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[AlexXIV]

Lithuasil wrote...

Am I the only one thinking, especially with Merills "there's no such thing as a good spirit" banter in mind, that justice is, and has always been, a really, really clever rage demon?

No I think that she means that all spirits are demons. Or the other way round, and if they mix in mortal matters bad things happen. We know from Chantry history that sprits were the first of the maker's children and that meddling with mortals made the first spirits into demons. Anders big mistake is that he thinks that Justice isn't a demon. Or that demons and spirits are inherently different. Which is wrong. Justice became a demon the moment he possessed Kristoff. And by this logic, of course, Wynne was also possessed by a demon.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[NedPepper]

AlexXIV wrote...

I think with Leliana and Anders Bioware thought ... hm how many people actually killed Leliana or Anders in their playthrough. Oh, 0.1%? Well in that case ...

At the end of DA2 though I think the percentage of people who killed Anders is much higher.

I played Dragon Age: Origins six or seven times.  I never killed Leliana.  I didn't even know she could be killed.  I always figured that it wouldn't be smart to bring the religious girl on a mission where I might do something to make her "dislike  -20" me.

That, and Sten always chided me about making deals with a guy who worships a lizard.  I did taint the ashes on a couple playthroughs, but the only result was Wynne leaving.

I didn't kill Anders my first playthrough on DA:2 either.  Then again, I felt sorry for the guy.  I think part of that is the fact that I played Awakenings and he was the best character out of that lot.

As for the topic...even if you killed Anders, I think he'll be back.  You really can't kill Justice, and if they truly have bonded as one, maybe he can't be killed.  Like Flemeth.

[NedPepper]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Am I the only one thinking, especially with Merills "there's no such thing as a good spirit" banter in mind, that justice is, and has always been, a really, really clever rage demon?

No I think that she means that all spirits are demons. Or the other way round, and if they mix in mortal matters bad things happen. We know from Chantry history that sprits were the first of the maker's children and that meddling with mortals made the first spirits into demons. Anders big mistake is that he thinks that Justice isn't a demon. Or that demons and spirits are inherently different. Which is wrong. Justice became a demon the moment he possessed Kristoff. And by this logic, of course, Wynne was also possessed by a demon.

But that was the whole point of Wynne and the conversations with her.  Was she or was she not an abomination if she remained in control.  Her spirt was portrayed as kind and gently nudging her.  Maybe her spirit was "Compassion."  Justice is a bit more rigid. 

Or maybe Wynne had the years and experience to keep her spirit from becoming something else.  Anders was already angry about being hunted by Templars.  Wynne seemed to be at peace.

[Naitaka]

Umm, there is another way to kill Ander by siding with the Templar and letting Ander go. In that case there's no toothpick in the back, it involves giant swords and exploding body parts...so yah, I think you "can" kill Anders in DA2, whether Vengence comes back though is another question.

[AlexXIV]

nedpepper wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Am I the only one thinking, especially with Merills "there's no such thing as a good spirit" banter in mind, that justice is, and has always been, a really, really clever rage demon?

No I think that she means that all spirits are demons. Or the other way round, and if they mix in mortal matters bad things happen. We know from Chantry history that sprits were the first of the maker's children and that meddling with mortals made the first spirits into demons. Anders big mistake is that he thinks that Justice isn't a demon. Or that demons and spirits are inherently different. Which is wrong. Justice became a demon the moment he possessed Kristoff. And by this logic, of course, Wynne was also possessed by a demon.

But that was the whole point of Wynne and the conversations with her.  Was she or was she not an abomination if she remained in control.  Her spirt was portrayed as kind and gently nudging her.  Maybe her spirit was "Compassion."  Justice is a bit more rigid. 

Or maybe Wynne had the years and experience to keep her spirit from becoming something else.  Anders was already angry about being hunted by Templars.  Wynne seemed to be at peace.

We don't know much about Wynne to be honest. And I also picked the answer that if the host keeps her conscience does not make her an abomination. However my view changed in DA2. I can't shake off the feeling that the spirit that possessed Wynne was just very clever. And she was possessed since early childhood, so there is no way to know who she would be without the spirit. Maybe a completely different person.

I am just surprised Morrigan did not bring that up. I mean she was supposed to know alot more than everyone around her.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 02:17 .

[NedPepper]

AlexXIV wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Am I the only one thinking, especially with Merills "there's no such thing as a good spirit" banter in mind, that justice is, and has always been, a really, really clever rage demon?

No I think that she means that all spirits are demons. Or the other way round, and if they mix in mortal matters bad things happen. We know from Chantry history that sprits were the first of the maker's children and that meddling with mortals made the first spirits into demons. Anders big mistake is that he thinks that Justice isn't a demon. Or that demons and spirits are inherently different. Which is wrong. Justice became a demon the moment he possessed Kristoff. And by this logic, of course, Wynne was also possessed by a demon.

But that was the whole point of Wynne and the conversations with her.  Was she or was she not an abomination if she remained in control.  Her spirt was portrayed as kind and gently nudging her.  Maybe her spirit was "Compassion."  Justice is a bit more rigid. 

Or maybe Wynne had the years and experience to keep her spirit from becoming something else.  Anders was already angry about being hunted by Templars.  Wynne seemed to be at peace.

We don't know much about Wynne to be honest. And I also picked the answer that if the host keeps her conscience does not make her an abomination. However my view changed in DA2. I can't shake off the feeling that the spirit that possessed Wynne was just very clever. And she was possessed since early childhood, so there is no way to know who she would be without the spirit. Maybe a completely different person.

I am just surprised Morrigan did not bring that up. I mean she was supposed to know alot more than everyone around her.

Yeah, I kept expecting Morrigan to call out Wynne. The taskmaster school mistress is a friggin' abomination and Morrigan never notices.  Then again, I barely ever played with the two of them together. 

Back to the spirt thing....Wynne said she dreamed about the spirit when she was young.  But she didn't get possessed until she died in Tower protecting the young mages.  If I'm remembering correctly.  But it is interesting that the spirit "watched over her." 

Hmmm...now I want to know what's going on with Wynne....and where she's at...or if she's even still alive...she kept talking about being on borrowed time, yet she's still kicking in Awakenings...

Maybe it'll be Wynne who helps Anders find redemption....although she would literally kill him for what he did to the Chantry. 

[Zaldrak84]

Speaking of Wynne, remember how she died during a fight with a demon but her spirit brought her back to life?

I believe that's the key in making Anders come back from the dead, maybe Justice/Vengeance can do the same with him.

Modifié par Zaldrak84, 22 mars 2011 - 02:37 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

*Anders regains conciousness twenty minutes after Hawke stabs him and realizes he really does have to live with what he's done with no friends by his side*

"DAMMIT, JUSTICE!" 

[NedPepper]

Yeah. The spirit kept Wynne alive. May still be keeping her alive. And then there's the question of Flemeth....

[Isaantia]

In the story about Anders here: http://social.biowar...6067/1#6046116; he gets run through with a sword and that didn't kill him.

Hmm.

[naomis8329]

Really I don't think so. I watch and listen to everything. Make notes and compare. Then I play through differently using the different storylines given and the outcome in many cases is the same.... Anders is not dead he has somehow survived and lives on either as himself or a rage demon. They have been very clever and DA3 is assured as this kind of story cannot be concluded in a DLC there are too many things left undone. The Wardens is another example their story states that you will find out what's going on at a later date.... Alistair's sudden arrival with the mage upheaval. His apparent support for the mages' plight emphasised but left hanging. There are many of these if you watch and listen.

[EmsaFallkin]

Anders is dead. I killed him twice in a row. Did try to get him to join me on my templar run for laugs, which just ended in me killing him anyways (He's ridiculously weak in that fight!) Ofcourse, I don't like him, didn't use him and don't care about him. They completely ruined him compared to awakenings.

And in the end when they say "that" mage I'm sure you heard wrong. They say something like "He's gone, just like that mage" I think, haven't played with a mage import yet so not sure. They mean the Warden. When I played with an import from a human noble, they said "He's gone, just like the warden".

[naomis8329]

I'm loving the way you guys think. I guess it is all relative as in the end the developers will decide what is what.

I still say that Anders lives in one form or another, it may be different for others but I still get the fact in the last cutscene that Anders is missing along with the champion. That is a "coincidence" or not who can say.

I do believe however, that DA3 is something to look forward to as the loose ends in DA2 are many and definitely need tying up and cannot be done in a DLC no matter how hard they try

[errant_knight]

I think we're meant to believe that he's dead, but that they left their options open. That being said, I don't see Anders living to a ripe old age. If he somehow survived, he'd be hated by just about everyone in the world, including some of the circle mages.

I doubt we've seen the last of Vengence, though.

I suppose that if Vengence left Anders's dying body and Anders was revived, he might actually be free of Vengence. That might actually be worse. I'm not sure that Awakening Anders could live with what DA2 Anders did.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2011 - 07:04 .

[EmsaFallkin]

If Hawke is the PC in DA3, do you really think he would let Anders live if he killed him in DA2? If I even buy DA3, which is up in the air until it's done and I've had a chance to test it considering with what they've done to DA2, if Anders came walking I would just put the toothpick of death in him again. I just don't see the point in bringing him back considering that depending on how you played the game, he's pretty much hated by everyone (even by many mages, it is a minority that wanted a war), including Hawke.

EDIT: I can agree that there is a possibility for Vengeance to show up again though.

Regarding the question of what is left when Anders dies, I'm not sure. If you take Anders into the Fade during the Faynriel quest, then it will be justice that has control. And he seems like good ol justice to me, may not have tried all dialogue or party compositions there though.

Modifié par EmsaFallkin, 22 mars 2011 - 07:21 .

[Camilladilla]

There's quite a bit of evidence suggesting that Anders can't die by ordinary means. The short story Isaantia posted for example, he gets run through the chest by a templar's long sword and doesn't even flinch.

Then there's this scene: which was meant to explain how Anders is still alive if he died in Awakenings. You could interpret it as "Oh, Nathaniel's just mistaken" but on the other hand I found it mighty curious how Nate kept pressing the point, which made me raise an eyebrow. Instead of a clear cut "oh that wasn't me, it was another mage" to hand wave Anders' death in the Awakenings epilogue, we get "but I know it was you!" to make us doubt Anders' word.

Modifié par Camilladilla, 23 mars 2011 - 07:07 .

[Baelyn]

I would highly question the probability of Vengeance surviving but not Anders. Anders makes it very clear several times in DA2 that he and Justice are no more. There is only Vengeance. They are one in the same now.

This is why I knew something was SUPREMELY suspect when he said he needed my help separating them. For all of you Warcraft lovers out there it sounds exactly the same as Arthas and Ner'zhul. There isn't a dichotomy...but a seamless fusion.

This would further go to prove that simply running him through with a knife makes him no more dead than you or I.

[viverravid]

I killed him. Got no "that mage" line. I got that Hawke was "gone, just like the Warden".

I think he's quite dead if you killed him. Justice/Vengeance is another matter. Backstab rather than throat cut is for animation reasons - you can't show his face in the death scene if his throat is cut without requiring a whole bunch of extra art assets for the blood. Only throat cut I saw in the whole game was a Qunari prisoner near the end of act 2, shot from behind for obvious reasons.

[Camilladilla]

Baelyn wrote...

I would highly question the probability of Vengeance surviving but not Anders. Anders makes it very clear several times in DA2 that he and Justice are no more. There is only Vengeance. They are one in the same now.

This is why I knew something was SUPREMELY suspect when he said he needed my help separating them. For all of you Warcraft lovers out there it sounds exactly the same as Arthas and Ner'zhul. There isn't a dichotomy...but a seamless fusion.

This would further go to prove that simply running him through with a knife makes him no more dead than you or I.

Actually it's stated in that Arthas book by Christie Golden that Arthas is the one who is in control. By the end of the book he overwhelmed Ner'zhul. Also when you defeat the Lich King in Ice Crown Citadel, it's very obviously Arthas who is speaking to Terenas. Of course this is WoW and we're talking about Anders here and it doesn't really seem like a seamless fusion between him and Justice. There's so many points in the game where he's trying to fight for control of himself, so Anders does seem to exist separate from Justice.

And if you're in a rivalmance with Anders, it's made abundently clear that Anders and Justice aren't always in tandem: 

[TheEgoRaptor]

TexasToast712 wrote...

I killed him simply because I know Bioware and I know that just like Leliana, Bioware loves Anders to the point of resurrecting them both no matter what your import says. It will go down like this in DA3

*Warden and Anders bump into each other on a street corner*

Warden: Anders? Is that you? Hey, how have you been buddy?

Anders: Oh I went to Kirkwall and ended up getting stabbed in the back by some douchebag..........

*Hawke walks around the corner*

Vengence: ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL!

Hawke and Warden:  ...........That cant be good.........

This.

[Baelyn]

Camilladilla wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

I would highly question the probability of Vengeance surviving but not Anders. Anders makes it very clear several times in DA2 that he and Justice are no more. There is only Vengeance. They are one in the same now.

This is why I knew something was SUPREMELY suspect when he said he needed my help separating them. For all of you Warcraft lovers out there it sounds exactly the same as Arthas and Ner'zhul. There isn't a dichotomy...but a seamless fusion.

This would further go to prove that simply running him through with a knife makes him no more dead than you or I.

Actually it's stated in that Arthas book by Christie Golden that Arthas is the one who is in control. By the end of the book he overwhelmed Ner'zhul. Also when you defeat the Lich King in Ice Crown Citadel, it's very obviously Arthas who is speaking to Terenas. Of course this is WoW and we're talking about Anders here and it doesn't really seem like a seamless fusion between him and Justice. There's so many points in the game where he's trying to fight for control of himself, so Anders does seem to exist separate from Justice.

And if you're in a rivalmance with Anders, it's made abundently clear that Anders and Justice aren't always in tandem: 

I never read the Arthas book but that is interesting.  Quite contrary to everything we were lead to believe about him previously (I.E. As soon as he took the Helm of Domination Ner'zhul and Arthas fused to form the Lich King) Perhaps what we see when we kill the Lich King is the last remnanets of Arthas that lingered on after Frostmourne was destroyed and the Helm removed.

Anyways, yea this isn't a Warcraft forum ;-) .

I never saw that scene as I never romanced Anders in any way. But I distinctly remember a scene in my playthrough where he explicitly states that he and Vengeance are one in the same now. Not sure which to believe then. Sometimes it seems as he is a duality but then other times the transition (glowy eyes and super powers) seem just an extension of his emotion rather than a dual entity....Eh...I digress...

[naomis8329]

lol, played through for god knows how many times now and my thoughts are still the same. Anders body has definitely done a runner, not there when all the other bodies are. The ending is still the same saying the Warden's disappeared also, and they're not talking about Carver either lol.

If you are going to kill a mass murderer and wanted to be sure then stabbing is not an option with a little dagger, you want to make sure as you are totally ticked off with him to do this so beheading or fire ball is the way to go here.

Also he's sustained by a fade spirit (good or bad, doesn't matter, look at Wynne in DAO). This spirit already took over a dead body ie Kristoff in DAA so why not a fresh one. The battle for the mage's has only just begun so why not dupe the "good" guys and do what Flemeth did and play dead whilst taking off at the first opportunity lol.

Either way, this is definitely not one that can be completed by a simple DLC, there are too many pieces of the puzzle left uncompleted. As a result I would think DA3 is a definite for release sometime in the near future.

Hope you are all enjoying it as much as me as I keep finding new stuff to do with each play through.

Happy gaming one and all

[Baelyn]

naomis8329 wrote...

lol, played through for god knows how many times now and my thoughts are still the same. Anders body has definitely done a runner, not there when all the other bodies are. The ending is still the same saying the Warden's disappeared also, and they're not talking about Carver either lol.

If you are going to kill a mass murderer and wanted to be sure then stabbing is not an option with a little dagger, you want to make sure as you are totally ticked off with him to do this so beheading or fire ball is the way to go here.

Also he's sustained by a fade spirit (good or bad, doesn't matter, look at Wynne in DAO). This spirit already took over a dead body ie Kristoff in DAA so why not a fresh one. The battle for the mage's has only just begun so why not dupe the "good" guys and do what Flemeth did and play dead whilst taking off at the first opportunity lol.

Either way, this is definitely not one that can be completed by a simple DLC, there are too many pieces of the puzzle left uncompleted. As a result I would think DA3 is a definite for release sometime in the near future.

Hope you are all enjoying it as much as me as I keep finding new stuff to do with each play through.

Happy gaming one and all

Kind of off-topic here, but I'd just like to say that its refreshing to see someone as enthusiastic and polite as you. Every post I have seen you make has always been very interesting/passionate/ and just showing an overall love for the game and its fans. Thanks for your posts!

[MICHELLE7]

nedpepper wrote...

Yeah. The spirit kept Wynne alive. May still be keeping her alive. And then there's the question of Flemeth....

The stuff about Flemtih does make me question whether or not Wynne or Anders can really die. She is probably the biggest unanswered question for me out of the Dragon Age lore. I hope she is featured heavily in the next game.

[ongnei]

You kill Ander with a small dagger here,but you kill Logain with a big fat giant sword in DA:O..hehe