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[Mike 9987]

Honestly, i dont know why they didnt add an epic murder knife scene choice when he turns his back and walks away after the threat. i, for one, would never let somebody threaten so much destruction and WALK away. thats just me though.

Modifié par Mike 9987, 01 août 2011 - 06:52 .

[esoterican]

Religious zealotry is so not sexy. Do. Not. Want.

[casedawgz]

esoterican wrote...

Religious zealotry is so not sexy. Do. Not. Want.

Hearing that accent and then finding out what he's actually like is a little bit like seeing the Mona Lisa taking a ****** behind an alley.

[Ryoufu]

can someone please give me an instance where sebastian was forcing the teaching the chantry down on other people?perhaps a dialogue? I happen to like sebastian but am curious about all the seb hate

[casedawgz]

Well, one of the ambient lines as you approach the Dalish camp with him in your party is akin to "Ah, a whole nest full of potential converts!"

[john-in-france]

Whether Sebastian rubs you up the wrong way, really depends on your temperament and attitudes to life.

To some of us what he says and does is perfectly acceptable. I acted on my own moral compass which said that Anders had betrayed my trust and had murdered everyone in that Chantry. I am an ex-soldier (real life), and soft targets used by terrorists are not acceptable to me - he signed his own death sentence by that action. Though personally I'd have chopped his head off.

Sebastian doesn't preach, he does state his beliefs and tries to comfort others in their grief. Notably Hawke, Aveline and Fenris. He also advocates peace generally. The Chant (have you actually read it?) is all about redemption and the fight against evil.

The Chantry scene was a deal breaker for Sebastian, it would be for me too. In Origins it was Alistair and Loghain.

If you'd like a DLC just to kill someone perhaps you are getting too involved in a game.

[Ryoufu]

john-in-france wrote...

Whether Sebastian rubs you up the wrong way, really depends on your temperament and attitudes to life.

To some of us what he says and does is perfectly acceptable. I acted on my own moral compass which said that Anders had betrayed my trust and had murdered everyone in that Chantry. I am an ex-soldier (real life), and soft targets used by terrorists are not acceptable to me - he signed his own death sentence by that action. Though personally I'd have chopped his head off.

Sebastian doesn't preach, he does state his beliefs and tries to comfort others in their grief. Notably Hawke, Aveline and Fenris. He also advocates peace generally. The Chant (have you actually read it?) is all about redemption and the fight against evil.

The Chantry scene was a deal breaker for Sebastian, it would be for me too. In Origins it was Alistair and Loghain.

If you'd like a DLC just to kill someone perhaps you are getting too involved in a game.

This is exactly my impression on sebastian!well put;)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'd argue that the Chantry isn't a soft target, that it was an assassination with collateral damage, no different than killing a political figure who also commanded a military order... but doing so with an airstrike that also incurred civilian casualties. Bad, but if we executed every soldier who incurred civilian casualties while destroying a high-priority target, we'd have to have thousands and thousands of trials. Yes, Anders isn't a soldier, he's like a member of the French underground. I'm thinking of the ending of Inglorious Basterds... that's basically what Anders did, only without the military authorization to do so.

And I've read all of the Chant, including the bit about Shartan... oh wait. Maybe you'll have to execute me now, because I acknowledged the part of the Chant the Chantry declared heretical so they could declare a holy war and establish an international system of apartheid. The Chant itself may once have been about fighting evil, but the Chantry has deleted the parts that it called inconvenient and reinterpreted the rest. Sebastian doesn't think about this, or care... and that's the problem.

I don't hate Seb, but he doesn't THINK about anything. He's incredibly privileged, and he never acknowledges it... to him, his suffering when he was sent to the chantry is equal to that of an elf in an alienage, or a mage being imprisoned for life. When something bad happens, it's all part of the Maker's plan. When something good happens, it's a gift from the maker.

The thing is, by that logic, the Chantry explosion is all part of the Maker's plan. Perhaps the maker was upset at all those mages being oppressed, and decided the Chantry explosion had to happen in order to prevent it from continuing.

My favorite Sebastian fic has him actually thinking about things, talking to Anders and putting his money where his mouth is... working to make the Chantry the actual force for good that he believes it is. It doesn't work, of course, but if he'd put in the effort, I could like him a bit more. I'd like to believe that if Sebastian knew of the abuses happening in the Circle, he'd actually try to work on them, but I see no evidence to that effect.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 03 août 2011 - 09:24 .

[rak72]

Anders & Fennris are BY FAR more preachy than Seb. Blah blah bals, oppressed mages. Blah blah blah, mages suck. Seb doesn't force his beliefs down anyone's throat, he just states what the maker has to offer and lets people make up their own minds. Unlike the Unibomber who tries to trick you into becoming a fellow terrorist.

[john-in-france]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'd argue that the Chantry isn't a soft target, that it was an assassination with collateral damage, no different than killing a political figure who also commanded a military order... but doing so with an airstrike that also incurred civilian casualties. Bad, if we executed every soldier who incurred civilian casualties while destroying a high-priority target, we'd have to have thousands and thousands of trials. Yes, Anders isn't a soldier, he's like a member of the French underground. I'm thinking of the ending of Inglorious Basterds... that's basically what Anders did, only without the military authorization to do so.

And I've read all of the Chant, including the bit about Shartan... oh wait. Maybe you'll have to execute me now, because I acknowledged the part of the Chant the Chantry declared heretical so they could declare a holy war and establish an international system of apartheid. The Chant itself may once have been about fighting evil, but the Chantry has deleted the parts that it called inconvenient and reinterpreted the rest. Sebastian doesn't think about this, or care... and that's the problem.

I don't hate Seb, but he doesn't THINK about anything. He's incredibly privileged, and he never acknowledges it... to him, his suffering when he was sent to the chantry is equal to that of an elf in an alienage, or a mage being imprisoned for life. When something bad happens, it's all part of the Maker's plan. When something good happens, it's a gift from the maker.

The thing is, by that logic, the Chantry explosion is all part of the Maker's plan. Perhaps the maker was upset at all those mages being oppressed, and decided the Chantry explosion had to happen in order to prevent it from continuing.

My favorite Sebastian fic has him actually thinking about things, talking to Anders and putting his money where his mouth is... working to make the Chantry the actual force for good that he believes it is. It doesn't work, of course, but if he'd put in the effort, I could like him a bit more. I'd like to believe that if Sebastian knew of the abuses happening in the Circle, he'd actually try to work on them, but I see no evidence to that effect.

Maybe the Maker wanted an Exalted March to wipe all of those Blood Mages off the face of Thedas

Anders does not target the Chantry because Elthina is the titular head of the Templar in the Free Marches, but because she advocated peace between the two groups. He even says so. Basically the Chantry strike was a declaration of war, similar to Pearl Harbour during WW2 for the Americans, but worse since the people targeted were civilians. Now if he'd blown up Meredith's office I think we'd all be clapping.

None of the characters really think about anything in the game, we project our thoughts onto them. That is why so many people are playing different DA2 games in their head.

I am resisting the temptation to go for the jugular over your first paragraph. Nothing is gained from flaming. Though I do believe that you meant the French Resistance in WW2. At the time they were at war.

Love or Hate Sebastian, he suffers from his storyline being snafued by Bioware for quick release, it would be interesting to have seen the real Sebastian Vael.

[Wulfram]

@john-in-france I think it's a little bit of an exaggeration to say that Sebastian doesn't preach. He doesn't do it excessively, but there is his "Have you heard the Chant of Light" conversation with Merrill, for example.

@CulturalGeekGirl If Anders just wanted Elthina dead, there were easier ways.
Like "Hey, Grand Cleric" *ZAP*

I also think many religions would declare holy war when a bunch of heathens threatened, and even sacked, the home of their faith. And mentioning the dissonant verses clearly isn't a capital offence, since some priests in DA:O will discuss it quite freely.

[esoterican]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't hate Seb, but he doesn't THINK about anything. He's incredibly privileged, and he never acknowledges it... to him, his suffering when he was sent to the chantry is equal to that of an elf in an alienage, or a mage being imprisoned for life. When something bad happens, it's all part of the Maker's plan. When something good happens, it's a gift from the maker.

The thing is, by that logic, the Chantry explosion is all part of the Maker's plan. Perhaps the maker was upset at all those mages being oppressed, and decided the Chantry explosion had to happen in order to prevent it from continuing.

This. Totally. It's all too convenient, Sebastian! I don't hate the guy, but to me he seemed to experience the least amount of growth over time of all the companions. Perhaps the result of rushed writing? We'll never know...

Modifié par esoterican, 03 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[Ryzaki]

...Seb's actually not that preachy. There are other party members who try to shove their beliefs down others throats on a far more constant basis.

[FieryDove]

Mike 9987 wrote...

Honestly, i dont know why they didnt add an epic murder knife scene choice when he turns his back and walks away after the threat. i, for one, would never let somebody threaten so much destruction and WALK away. thats just me though.

I am guessing because...He will be back. Plot armor at its finest.

[john-in-france]

LOL Seb as Terminator!

[esoterican]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Seb's actually not that preachy. There are other party members who try to shove their beliefs down others throats on a far more constant basis.

Oh, I agree. I am finding myself completely fed up with several of my "preachier" companions on my last couple of playthroughs. So I've been leaving them behind whenever possible and hitting the road with my buds Varric, Izzy, and Aveline, and avoiding romances for a change of pace.

Modifié par esoterican, 03 août 2011 - 10:20 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Anders doesn't say he is killing Elthina because she is trying to keep peace. He says there can be no peace, which is not exactly the same thing. The last seven years of "peace" in Kirkwall has resulted in one thing: more oppression for mages. I think he's not saying he will not allow there to be peace, but rather that true peace is impossible: even with Elthina claiming to keep the "peace," the Chantry's silent war on mages continues.

"The Circle has failed us Orsino, even you should be able to see that.
The time has come to act. There can be no half measures. There can be no turning back.
There can be no peace."

He kills Elthina because the compromise she offers, the peace she offers, are hollow lies. I don't think Elthina is lying on purpose, but she claims to want to maintain a balance... as Meredith steadily gains power, and the mages steadily lose it. She isn't actually maintaining balance, she's just giving lip service to the idea and ignoring the resulting decline. Elthina had to die because what she called peace was actually a slow death, with mages losing more and more freedom and the situation for them degrading daily. Her "compromises" always favored the status quo, and her "peace" did not involve preventing Templars from murdering or tranquiling mages. Words are wind. Elthina's peace was the peace of apartheid, imprisonment, tranquility and death. That's no true peace. There can be no peace as long as people like Elthina enable people like Meredith.

Wulfram wrote...

@CulturalGeekGirl If Anders just wanted Elthina dead, there were easier ways.
Like "Hey, Grand Cleric" *ZAP*

I also think many religions would declare holy war when a bunch of heathens threatened, and even sacked, the home of their faith. And mentioning the dissonant verses clearly isn't a capital offence, since some priests in DA:O will discuss it quite freely.

As for the tactical purpose of the Chantry explosion, here's my traditional explanation: 

My belief is that Anders decision boiled down to this: with the ROA request off to the Divine, the mages' lives hang on the mercy of the Chantry... something Anders has little faith in, for good cause. If a messenger comes back with consent, Meredith will just Annul everyone in the circle... everyone, including Beth if she's there. The only way to prevent that is to involve someone... Hawke. The only way to involve Hawke is to ensure that Hawke is present when the Right is called. The only way to do that is to do something that will cause Meredith to publicly invoke the Right.

Then there's Anders' other goal, which is to send up a signal flare that sheds light on what happened in Kirkwall, and has a chance of sparking a mage revolution. So two birds, one stone: Kill Elthina (who is both a symbol of the Chantry's callousness and Meredith's temporary road block), which ensures Hawke is present to interfere with the ROA Meredith will then call.

I don't think the point of the Chantry bomb was to kill as many people as possible, it was just to make sure that Elthina dies visibly, by magic, at a time when he knows that Hawke and Meredith are together. That way, if he's right and Meredith calls the ROA, then Hawke can interfere.

And here's the thing... even if Hawke sides with the Templars, the situation is (almost always) still better than it would have been if a runner had come back with the ROA OK and Meredith had just gone in and done it herself. You can choose to spare some mages and Bethany, if she's there. So if you assume that ROA will go through (which Anders has no reason not to assume,) Anders still potentially saved some mages by blowing up the Chantry.

I understand executing Anders. He himself admits that doing so is just. I also understand Sebastian's rage at the end... my Warden would have felt the same if someone had killed Alistair in DA:O. But I am unwilling to label the Chantry as a civilian target: if you control an international military force that is the de-facto police force in most of the world as well as establishing an international system of apartheid that still exists today... you are a political or military target.

(As for the attack on the Dales, we do not know exactly what happened there. However, most historians seem to agree that it was a war that started as border skirmishes and turned into full-scale warfare... but it was originally simply a war between the Dales and Orlais. Only when they were losing their conventional territorial war did they decide to turn it into an Exalted march, because that was the only way they could gain the assistance of all of the other nations of Ferelden. It wasn't "heathens attempting to take over the seat of faith" so much as it was an ill-advised territorial war turned into a holy war when the territorial war seemed to be lost. And you can't possibly deny that they established a system of apartheid that remains today... and that apartheid is bad. If you're going to say that how the city elves current live is good... or no fault of the Chantry's... well... yeah.)

[nitefyre410]

I honestly don't hate Sebastian he reminds me of DA combination of Ezio and Nightcrawler. Two characters I like.

I honestly hope there some that peace can be made between him and Hawke. I understand him being upset he was very close to the Grand Cleric from what I have seen and Chantry was like his second family. So him wanting to tear Anders a new one is understandable - not going to let him do it but I understand.

[rak72]

I wonder how understanding Hawk would be of Anders terrorism if Mama Hawk was still alive and in the chantry lighting a candle for her dead husband when Anders went Al Quaida.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Seb's actually not that preachy. There are other party members who try to shove their beliefs down others throats on a far more constant basis.

This.

The only person I ever consider him 'preaching' to is Merrill. In the case of Fenris I think it was more of a theological discussion than preaching as Fenris seemed interested in the conversation.

In Anders' case, he just want to help Anders' obviously burdened mind in that one dialogue where he asked him if he needed to talk about what the Templars had done to him. In another he was not talking at all and Anders accused him of being judgmental. In which case, consider the source. Is there a single person save Varric that Anders hasn't either judged and/or thought was judging him at some point in time?

I don't argue that Sebastian is incredibly naive, but that makes sense considering his background. I think people are projecting their prejudices onto him because he's religious.

I don't even think he's a zealot any more than Merrill is an elven 'zealot', they both are very involved in their religions which, considering the (equivalent) time period, is understandable. Merrill even tries to explain a lot of things in terms of elven religion, and if you romance her for All That Remains and pick the dialogue where Hawke mentions the Maker, she will turn it around to be about her religion instead. That's just as pious as anything Sebastian has said, IMO. I don't hold it against Merrill because that's the culture she grew up with, of course she's going to relate things around her to the teachings of her culture and religion.

There's only one time Sebastian has said anything that truly irritated me and that was in the new DLC, during the Tethras quest.

RE: Seb's threat. What he said was based on shock, grief and rage. Anders killed a woman who was more like a mother to him than his own mother and then was protected by Hawke, who Sebastian considered a friend. If Hawke found out Anders had been responsible for Leandra's death right after seeing her mutilated corpse, an aggressive Hawke would have said something similarly rash. I think we can't know if he meant it until a DLC or sequel, but it's my opinion those were words of hurt and grief, not an actual threat.

I think there should have been a companion dialogue option to make Sebastian kill Anders instead. But since we weren't given that chance, you can't call him a coward for not doing it himself (as I've seen some people do). It's the fault of the game for not making that an option. There's no way he could have just killed him regardless of Hawke's input, because then Anders romancers would hate him even more. Game mechanics were at fault, not Sebastian.

RE: Turning in the mages. Consider it from his point of view. Merrill and Anders aren't just apostates, they're a blood mage and an abomination. They're hardly great examples of poor victim mages who need to be protected from the Templars. By the end of the game they're responsible (whether directly or indirectly) for the deaths of the dalish keeper, possibly the entire dalish clan and everyone in the Chantry, not to mention all of the deaths resulting from the post-Chantrysplosion conflict; deaths that would have been avoided had they been turned in. Even then he seemed conflicted by the decision on whether or not to turn them in, as a devout Andrastian he was having to choose between the tenets of his faith and his loyalty to Hawke. And yet, he never did turn them in.

Is Sebastian perfect? Obviously not.  But he doesn't deserve the hate he gets, IMO. He's no worse than the rest of our assorted band of judges, hypocrites and crazies.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 03 août 2011 - 10:42 .

[FieryDove]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Anders doesn't say he is killing Elthina because she is trying to keep peace. He says there can be no peace, which is not exactly the same thing. The last seven years of "peace" in Kirkwall has resulted in one thing: more oppression for mages. I think he's not saying he will not allow there to be peace, but rather that true peace is impossible: even with Elthina claiming to keep the "peace," the Chantry's silent war on mages continues.

"The Circle has failed us Orsino, even you should be able to see that.
The time has come to act. There can be no half measures. There can be no turning back.
There can be no peace."

He kills Elthina because the compromise she offers, the peace she offers, are hollow lies. I don't think Elthina is lying on purpose, but she claims to want to maintain a balance... as Meredith steadily gains power, and the mages steadily lose it. She isn't actually maintaining balance, she's just giving lip service to the idea and ignoring the resulting decline. Elthina had to die because what she called peace was actually a slow death, with mages losing more and more freedom and the situation for them degrading daily. Her "compromises" always favored the status quo, and her "peace" did not involve preventing Templars from murdering or tranquiling mages. Words are wind. Elthina's peace was the peace of apartheid, imprisonment, tranquility and death. That's no true peace. There can be no peace as long as people like Elthina enable people like Meredith.

(Snip)

I agree with everything you said.

CGG=Awesome

[nitefyre410]

rak72 wrote...

I wonder how understanding Hawk would be of Anders terrorism if Mama Hawk was still alive and in the chantry lighting a candle for her dead husband when Anders went Al Quaida. Uni-bomber

 


Fixed  that sense Al Quaida  members tend to blow themselves  and  the building up. 


Considering  that my Hawke  Bethany  was in the circle  Anders would be the least of his worries  considering that he  has an Idol possessed Templar ready to kill the last family member he has left.

[Melca36]

I'd have far more respect for Seb if he had the balls to reclaim his family's lands.

[cmessaz]

No offense to his fans, but Sebastian is just more XP for me and a major headache from the headdesk I do during the last straw. Thats about it.