility to make sure your mother doesn't do anything stupid? Or is it her responsibility to make responsible choices because she's a grown woman?

Actually, I'm a mother of young daughters, one of whom is a teenager.  I can relate to both Merrill and Marethari, in fact, having been a very intelligent young woman who thought she knew better than the adults around her and made some pretty self-destructive choices a time or two as well as being, now, an older, more experienced lady who's been burned a time and two and hopes to save my girls from the same hurts I suffered as I was growing up.

We're each responsible for the choices we make.  Merrill made some stupid choices and so did Marethari.  That's all.

I do hope you wouldn't kill them for disagreeing with you and being right about it.

She was stupid, too. And?

None of Merrill's choices led to provable harm for her (living among a clan that hated everything she was working for would hardly be better than moving to Kirkwall). Marethari... well, we don't really know what her choices were, only that she was possessed and tried to kill Merrill (maybe twice, considering the varterral thing).

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 mai 2011 - 03:18 .

[TEWR]

phyreblade74 wrote...


Hilarious.  Your argument with me has centered on Merrill being a Dalish and a Keeper, someone who knows the lore and traditions of the Elves, and a Powerful Mage, someone who can utilize and wield the most powerful magics.  Marethari is all those things, too, and you dismiss her as an idiot.  Seems you buy into my understanding of what makes someone stupid, lol.  Even being a long-studied and powerful Dalish Keeper Mage isn't proof against stupidity, huh?

Because Merrill was in no danger of getting possessed. Because Marethari let a demon into her body forgetting that 7 years prior she stated that Audacity was trapped forever in the statue and couldn't escape. Because Merrill went to see Audacity 3 times, as I've said before. If he was going to possess Merrill, he would've done so without teaching her blood magic.

Blood Magic as we know can be used not only against demons but can control them. I'm not saying Merrill would've done this. I highly doubt it as it doesn't fit her persona.

Marethari was an idiot because she thought she knew more about the Eluvian than Merrill did. Marethari said she wanted nothing to do with them and Merrill was the one who studied the lore and cleansed the shard. So it was no longer a threat and to continue to see it as such after Marethari was told numerous times that it wasn't is the epitome of arrogance and stupidity.

Oh, and you're making a leap, when you say Merrill's senses were perfectly clear and salient, too.  She was obsessed with the Mirror, and obsessions are generally signs of an unhealthy mental state.

We're all f*cked up in our own little f*cked up ways.

We're all obsessed with something. It's how we deal with it that shows whether we're mentally healthy or not. And since we don't know what Merrill was actually doing in those off years aside from a paragraph or two, I would not jump to the conclusion that she is mentally unhealthy.

Hey, I really do respect your feeling Merrill is the most brilliant of brilliant Elves, smarter than all the other Dalish Keepers out there, a paragon of Elves who knew better than EVERYONE.  I just don't agree with you and I like Sebastian more.  To each their own, right, lol?

I think she's the smartest mage aside from Flemeth and Morrigan, the smartest elf among her clan, and a person who knew better than the people who let fear overrule rational thought.

Now, as I can see we're not going to agree, we'll end it here I guess. But did you need to phrase your first sentence that way? I never once said any of those things.

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

phyreblade, is it your responsibility to make sure your mother doesn't do anything stupid? Or is it her responsibility to make responsible choices because she's a grown woman?

Actually, I'm a mother of young daughters, one of whom is a teenager.  I can relate to both Merrill and Marethari, in fact, having been a very intelligent young woman who thought she knew better than the adults around her and made some pretty self-destructive choices a time or two as well as being, now, an older, more experienced lady who's been burned a time and two and hopes to save my girls from the same hurts I suffered as I was growing up.

We're each responsible for the choices we make.  Merrill made some stupid choices and so did Marethari.  That's all.

I do hope you wouldn't kill them for disagreeing with you and being right about it.

She was stupid, too. And?

None of Merrill's choices led to provable harm for her (living among a clan that hated everything she was working for would hardly be better than moving to Kirkwall). Marethari... well, we don't really know what her choices were, only that she was possessed and tried to kill Merrill (maybe twice, considering the varterral thing).

Uh, nope, wouldn't kill my kids.  But I would die for them.  Who do you think it's easier for me to relate to?

I've already disagreed with you about the harm done.  There is no hunky-dory ending to Merrill's story; lots of people were hurt.  You're saying it has nothing at all to do with Merrill's choice-making, and I don't agree with you, for reasons I've repeated several times.  I end my story telling Merrill she can continue seeking Elven history in numerous ways aside from the Mirror and she admits she'd never really thought of that; which, to me, is telling.

Don't know how many circles you wish to go in, in regards the different ways we see the tale.  I've said what I think.  Merrill is a rather cute and somewhat stupid character; she makes me laugh; but she's not my favorite character and I generally leave her behind when I'm grouping. 

[phyreblade74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...


Hilarious.  Your argument with me has centered on Merrill being a Dalish and a Keeper, someone who knows the lore and traditions of the Elves, and a Powerful Mage, someone who can utilize and wield the most powerful magics.  Marethari is all those things, too, and you dismiss her as an idiot.  Seems you buy into my understanding of what makes someone stupid, lol.  Even being a long-studied and powerful Dalish Keeper Mage isn't proof against stupidity, huh?

Because Merrill was in no danger of getting possessed. Because Marethari let a demon into her body forgetting that 7 years prior she stated that Audacity was trapped forever in the statue and couldn't escape. Because Merrill went to see Audacity 3 times, as I've said before. If he was going to possess Merrill, he would've done so without teaching her blood magic.

Blood Magic as we know can be used not only against demons but can control them. I'm not saying Merrill would've done this. I highly doubt it as it doesn't fit her persona.

Marethari was an idiot because she thought she knew more about the Eluvian than Merrill did. Marethari said she wanted nothing to do with them and Merrill was the one who studied the lore and cleansed the shard. So it was no longer a threat and to continue to see it as such after Marethari was told numerous times that it wasn't is the epitome of arrogance and stupidity.

Oh, and you're making a leap, when you say Merrill's senses were perfectly clear and salient, too.  She was obsessed with the Mirror, and obsessions are generally signs of an unhealthy mental state.

We're all f*cked up in our own little f*cked up ways.

We're all obsessed with something. It's how we deal with it that shows whether we're mentally healthy or not. And since we don't know what Merrill was actually doing in those off years aside from a paragraph or two, I would not jump to the conclusion that she is mentally unhealthy.

Hey, I really do respect your feeling Merrill is the most brilliant of brilliant Elves, smarter than all the other Dalish Keepers out there, a paragon of Elves who knew better than EVERYONE.  I just don't agree with you and I like Sebastian more.  To each their own, right, lol?

I think she's the smartest mage aside from Flemeth and Morrigan, the smartest elf among her clan, and a person who knew better than the people who let fear overrule rational thought.

Now, as I can see we're not going to agree, we'll end it here I guess. But did you need to phrase your first sentence that way? I never once said any of those things.

Both Marethari and Merrill used what understandings they possessed to make choices that ended up hurting people.  You can't say Marethari is an idiot but not Merrill, as if Merrill knew so much better than Marethari; she didn't.  They knew, basically, about the same.  Wait, Marethari actually knew MORE, being older and more experienced a Keeper. 

So me, I say they were both acting equally stupid.  Merrill should've respected her elder enough to stop barrelling forward and endangering herself and Marethari should've known she couldn't truly save Merrill and gotten the Clan the heck on outta there.  Such is my own opinion.  I'm not going to agree with you anytime soon that Merrill is perfectly brilliant and EVERYONE around her was just too dumb to see it, nope.

And what's wrong with my sentences, anyway?  Heck, I'm not even sure which "first sentance" you're referring to, lol.

[Xilizhra]

Uh, nope, wouldn't kill my kids. But I would die for them. Who do you think it's easier for me to relate to?

The one who did try to kill her (maybe)?

I've already disagreed with you about the harm done. There is no hunky-dory ending to Merrill's story; lots of people were hurt. You're saying it has nothing at all to do with Merrill's choice-making, and I don't agree with you, for reasons I've repeated several times. I end my story telling Merrill she can continue seeking Elven history in numerous ways aside from the Mirror and she admits she'd never really thought of that; which, to me, is telling.

You're welcome to stop responding. Until then... people were hurt in Merrill's story, but none of them through Merrill's actions. They were all due to fear of Merrill, or hatred of her, or the manipulations of Marethari that caused both (which she admitted to doing), or possibly whatever motives Marethari had that would make her attractive to a pride demon.

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

Uh, nope, wouldn't kill my kids. But I would die for them. Who do you think it's easier for me to relate to?

The one who did try to kill her (maybe)?

I've already disagreed with you about the harm done. There is no hunky-dory ending to Merrill's story; lots of people were hurt. You're saying it has nothing at all to do with Merrill's choice-making, and I don't agree with you, for reasons I've repeated several times. I end my story telling Merrill she can continue seeking Elven history in numerous ways aside from the Mirror and she admits she'd never really thought of that; which, to me, is telling.

You're welcome to stop responding. Until then... people were hurt in Merrill's story, but none of them through Merrill's actions. They were all due to fear of Merrill, or hatred of her, or the manipulations of Marethari that caused both (which she admitted to doing), or possibly whatever motives Marethari had that would make her attractive to a pride demon.

Her, who?  Who're you talking about, trying to be kill who, I mean?  

Anyway.

People were hurt exactly through Merrill's actions, actually.  Had she not acted as she did, there would've been nothing to fear and, thus, no harm.  Mind you, the Dalish (and everyone) have every reason in the world to fear blood magic and demonic possession; there are plenty of instances where violent rampages and terrible circumstances prove there's plenty to fear from such chances and possibilities.  It's a Keeper's responsibility to "remember" such things and direct the Clan accordingly. 

Redcliffe comes to mind, just for one.  So does the Brecelian Forest, with all its sundry spirits inhabiting rampaging trees and werewolves attacking Dalish.  Just seems most people in Thedas have experience enough to say it's not particularly wise to invite demons into your life using blood magic; bad stuff normally follows.

History and lore teaches over and over it's best and wise to avoid blood magic and demons, anyway. Merrill says she appreciates the value of history and lore, then acts in reckless disregard for its teachings.  Stupid, that.

[Xilizhra]

Her, who? Who're you talking about, trying to be kill who, I mean?

Marethari killing Merrill.

People were hurt exactly through Merrill's actions, actually. Had she not acted as she did, there would've been nothing to fear and, thus, no harm. Mind you, the Dalish (and everyone) have every reason in the world to fear blood magic and demonic possession; there are plenty of instances where violent rampages and terrible circumstances prove there's plenty to fear from such chances and possibilities. It's a Keeper's responsibility to "remember" such things and direct the Clan accordingly.

There's nothing to fear from homosexuality either, but look how that goes; manipulated into being an object of fear by those in power, often enough. Which is exactly what Marethari did with the Eluvian, especially after Merrill had cleansed it. With blood magic. And Marethari's propaganda was directly responsible for Pol's death.

Redcliffe comes to mind, just for one. So does the Brecelian Forest, with all its sundry spirits inhabiting rampaging trees and werewolves attacking Dalish. Just seems most people in Thedas have experience enough to say it's not particularly wise to invite demons into your life using blood magic; bad stuff normally follows.

There was no blood magic in Redcliffe, and no magic at all in the Forest; that was a thinning of the Veil from the wars fought there. The only time I can think of demons actually being called with blood magic was in Warden's Keep, and it didn't change the outcome of the battle for the Wardens.

History and lore teaches over and over it's best and wise to avoid blood magic and demons, anyway. Merrill says she appreciates the value of history and lore, then acts in reckless disregard for its teachings. Stupid, that.

Except the use of the Joining to create Grey Wardens, unless you like Blights. And Avernus' refinement of it to stave off the Calling. And... well, cleansing the Eluvian.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

^ The Joining counts as Blood Magic? Or even Magic? It can be performed without a Mage. I thought it's just like how a Warrior drinks Dragonblood to become a Reaver.

It is, according to Gaider. And while becoming a Reaver just requires downing the blood, the Joining ritual needs lyrium and Archdemon blood, magically prepared.

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

Her, who? Who're you talking about, trying to be kill who, I mean?

Marethari killing Merrill.

People were hurt exactly through Merrill's actions, actually. Had she not acted as she did, there would've been nothing to fear and, thus, no harm. Mind you, the Dalish (and everyone) have every reason in the world to fear blood magic and demonic possession; there are plenty of instances where violent rampages and terrible circumstances prove there's plenty to fear from such chances and possibilities. It's a Keeper's responsibility to "remember" such things and direct the Clan accordingly.

There's nothing to fear from homosexuality either, but look how that goes; manipulated into being an object of fear by those in power, often enough. Which is exactly what Marethari did with the Eluvian, especially after Merrill had cleansed it. With blood magic. And Marethari's propaganda was directly responsible for Pol's death.

Redcliffe comes to mind, just for one. So does the Brecelian Forest, with all its sundry spirits inhabiting rampaging trees and werewolves attacking Dalish. Just seems most people in Thedas have experience enough to say it's not particularly wise to invite demons into your life using blood magic; bad stuff normally follows.

There was no blood magic in Redcliffe, and no magic at all in the Forest; that was a thinning of the Veil from the wars fought there. The only time I can think of demons actually being called with blood magic was in Warden's Keep, and it didn't change the outcome of the battle for the Wardens.

History and lore teaches over and over it's best and wise to avoid blood magic and demons, anyway. Merrill says she appreciates the value of history and lore, then acts in reckless disregard for its teachings. Stupid, that.

Except the use of the Joining to create Grey Wardens, unless you like Blights. And Avernus' refinement of it to stave off the Calling. And... well, cleansing the Eluvian.

Ya lost me.  Marethari never tries to kill Merrill.  That oh-so-helpful demon Merrill trusted enough to visit repeatedly does try to kill Merrill, however. 

Which highlights WHY demonic interaction is worth fearing.  Examples of possessed people are described throughout Dalish lore and myth; with Merrill herself indicating Clans hunt down possessed Keepers when they're overtaken by demons.  She knew better and did as she wanted, regardless, then blamed those around her for being afraid.  But their fear isn't the problem, they should be afraid.

As for your examples:
(1)  The Wardens admit they do "whatever it takes".  They never say the Joining is "good".  They warn against recruitment, in fact, and choose their recruits very very carefully.  "It's not a cure but a calling."  Duncan says, "The Joining is dangerous."  Apparently, they regard it as it should be regarded -- dangerous as any magic is dangerous and to be treated accordingly.
(2) Make sure to tell those Wardens Avernus experimented on with blades until they were dead how harmless his blood magic proved to be.
(3)  I don't believe the Eluvian was harmless, either, for reasons already described.

[Xilizhra]

Ya lost me. Marethari never tries to kill Merrill. That oh-so-helpful demon Merrill trusted enough to visit repeatedly does try to kill Merrill, however.

Well, a demon tries to kill Merrill. We only have the demon's own word that it was the same one, though.

Which highlights WHY demonic interaction is worth fearing. Examples of possessed people are described throughout Dalish lore and myth; with Merrill herself indicating Clans hunt down possessed Keepers when they're overtaken by demons. She knew better and did as she wanted, regardless, then blamed those around her for being afraid. But their fear isn't the problem, they should be afraid.

Yes, afraid of someone who vaguely associates with demons (or did, once, with no harm done, as the potential maybe possession hasn't happened yet) should be more frightening than a spear-you-to-death construct. Good plan.

(1) The Wardens admit they do "whatever it takes". They never say the Joining is "good". They warn against recruitment, in fact, and choose their recruits very very carefully. "It's not a cure but a calling." Duncan says, "The Joining is dangerous." Apparently, they regard it as it should be regarded -- dangerous as any magic is dangerous and to be treated accordingly.

Yes, but they don't want to stop the Joining period. It's dangerous, but also vitally important.

(2) Make sure to tell those Wardens Avernus experimented on with blades until they were dead how harmless his blood magic proved to be.

Avernus' choice, not an inherent property of blood magic.

(3) I don't believe the Eluvian was harmless, either, for reasons already described.

And I believe only reactions to the Eluvian did harm.

[General User]

Just to put in my own two cents, I have to say that calling Sebastian single minded is way off base. All throughout the game he is trying to decide if he should fulfill is commitment to the Chantry, or his duty to his family. The whole conflict of his character is that he is of two minds.

And I also agree with phyreblade74 that Merrill is cute and stupid, in the reckless sense of the word. Merrill is a tragic figure, her obsession and hubris led to misery and heartbreak. It’s what makes her a good character.

Modifié par General User, 29 mai 2011 - 01:42 .