219 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Jugo616 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Haven't read through the entire thread, but it's clear that Sebastian is the new "Wynne." I keep hearing that word....that dreaded word "PREACHY." It's the word of doom....

Sebastian is much worse then Wynne.

...Bull****. 

You play DAO again and say some bull**** like that. Wynne's 9000X more preachy than Seb. 

I played DA:O quite reacently. I kinda like Wynne.

I kind of like her too. 

But you gotta  admit she's preachy. About the Grey Wardens, about what kind of person the Warden should be, about how the mage warden should help their "people" while she runs around free as a bird, about the Warden's relationships, about the Wardens decisions, about how the Warden thinks (ra forbid you don't think a Warden should bow and scrap towards the people!). <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 août 2011 - 07:44 .

[Jugo616]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Haven't read through the entire thread, but it's clear that Sebastian is the new "Wynne." I keep hearing that word....that dreaded word "PREACHY." It's the word of doom....

Sebastian is much worse then Wynne.

...Bull****. 

You play DAO again and say some bull**** like that. Wynne's 9000X more preachy than Seb. 

I played DA:O quite reacently. I kinda like Wynne.

I kind of like her too. 

But you gotta  admit she's preachy. About the Grey Wardens, about what kind of person the Warden should be, about how the mage warden should help their "people" while she runs around free as a bird, about the Warden's relationships, about the Wardens decisions, about how the Warden thinks (ra forbid you don't think a Warden should bow and scrap towards the people!). <_<

You must take into concideration the amount of lines caracters have in DA:O and DA2. DA:O allowed to talk with caracters anytime, while DA2 - only at scripted points/personal quests/banter. Wynne has much more lines then Sebastian and taken preach per line Sebastian tops Wynne.

Also Wynne didnt try to plot giving in my frieds to their enemies while my player caracter was standing a step away.
Then again, believe it or not I ended having more friendship then rivalry with Seb...

[Ryzaki]

Jugo616 wrote...
You must take into concideration the amount of lines caracters have in DA:O and DA2. DA:O allowed to talk with caracters anytime, while DA2 - only at scripted points/personal quests/banter. Wynne has much more lines then Sebastian and taken preach per line Sebastian tops Wynne.

Also Wynne didnt try to plot giving in my frieds to their enemies while my player caracter was standing a step away.
Then again, believe it or not I ended having more friendship then rivalry with Seb...

Nope instead she turns on you no matter how nice you are if you dare spill blood on the ashes and be a bloodmage (well that was taken out). She also tells the "darkspawn take you" if you're at -100 approval. And really preach per line? I'm not seeing all this preaching Seb supposedly does. Looks more like "OMG he's religious! Everything remotely religious must be preaching!!11" but YMMV. You want to think Seb is more preachy than Wynne go ahead. 

[Masako52]

Ryzaki wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
Umm... no. Wynne's "preaching" is not religious. She says so herself, she believes in the Maker to an extent but doesn't take the Chantry literally. Wynne IS wise and experienced. She has had a lifetime to learn and make mistakes, and all of her "preaching" is irreligious, but generally good advice.

Basically, Seb is religious and had live a spoilt life. He doesn't really know what he's talking about besides "this book says so." Wynne is calm, collected and rational, and compassionate. She gives her advice with good intentions.

Sebastian is annoying, agreed. I mean, sure, he's an interesting character but to me, not interesting enough to be an extra DLC - especially compared to Shale. Sebastian should have been part of the original game, and the secret character should've been someone more exotic and strange. like a female Qunari or something, lol. The only reason I keep Seb in my party is to listen to his Scottish accent. I'll be honest. haha.

You must be jokig. Wynne's advice is good?  Are you serious? Were you listening to what was coming out of her mouth? Gems like "you must always put your duty ahead of everything else." is good advice? The woman. Or "OMG how dare you love X instead of focusing only on the blight!" before she realized she shoved her foot down her throat? The same woman who harases her student into running away andlater on tries to get him to go back to the oppressive circle despite him being happy where he is? The woman who screeches because ra forbid the warden be a bloodmage? (even if said bloodmage did her absolutely NO harm?) The woman who kept harping about the mage PC going back to the CT but didn't go back herself? The woman didn't even know anything about the Grey Wardens and acted like they were some noble order that didn't get the job done? Wise?  She was a fool, a hypocritical self righteous fool who had little life experience other than being in that tower.  

Oh noes Seb's religious. That is far more heinous than being a preachy and hypocritical old coot.  Whatever. 

Sorry, I don't know what game you were playing, because it can't have been Origins. Wynne never "screeched." She worried about the Warden's relationship because she understood the severe possible consequences, and that a Warden's first duty should be to stop the Blight, not be with romantic interests. Later, anyway, she apologizes for that. She's motherly, giving comforting words to the Warden's insecurities if s/he presents any. The young elven student that she frightened off by being so strict happened when she was much younger and she recalls it as her biggest regret. As in, she made mistakes and learned from them. If Wynne is against blood magic, it's with good reason - not only because of the obvious dangers involved with demonic possession, but the reprecussions that can have on the Circle (and DID, what with the entire mage circle storyline - blood mages start killing everyone, demons are summoned, and the Templars come very near killing everyone with the annullment.) And how did she not know anything about the Grey Wardens? She DID - she's educated and knows their history and purpose. She's even grateful to you, thanking you for your sacrifice and bravery.

Seriously, you're boggling my mind right now, just in how utterly untrue your accusations against Wynne are. Even if you don't like her, you're not even using facts. You're distorting her entire character.

Sebastian is not a bad guy either, but he IS sheltered and DID live a spoiled life. He approaches the world's problems as solveable by the Chantry. When he knows NOTHING about living in poverty, being an elf or a slave, being a mage, etc. He approaches problems he sees as being "the Maker's plan" but his own problems are to be dealt with vengeance and violence.

He is an interesting character, don't get me wrong. And I think he means well. That doesn't mean he's wise, and he IS preachy.

[nos_astra]

Masako52 wrote...
Seriously, you're boggling my mind right now, just in how utterly untrue your accusations against Wynne are. Even if you don't like her, you're not even using facts. You're distorting her entire character.

Sebastian is not a bad guy either, but he IS sheltered and DID live a spoiled life. He approaches the world's problems as solveable by the Chantry. When he knows NOTHING about living in poverty, being an elf or a slave, being a mage, etc. He approaches problems he sees as being "the Maker's plan" but his own problems are to be dealt with vengeance and violence.

He is an interesting character, don't get me wrong. And I think he means well. That doesn't mean he's wise, and he IS preachy.

That's a very accurate description of Sebastian's problem. He's not wise, he's still young (well, if being in his thirties counts as young in Thedas) and all his experience has been that of a spoiled noble and a chantry brother, although the conversion from one the other must have been painful. "The Maker's plan" is exactly what he's trying to find in everything and also for himself. He is a very interesting character.

I also liked Wynne a lot and never understood why people dismiss her advice as being preachy. She may not be always right, but there is some wisdom in what she says.

I like them because they are so normal, products of the world they live in, unlike so many other companions in the DA-verse who are so over-the-top. I appreciate how they bring the actual Thedosian mindset into play.

[Ryzaki]

Masako52 wrote...
Sorry, I don't know what game you were playing, because it can't have been Origins. Wynne never "screeched." She worried about the Warden's relationship because she understood the severe possible consequences, and that a Warden's first duty should be to stop the Blight, not be with romantic interests. Later, anyway, she apologizes for that. She's motherly, giving comforting words to the Warden's insecurities if s/he presents any. The young elven student that she frightened off by being so strict happened when she was much younger and she recalls it as her biggest regret. As in, she made mistakes and learned from them. If Wynne is against blood magic, it's with good reason - not only because of the obvious dangers involved with demonic possession, but the reprecussions that can have on the Circle (and DID, what with the entire mage circle storyline - blood mages start killing everyone, demons are summoned, and the Templars come very near killing everyone with the annullment.) And how did she not know anything about the Grey Wardens? She DID - she's educated and knows their history and purpose. She's even grateful to you, thanking you for your sacrifice and bravery. 

Seriously, you're boggling my mind right now, just in how utterly untrue your accusations against Wynne are. Even if you don't like her, you're not even using facts. You're distorting her entire character.

Sebastian is not a bad guy either, but he IS sheltered and DID live a spoiled life. He approaches the world's problems as solveable by the Chantry. When he knows NOTHING about living in poverty, being an elf or a slave, being a mage, etc. He approaches problems he sees as being "the Maker's plan" but his own problems are to be dealt with vengeance and violence.

He is an interesting character, don't get me wrong. And I think he means well. That doesn't mean he's wise, and he IS preachy.

Wynne never screeched?  I guess I must've been imaging things when she snitched on my bloodmage while Irving and Gregoir tried to change the subject . And if she knew anything about the GreyWardens she'd know the same thing Alistair does "they do as they must." she wouldn't keep going and on about how much you should serve and be kind to others. And if you think the nicest thing to do to someone who is happy and satified is to encourage them to go back to the circle tower well..I can see why you have no issues with Wynne. 

Which might also be laughably ridculous depending on the warden. One of Wynne's "gems" "oh it's hard to accept our failings." when the CE says he/she could've run faster to save Shianni.

Oh..F*uck you Wynne. 

Oh and when if you dare defile the ashes she says she hopes the Darkspawn take you! How nice and sweet and wise! I mean it's not like the GWs are needed to defeat the blight!

And there's a whole thread full of Wynne's "gems"


I don't need to make this sh*t up. It's all in the game. 

That said you're right Seb is spoiled and sheltered. But more preachy than Wynne? Nope. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 août 2011 - 04:28 .

[Myusha]

The Darkspawn will always be there, there will be more Blights, and you two aren't the only Wardens in the world Weisshaupt has thousands.

The Urn of Sacred Ashes was the holy prophet's holy remains, a symbol of her greatness and how she fought to free elves and slaves from the Tevinter Magisters. She didn't create the Chantry or make it what it became today, she was just a former slave trying to do the world justice. Or that's what we know.

Thus when you destroy the Urn, you destroy one of the most holy relics, safeguarded in a bloody isolated temple in the mountains surrounded by Dragon Cults and a High Dragon, alongside some old ethereal guards and challenges merely because A CRAZY PSYCHO BELIEVES THAT BIG DRAGON IS ANDRASTE AND OFFERS YOU POWER.

I mean, you could ensure the Ashes are never found even, if you're a Mage and don't want the Chantry to use the Urn to further their power and position. But defile it, with the only means of doing so provided by a Dragon Worshipper? I don't think anyone who believes in the Maker would like you at that point.

[Ryzaki]

So Wynne would rather let Fereldan get overrun by the blight, have the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people just to save a dead woman's ashes?

She's DEAD I place the lives of the currently living in higher regard.

Whom you can kill after they give you said power (which my wardens if they poison the ashes do). A holy relic is just an item. It's not worth killing someone over.

Actually you can't. Luck just takes care of it. And Alistair managed to like my Warden just fine afterwards. ...As did Hardened Leliana come to think of it.

[nos_astra]

Ryzaki wrote...
So Wynne would rather let Fereldan get overrun by the blight, have the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people just to save a dead woman's ashes?

What makes you think the Warden is the only person in all of Thedas who could stop the Blight? There are a Blight and a civil war going on, people will die. The Warden is not going to change that and no one can look into the future and say: Oh look, dumb luck and plot armour will help this Warden end the Blight in the shortest amount of time ever.

Ryzaki wrote...
Whom you can kill after they give you said power (which my wardens if they poison the ashes do). A holy relic is just an item. It's not worth killing someone over.

Once again, you expect her to read your Wardens mind?

Ryzaki wrote...
Actually you can't. Luck just takes care of it. And Alistair managed to like my Warden just fine afterwards. ...As did Hardened Leliana come to think of it.

Yeah, that's a sure sign of stellar writing. Alistair just witnessed your Warden pull a rather stupid stunt (ruining a very powerful medicine after pretending to cooperate with crazy cultists) and kill his surrogate mother. No matter what his approval level is he's fine with it and never mentions Wynne again.

If you said there are instances where the writing for her character or certain events fail, I'd agree with you.

One the blood mage incident:
It's a good thing at least ONE characer in the whole game recognizes blood magic, instead of outright ignoring it or shrugging it off because OMG, it's Warden McAwesome, suddenly my fear of anything magical is gone and my sense of duty takes a nap.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 août 2011 - 05:21 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah nevermind. You go on then. I can't be bothered debating Wynne's (well no wrong term) hypocrisy and short-mindiness. This thread is about Sebastian after all. 

I really don't see where the wise remarks come from. 

But if someone really wants to claim Seb's more preachy than Wynne...more power to them I guess. 

Seb certainly didn't preach more than twice to any of my character's compared to Wynne's near constant preaching to my Wardens. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 août 2011 - 05:38 .

[nos_astra]

Have it your way then. ;-)

[Sifr]

Actually, is it me or are people confusing preachy with something else?

When Wynne offered her advice to the Warden, I respected her opinion and right to do so, and in some matters, such as relationships, Wynne would later admit she was wrong to judge so harshly at first and apologised.

What Sebastian does is preach. It is done so more often than not with him never considering a viewpoint other than his own. It seems that most of his dialogue with the other companions is not so much talking to, as talking at. I think the closest he comes to compromise is his musing on whether the Creators and the Maker are the same force that made the World.

But I do agree, we should try to reel this thread back to being about Sebastian.

[tsunderes]

There are things i like about seb, but my biggest issue with him is his lack of personal responsibility, and thus making others do his dirty work. Assigning a random (in the end, Hawke) to kill his parents killers, trying to convince Fenris to turn Merril and Anders in, trying to convince Hawke to kill Anders and etc. If he feels so strongly about certain things, I think he should do it himself, but no. He tries to make others get their hands dirty for his desired results.

[nos_astra]

tsunderes wrote...
There are things i like about seb, but my biggest issue with him is his lack of personal responsibility, and thus making others do his dirty work.

I never understood why people would say that about Sebastian. Other companions do the exact same thing.

Is it because he hired mercenaries in Act 1?

I always assumed as a brother he can't simply leave the chantry and expect them to take him back. He only leaves in Act 2 after learning about the Harrimans and his cousin Goran, now seriously entertaining the idea of retaking Starkhaven. That's why he can help Hawke from now on (if Hawke let's him). All his waffling is about whether to return to his life as a brother or not. It's a bit confusing, though, since his hiatus spot is still in the chantry.

Anders asks you to collect poo in the sewers. That's really dirty work.

[berelinde]

The difference with Anders is that if you refuse to help him, he will do it himself. He wants Hawke's help, but he will do what he feels that he must without it. With Sebastian, if Hawke does not help him, he will do nothing at all on his own. And he cannot blame a life in the Chantry for expecting Fenris to take the heat for turning in Anders and Merril or for attempting to bully Hawke into killing Anders. That is my big objection to Sebastian. Fenris did not convince Sebastian that betraying Hawke's friends was a bad idea. Sebastan still thinks it's a good one. He just won't act on it.

Sebastian can leave the Chantry. He does so with Hawke all the time. He even drops by to say hello to Dog.

It's kind of pointless to argue, though. All of the characters seem to inspire emotion of one sort or another in players. Loyal Fenris fas will defend him against every attack, and the same is true for any other NPC. Although Anders fans seem to freely acknowledge his flaws, and sometimes like him because of them.

[nos_astra]

berelinde wrote...
The difference with Anders is that if you refuse to help him, he will do it himself. He wants Hawke's help, but he will do what he feels that he must without
it.

Of course, he will. Nothing can stop the bombing of the chantry. Wouldn't be much of a finale if refusing to help him could prevent it. You can pretty much hand him over to Cullen on a silver plate and nothing will come of it. The power of railroading.

berelinde wrote...
With Sebastian, if Hawke does not help him, he will do nothing at
all on his own.

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with what happens if you don't speak to him or refuse to do the quest in Act 1. Is there a codex entry telling you that Sebastian never managed to hire someone else? Because I bet, if a Starkhaven DLC or expansion was to be released, he won't be standing in the chantry ruins, still waiting for Hawke to do the quest.

berelinde wrote...
And he cannot blame a life in the Chantry for expecting
Fenris to take the heat for turning in Anders and Merril or for
attempting to bully Hawke into killing Anders.

I should remind you that not every player is an ardent lover of Anders or a glowing mage supporter. But I suppose, your interpretation works for you.

The banter is completely pointless. It merely highlights the flaws of the game plot and characterization: No companion of yours will ever be able to act on their own, unless the plot demands it. Fenris' answer is beyond ridiculous for a character who's not supporting the mages (honestly, why am I stuck with Anders and Merrill as a pro-templar Hawke, dammit!?). And even on a pro-mage Hawke it makes Fenris looked like a Hawke fangirl. I won't turn them in because I'm afraid to deal with Hawke/Hawke is so awesome/if Hawke thinks it's okay it must be okay.

Same goes for "killing Anders". The scene is horribly written. Why would Meredith even allow pro-mage Hawke such a decision? Why does she give the mages a chance to group and prepare? Why would Meredith grant Hawke the authority to deal with Anders and Sebastian override Hawke's decision at the risk of being killed himself?

I could go on and on about how much things are railroaded. Why do Aveline and Fenris accept the decision to spare Anders and take him with you at that point? Why are the companions scripted to act ooc in order to ensure the player will have enough companions for the endgame. And why on earth do people overinterpret these things?

berelinde wrote...
That is my big objection
to Sebastian. Fenris did not convince Sebastian that betraying Hawke's
friends was a bad idea. Sebastan still thinks it's a good one. He just
won't act on it.

Just a reminder. The banter will occur even if Anders and Merrill are not Hawke's friends.

berelinde wrote...
Sebastian can leave the Chantry. He does so with Hawke all the time. He even drops by to say hello to Dog.

Only after his quest in Act 2, only after he decided that there must be more to it and that Starkhaven might need him as a prince. If you friend him, he will ask Elthina  in Act 3 to allow him to come back and serve as a brother. He spends his free time traveling and negotiating with nobles.

berelinde wrote...
Although Anders fans seem to freely acknowledge his flaws, and
sometimes like him because of them.

The flaws they acknowledge are handpicked. The really unpleasant things are often reinterpreted or ignored. That's what fangirls do.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 août 2011 - 02:28 .

[berelinde]

klarabella wrote...

That's what fangirls do.

Reread your post, paying attention to your response to my neutral, non-confrontational tone. Yup. You don't say?

Modifié par berelinde, 07 août 2011 - 02:20 .

[Wulfram]

klarabella wrote...

Only after his quest in Act 2, only after he decided that there must be more to it and that Starkhaven might need him as a prince.

I think you've got that the wrong way round.  Sebastian has renounced his vows and decided to take back Starkhaven as soon as you meet him - his "After the Deep Roads" codex makes it clear he spent the last 3 years travelling and making alliances towards that end.  Then his Act 2 quest leads him to doubt this and consider going back to being a priest.

[nos_astra]

berelinde wrote...

klarabella wrote...
That's what fangirls do.

Reread your post, paying attention to your response to my neutral, non-confrontational tone. Yup. You don't say?

I don't say what?

That this includes Sebastian fangirls? It does.

[nos_astra]

Wulfram wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Only after his quest in Act 2, only after he decided that there must be more to it and that Starkhaven might need him as a prince.

I think you've got that the wrong way round.  Sebastian has renounced his vows and decided to take back Starkhaven as soon as you meet him - his "After the Deep Roads" codex makes it clear he spent the last 3 years travelling and making alliances towards that end.  Then his Act 2 quest leads him to doubt this and consider going back to being a priest.

You're right. I've only played DA2 once and remembered that wrong. There goes my explanation.