219 réponses à ce sujet

[Melca36]

I think my issue with Sebastian is to me he reminds of the Born Again types in the real world.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Melca36 wrote...

I'd have far more respect for Seb if he had the balls to reclaim his family's lands.

If you rival him, he says he's going to try it. The game just ends before we can tell how that ends up.

[Melca36]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I'd have far more respect for Seb if he had the balls to reclaim his family's lands.

If you rival him, he says he's going to try it. The game just ends before we can tell how that ends up.

I have rivaled him because its the only way I can remotely tolerate him.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'd have more respect for all the companions if they were a bit more bloody reasonable.

I've been replaying origin, and all the sniping and disagreements there always seems reasonable. I get where Morrigan is coming from, and I also get where Alistair is coming from. I'm pretty much cool with everyone but Leliana, and even she wasn't that bad.

Seb, Fenris, and, yes, Anders all frustrate me. Pretty much everyone but Varric does, honestly. You've had seven bloody years to argue, maybe consider conceding a point occasionally? Arg. And there are so many points to be conceded.

Thing is, I agree with Anders, but he does a ****** poor job of delivering his own arguments. I just want to push him aside every time he says anything and say "Shut up, you're not helping." That's basically what I do all the time on the Bioware boards. To Seb, I want to say "Look, the Chantry has and will continue to do a lot of eff'd up stuff! If you truly love Andraste, you'll want to see that such horrific acts are no longer done in her name!" Instead I just sigh and shake my fist mutely at my screen.

I know that a lot of people think the companions in DA2 are stronger than the ones in DA:O, and I don't disagree... but I think they could be just as strong without being so bloodily stubbornly stupid about so many things.

[naledgeborn]

I see lots of people defending a Chantry that utilizes assassins to do it's dirty work of "maintaining peace and stability". Dragon Age's Chantry is more of a political organization than an organized religion much like the RCC 700 years ago. Anders did go overboard though. Too messy, too much collateral damage. I don't kill him if he's a friend. I tell him to get the Hell out of Dodge instead, and clean up his mess.

[Melca36]

naledgeborn wrote...

I see lots of people defending a Chantry that utilizes assassins to do it's dirty work of "maintaining peace and stability". Dragon Age's Chantry is more of a political organization than an organized religion much like the RCC 700 years ago. Anders did go overboard though. Too messy, too much collateral damage. I don't kill him if he's a friend. I tell him to get the Hell out of Dodge instead, and clean up his mess.

Don't worry I have a feeling the Chantry fans are going to be in for a HUGE shock during DA:3.

[john-in-france]

Ahhhh, Mages vs Templar thread, masquerading as Sebastian vs Anders.

I promised to stop feeding the abominations, so we shall just have to agree to differ.

Orsino: Why would you do such a thing?
Anders: I have removed the chance of compromise, because there can be no compromise.

[john-in-france]

Melca36 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I see lots of people defending a Chantry that utilizes assassins to do it's dirty work of "maintaining peace and stability". Dragon Age's Chantry is more of a political organization than an organized religion much like the RCC 700 years ago. Anders did go overboard though. Too messy, too much collateral damage. I don't kill him if he's a friend. I tell him to get the Hell out of Dodge instead, and clean up his mess.

Don't worry I have a feeling the Chantry fans are going to be in for a HUGE shock during DA:3.

Quite possibly, until then I remain Vigilant!

I think the Mage supporters may be in for a shock too if Legacy is anything to go by.

[Sifr]

Personally, I have no problem with Sebastian's faith, as Hawke's dialogue often expresses that he's (probably an non-secular) Andrastian himself, I think the thing that gets on people's goat is that Sebastian as a character voices the side of a system that clearly...

Does. Not. Work.

The main problem with the Chantry is that it indoctrinates its zealots into a dogmatic mindset that never allows for any other interpretation of the message itself, which seems often to be that which is mandated by the current Divine.

Take for instance, the elven leader Shartan, who's Canticles were [REDACTED] from the Chant of Light when the Chantry decided to ignore the fact that the Elves had been a vital ally of Andraste and were simply trying to rebuild their homeland in the Dales, only to lead an Exalted March on them for being possible subversives due to their belief in the Creators..

Also the possible ending of Origins, where an Exalted March is mentioned as being considered against Orzammar for their Ancestor worship.

We see from the example of Petrice, how bigotry and intolerant some of the Chantry are against the Qunari, which is what is being mostly picked up by the masses.

So, in short, Sebastian's faith is completely fine. Its not exactly his fault that the organisation that his faith is being dictated by is in dire need of a serious overhaul.

[Wulfram]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Take for instance, the elven leader Shartan, who's Canticles were [REDACTED] from the Chant of Light when the Chantry decided to ignore the fact that the Elves had been a vital ally of Andraste and were simply trying to rebuild their homeland in the Dales, only to lead an Exalted March on them for being possible subversives due to their belief in the Creators..

The Exalted March was only called in response to the Dalish capturing Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux - the capital of both the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry.  The Dalish in fact sacked Val Royeaux before they were overwhelmed.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 août 2011 - 12:58 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Haven't read through the entire thread, but it's clear that Sebastian is the new "Wynne." I keep hearing that word....that dreaded word "PREACHY." It's the word of doom....

[Carmen_Willow]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Seb's actually not that preachy. There are other party members who try to shove their beliefs down others throats on a far more constant basis.

This.

The only person I ever consider him 'preaching' to is Merrill. In the case of Fenris I think it was more of a theological discussion than preaching as Fenris seemed interested in the conversation.

In Anders' case, he just want to help Anders' obviously burdened mind in that one dialogue where he asked him if he needed to talk about what the Templars had done to him. In another he was not talking at all and Anders accused him of being judgmental. In which case, consider the source. Is there a single person save Varric that Anders hasn't either judged and/or thought was judging him at some point in time?

I don't argue that Sebastian is incredibly naive, but that makes sense considering his background. I think people are projecting their prejudices onto him because he's religious.

I don't even think he's a zealot any more than Merrill is an elven 'zealot', they both are very involved in their religions which, considering the (equivalent) time period, is understandable. Merrill even tries to explain a lot of things in terms of elven religion, and if you romance her for All That Remains and pick the dialogue where Hawke mentions the Maker, she will turn it around to be about her religion instead. That's just as pious as anything Sebastian has said, IMO. I don't hold it against Merrill because that's the culture she grew up with, of course she's going to relate things around her to the teachings of her culture and religion.

There's only one time Sebastian has said anything that truly irritated me and that was in the new DLC, during the Tethras quest.

RE: Seb's threat. What he said was based on shock, grief and rage. Anders killed a woman who was more like a mother to him than his own mother and then was protected by Hawke, who Sebastian considered a friend. If Hawke found out Anders had been responsible for Leandra's death right after seeing her mutilated corpse, an aggressive Hawke would have said something similarly rash. I think we can't know if he meant it until a DLC or sequel, but it's my opinion those were words of hurt and grief, not an actual threat.

I think there should have been a companion dialogue option to make Sebastian kill Anders instead. But since we weren't given that chance, you can't call him a coward for not doing it himself (as I've seen some people do). It's the fault of the game for not making that an option. There's no way he could have just killed him regardless of Hawke's input, because then Anders romancers would hate him even more. Game mechanics were at fault, not Sebastian.

RE: Turning in the mages. Consider it from his point of view. Merrill and Anders aren't just apostates, they're a blood mage and an abomination. They're hardly great examples of poor victim mages who need to be protected from the Templars. By the end of the game they're responsible (whether directly or indirectly) for the deaths of the dalish keeper, possibly the entire dalish clan and everyone in the Chantry, not to mention all of the deaths resulting from the post-Chantrysplosion conflict; deaths that would have been avoided had they been turned in. Even then he seemed conflicted by the decision on whether or not to turn them in, as a devout Andrastian he was having to choose between the tenets of his faith and his loyalty to Hawke. And yet, he never did turn them in.

Is Sebastian perfect? Obviously not.  But he doesn't deserve the hate he gets, IMO. He's no worse than the rest of our assorted band of judges, hypocrites and crazies.

Very well said.  I find Seb a little wearing at times, but he is essentially a good guy.  If he were not, he would have loved Meredith's "Kill them all and let the Maker sort it out," solution. 

[FieryDove]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

In the case of Fenris I think it was more of a theological discussion than preaching as Fenris seemed interested in the conversation.

See angsty porcupine - preach carefully.

Even then he seemed conflicted by the decision on whether or not to turn them in, as a devout Andrastian he was having to choose between the tenets of his faith and his loyalty to Hawke. And yet, he never did turn them in.

I'm sure he did try to turn them in. He most likely went to Cullen just as some Hawke's did. Which resulted to the same *action/reaction/result* as the grand cleric showed over all those years. In others words zip. Not Seb's fault of course.

RE: Seb's threat. What he said was based on shock, grief and rage. Anders killed a woman who was more like a mother to him than his own mother and then was protected by Hawke, who Sebastian considered a friend.

I don't get this. Hawke protects the GC? When? The chantry protects itself. Seekers/Templar guards and bodyguards and so on.

"I can't tell if its certainty you have or blindness."

Blindness all the way.

I would have liked Seb much better if the blindness wasn't so profound in his character. Chantry can do no wrong, GC can do no wrong on and on. I had hoped taking him around to see how things really are would open his eyes. Not a chance sadly.

This doesn't even factor in with the threats made grief striken or not. He can become what he hates the most so easily. It is my duty/right to get revenge (No matter who else is hurt) for my family. It is my duty/right to get revenge (No matter who else is hurt) on Anders. The desire demon saw this I'm sure. Elthina did have him pegged correctly. He is fickle and most likely remains that way...forever.

I really wanted to like him. But alas.

Maybe a rival Seb is better. I should try it.

[dragonflight288]

I rivaled Sebastian, and he grows to believe that the ends justify the means, that if some people are hurt but a greater good is achieved, all is well. He says he will return to Starkhaven as soon as the situation with the mages and the templars is resolved, because he wants to protect the Grand Cleric from a potential war or exalted march.

I don't get this. Hawke protects the GC? When? The chantry protects itself. Seekers/Templar guards and bodyguards and so on.

I think that means Hawke was protecting Anders from punishment for killing the Grand Cleric.

[Jugo616]

I dont remember the exact text, but there was one banter dialoue of Seb and Fenris when Fenris asked why Maker allowed a little boy to sacrifised for a blood magic ritual which Fenris master used to entertain guests in a party and then Seb told him that it was because Maker wanted Fenris to see that so he (Fenris) would prevent this from ever happening again.

if you can like someone after such statement then you are a sick sick person.

[Jugo616]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Haven't read through the entire thread, but it's clear that Sebastian is the new "Wynne." I keep hearing that word....that dreaded word "PREACHY." It's the word of doom....

Sebastian is much worse then Wynne.

[TexasToast712]

I wouldnt mess with Sebastian. His armor is the Maker's light which is apparently very shiny according to Merrill. I dont want to get blinded.

[nos_astra]

Jugo616 wrote...
I dont remember the exact text, but there was one banter dialoue of Seb and Fenris when Fenris asked why Maker allowed a little boy to sacrifised for a blood magic ritual which Fenris master used to entertain guests in a party and then Seb told him that it was because Maker wanted Fenris to see that so he (Fenris) would prevent this from ever happening again.

if you can like someone after such statement then you are a sick sick person.

What's wrong with the statement? He basically says it's all a part of God's (the Maker's) plan. Many people console themselves and others this way. Something terrible happened, but maybe something good might come of it and the death and suffering wasn't meaningless.

[Ryzaki]

Jugo616 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Haven't read through the entire thread, but it's clear that Sebastian is the new "Wynne." I keep hearing that word....that dreaded word "PREACHY." It's the word of doom....

Sebastian is much worse then Wynne.

...Bull****. 

You play DAO again and say some bull**** like that. Wynne's 9000X more preachy than Seb. 

[Masako52]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Haven't read through the entire thread, but it's clear that Sebastian is the new "Wynne." I keep hearing that word....that dreaded word "PREACHY." It's the word of doom....

Sebastian is much worse then Wynne.

...Bull****. 

You play DAO again and say some bull**** like that. Wynne's 9000X more preachy than Seb. 

Umm... no. Wynne's "preaching" is not religious. She says so herself, she believes in the Maker to an extent but doesn't take the Chantry literally. Wynne IS wise and experienced. She has had a lifetime to learn and make mistakes, and all of her "preaching" is irreligious, but generally good advice.

Basically, Seb is religious and had live a spoilt life. He doesn't really know what he's talking about besides "this book says so." Wynne is calm, collected and rational, and compassionate. She gives her advice with good intentions.

Sebastian is annoying, agreed. I mean, sure, he's an interesting character but to me, not interesting enough to be an extra DLC - especially compared to Shale. Sebastian should have been part of the original game, and the secret character should've been someone more exotic and strange. like a female Qunari or something, lol. The only reason I keep Seb in my party is to listen to his Scottish accent. I'll be honest. haha.

[Sifr]

klarabella wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...
I dont remember the exact text, but there was one banter dialoue of Seb and Fenris when Fenris asked why Maker allowed a little boy to sacrifised for a blood magic ritual which Fenris master used to entertain guests in a party and then Seb told him that it was because Maker wanted Fenris to see that so he (Fenris) would prevent this from ever happening again.

if you can like someone after such statement then you are a sick sick person.

What's wrong with the statement? He basically says it's all a part of God's (the Maker's) plan. Many people console themselves and others this way. Something terrible happened, but maybe something good might come of it and the death and suffering wasn't meaningless.

I think the intent was to point out that you could argue the same about it being the Maker's Plan when Anders blew up the Chantry... and that it was all part of the Maker's Plan was clearly not Sebastian's reaction...

[Ryoufu]

If, hypothetically, we had a Qunari companion who was preachy, would anyone complain about converting to the Qun?

[Myusha]

Sebastian's nice, and doesn't shove his religion down your throat.
He lost his family once, Anders made him lose it again. You'd be angry too.
He's a bit of a wildfire at times, but he always wants to fight against evil. A bit like a puppy in some sense.

[Ryzaki]

Masako52 wrote...
Umm... no. Wynne's "preaching" is not religious. She says so herself, she believes in the Maker to an extent but doesn't take the Chantry literally. Wynne IS wise and experienced. She has had a lifetime to learn and make mistakes, and all of her "preaching" is irreligious, but generally good advice.

Basically, Seb is religious and had live a spoilt life. He doesn't really know what he's talking about besides "this book says so." Wynne is calm, collected and rational, and compassionate. She gives her advice with good intentions.

Sebastian is annoying, agreed. I mean, sure, he's an interesting character but to me, not interesting enough to be an extra DLC - especially compared to Shale. Sebastian should have been part of the original game, and the secret character should've been someone more exotic and strange. like a female Qunari or something, lol. The only reason I keep Seb in my party is to listen to his Scottish accent. I'll be honest. haha.

You must be jokig. Wynne's advice is good?  Are you serious? Were you listening to what was coming out of her mouth? Gems like "you must always put your duty ahead of everything else." is good advice? The woman. Or "OMG how dare you love X instead of focusing only on the blight!" before she realized she shoved her foot down her throat? The same woman who harases her student into running away andlater on tries to get him to go back to the oppressive circle despite him being happy where he is? The woman who screeches because ra forbid the warden be a bloodmage? (even if said bloodmage did her absolutely NO harm?) The woman who kept harping about the mage PC going back to the CT but didn't go back herself? The woman didn't even know anything about the Grey Wardens and acted like they were some noble order that didn't get the job done? Wise?  She was a fool, a hypocritical self righteous fool who had little life experience other than being in that tower.  

Oh noes Seb's religious. That is far more heinous than being a preachy and hypocritical old coot.  Whatever. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 août 2011 - 06:12 .

[Jugo616]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Haven't read through the entire thread, but it's clear that Sebastian is the new "Wynne." I keep hearing that word....that dreaded word "PREACHY." It's the word of doom....

Sebastian is much worse then Wynne.

...Bull****. 

You play DAO again and say some bull**** like that. Wynne's 9000X more preachy than Seb. 

I played DA:O quite reacently. I kinda like Wynne.