77 réponses à ce sujet

[Chrumpek]

So after playing both dragon ages and awakening I am still confused when it comes to blood magic. Is it forbidden school of magic or just a way to cast your spells, do you learn it by reading a book of how to from circle libraries, make a pact with a demon that teaches you how to use it or do you just slash your wrist and begin pwnage.

In the first game the Warden needed to make a pact with demon to let him claim the redclife royal family in exchange for letting warden use the blood magic. Whether the demon thought you to use it or just allowed you to use it remains unanswered.

In dragon age II every single mage has the ability to use it, just slices his hand and boom his a powerfull blood mage that can raise undead or isnta turn into abomination. So is blood magic indeed a school that branches into necromancy, demonology, controlling blood organism etc?

And if there was a mage and had pull of blood around him could he use it to cast spells or not does it have to be blood from someone who is alive? Does blood magic involve having to pact with demon to unleash it or just study a tome of how to use it? Now if you actually get to use it does it let demons control you or what? Most people in the game that are abominations are called blood mages or were called before they became those. You can even divide mages into 2 groups the one that become abominations and the ones that use way overpowered spells. All of this is blood magic?

And lastly in both games people talk that blood magic is more powerfull then any other school, that it gives a mage more power, that's why tevinter magisters practice it. But in game it never enhances your spells, jsut lets you cast it from your health, doesn't let you pact with demon or make sacrifice etc. Why do they all say it gives you more power when you can't use it properly or aren't even recognized as one.

Now for the game itself lore aside, you can see plenty of cool spells blood mages perform in both games especially in DAII that are unavailable to your character even if he takes blood magic as specialization. In the quest with a dreamer you can "pact" with demon, I thought it could be perfect opportunity for a new spell for blood magic but nope it wasn't jsut attributes. So why can't we use those cool spells?

Someone who understands the topic please clarify a bit on the blood magic - thank you ~^

[MorningBird]

While I'm really no expert on the subject of blood magic, it's heavily implied that the reason the Chantry of Andraste forbids its use is becase it's a school of magic taught (and possibly powered) by demons. Also, the more 'powerful' spells are cast at the cost of the mage's own life/blood, or by sacrificing others (sometimes in large quantities.)

In a conversation between Anders and Fenris, in order to become a blood mage, you have to 'look a demon in the eye, and accept it's bargain.' However, I think it can also be debated that certain forms of blood magic can be learned through books. I would expect, however, that you would still have to make a demonic pact of some sort, as any text you find on the subject probably starts with 'step one, find a demon.'

For more/clearer info, I suggest checking out the Dragon Age wiki.

Wiki link here!

Modifié par MorningBird, 21 mars 2011 - 09:43 .

[Chrumpek]

Checked it, doesn't clarify too much. This means that Jowan packed with a demon to get his power? Looked to me like he just studied it or so. Also Hawke doesn't pact with any demon in DAII yet he can still use it (in DA:O he had to pact with a demon actually).

By the way, when you watch the trailer for DAII you can see clearly that hawke is using blood magic to finish the arishok. Too bad that cool spells are only reserved for trailers right? ~^

[Lithuasil]

I said this a few times already, it's just the way I understand it -

Normal magic, you channel what little power you can draw from the fade through the gate inside you (mana).
Bloodmagic, you shed a little of your (magical) blood, and use it as a lure, to get something from the other side of the veil, to do the job for you. So basically, bloodmagic would essentially be inviting the demons over for dinner, because they help you carry the closet beforehand. That would also essentially explain why bloodmagic makes you so much more powerful - it's not yourself doing the heavy lifting, but some creature from somewhere, that's can't quite make it to this side, but channel it's strength through a minor vessel (a few drops of a mages blood as opposed to the whole mage).
That's how I understand it, anyway.

[MorningBird]

I've actually heard that the spell used to rip the Arishok in two in the trailer is the 'Crushing Prison' finisher, but I've never used that spell as a mage, so I wouldn't know.

I would assume that yes, Jowan made a pact with a demon. As Meredith says/implies, you can't just 'use' blood magic offensively without thoroughly practicing it private first (like any branch of magic, I imagine.) I doubt Jowan was just studying it from an 'academic' standpoint, cnsidering how effectively he used it when push came to shove.

As far as Hawke not making a 'pact' to learn blood magic goes, I suspect Hawke did, just as I suspect warrior Hawke learned 'templar' talents from a templar. Just because we don't see the pact being made doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because we don't see Hawke rigorously learning the templar talents from someone doesn't mean he didn't.

It's a matter of where to spend resources, and something I appreciated in DAO. We know where the Warden learns bard skills (Leliana), templar techniques (Alistair) and blood magic (desire demon.)

It's possible they chose to do things differently in DA2 so that these additional skills could be used sooner (whereas learning most skills in DAO was approval based/only accessible at certain points in the story.)

Bottomline: just because we don't see it doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen.

EDIT:  Yeah, Crushing Prison is used to rip people in two, not blood magic.

Modifié par MorningBird, 21 mars 2011 - 10:14 .

[DKJaigen]

Lithuasil wrote...

I said this a few times already, it's just the way I understand it -

Normal magic, you channel what little power you can draw from the fade through the gate inside you (mana).
Bloodmagic, you shed a little of your (magical) blood, and use it as a lure, to get something from the other side of the veil, to do the job for you. So basically, bloodmagic would essentially be inviting the demons over for dinner, because they help you carry the closet beforehand. That would also essentially explain why bloodmagic makes you so much more powerful - it's not yourself doing the heavy lifting, but some creature from somewhere, that's can't quite make it to this side, but channel it's strength through a minor vessel (a few drops of a mages blood as opposed to the whole mage).
That's how I understand it, anyway.

Lorewise it specifically states that bloodmagic is the least depended on demons. as far as i know a bloodmage converts live energy into mana.

[DKJaigen]

MorningBird wrote...

I've actually heard that the spell used to rip the Arishok in two in the trailer is the 'Crushing Prison' finisher, but I've never used that spell as a mage, so I wouldn't know.

I would assume that yes, Jowan made a pact with a demon. As Meredith says/implies, you can't just 'use' blood magic offensively without thoroughly practicing it private first (like any branch of magic, I imagine.) I doubt Jowan was just studying it from an 'academic' standpoint, cnsidering how effectively he used it when push came to shove.

As far as Hawke not making a 'pact' to learn blood magic goes, I suspect Hawke did, just as I suspect warrior Hawke learned 'templar' talents from a templar. Just because we don't see the pact being made doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because we don't see Hawke rigorously learning the templar talents from someone doesn't mean he didn't.

It's a matter of where to spend resources, and something I appreciated in DAO. We know where the Warden learns bard skills (Leliana), templar techniques (Alistair) and blood magic (desire demon.)

It's possible they chose to do things differently in DA2 so that these additional skills could be used sooner (whereas learning most skills in DAO was approval based/only accessible at certain points in the story.)

Bottomline: just because we don't see it doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen.

EDIT:  Yeah, Crushing Prison is used to rip people in two, not blood magic.

knowledge in bloodmagic can be acquired from a demon or studying it from a book. The reason why so many people learn it from a demon is because the chantry has destroyed most knowledge about bloodmagic. i suspect that in the tevinter imperium all mages that wish to study bloodmagic do so from books and not from volatile demons.

[Chrumpek]

So blood magic doesn't involve demons if it is studied from books, other mages//enchanters and can be used offensively after practicing.

But can it be used to control demons or undead and can all of it be used just using mages blood? We see plenty of blood mages use demons or ressurect the dead to obey them. Now one of you mentioned that blood mage uses "magical" blood that a mage posses. So he can't use normal persons blood for his spells? I saw them use it in game I think.

[Chrumpek]

Also normal mage uses lyrium to cast spells right? It also shouldn't be dependent on demons to cast those spells then same as using your own blood to cast them. Yet we clearly see plenty of demons and fade related events when blood magic is involved.

[Lithuasil]

All magic comes from the fade - the question is do you channel said magic through the gate inside yourself (normal magic, limited capacity), or do you get a demon to do the job for you.

[Maria Caliban]

Chrumpek wrote...

So after playing both dragon ages and awakening I am still confused when it comes to blood magic. Is it forbidden school of magic or just a way to cast your spells, do you learn it by reading a book of how to from circle libraries, make a pact with a demon that teaches you how to use it or do you just slash your wrist and begin pwnage.

Yes. Yes.
No. Yes. Yes. And yes.

You can cast any spell with your blood. If you cast a spell with your blood, it's blood magic. This type of blood magic can be stumbled upon.

Cut self-> figure out how to pull power from your blood -> Cast a fireball using that power.

There are *also* spells and rituals that can only be done with blood magic. That's your Forbidden School. You're going to need a teacher of somesort for this. Demon, hidden tomes, another blood mage, etc.

Neither using blood to power your spell nor the blood magic specific spells are taught in the Circle. Save for in Tevinter.

Chrumpek wrote...

Also normal mage uses lyrium to cast spells right? It also shouldn't be dependent on demons to cast those spells then same as using your own blood to cast them. Yet we clearly see plenty of demons and fade related events when blood magic is involved.

You can use lyrium to cast many spells but not blood magic specific spells. You can't control another person's mind with lyrium. The spell the Tevinter Magister's used to physically enter the Fade could only be cast with blood.

You can see this in the game. Both Merrill and a Blood Mage PC have spells that can only be cast when their blood magic sustainable is active.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2011 - 11:47 .

[Chrumpek]

I know about the blood specific spells and understand them. So basically demons have nothing to do with blood magic if you learn it from a magister or proper tomes. Still you can hear anders and fenris talking about blood magic as if you could only access it by having a pact with a demon. Demon casts spells or can teach you those spells... ~^

[Taleroth]

Blood Magic's only relevance to demons is that it can be used to summon them.

[Junri]

Blood magic is the only magic that is truly cut off from the fade FYI, as it does not require an individuals mana or connection to the fade to use. It still comes from the fade, but it is technically the safest form of magic that will least likely get you possessed as long as you use it responsibly and don't learn it from demons. People only get possessed because most people get their knowledge of blood magic from demons or use blood magic to power other spells to summon demons. One could use lyrium to do the same thing, but it'll take a lot of it.

Also, Jowan learned his blood magic from books. The First Enchanter said he was in the process of getting rid of all the books that contained Forbidden Magic as their library still contained many of them. A lot of them were on his desk.

The most dangerous specialization is probably Spirit Healer and its the one that will most likely get you possessed by something (a spirit) like what happened to Anders and Wynne. Its ironic because its the most approved of magic.

[Chrumpek]

After reading last post I can agree indeed it is pretty ironic. Why doesn't circle then let mages study blood magic to avoid getting possessed and helping mages understand it rather then learning it from a demon etc.
The circle could just forbid spells that are dangerous.

[Rockpopple]

From what I understand, regular magic is fuelled by lyrium, which is in abundant enough supply. It's probably in the very atmosphere of Thedas and Magi can absorb it gradually through time.

Blood Magic is not inherently evil. It's just magic that's fuelled by lifeblood instead of lyrium. What makes it dangerous is that it gives Mages way more power than they're usually used to. Think of it as being trained to use a handgun and then given an anti-matereal rifle or grenade launcher. Or nuke.

Not only that, but since draining blood from yourself is always a risky proposition, there's always the fact that blood magic works using the blood from OTHER PEOPLE. So if they were so inclined, a blood mage could bleed out a whole bunch of people and become more powerful than ever.

And powerful mages are like bacon to Demons. They draw them out and they can't get enough.

I think those are the dangers of Blood Magic.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Chantry's attitude to blood magic is dangerous and encourages abominations. It's quite telling that Tevinter magisters do not, in fact, become abominations. The demons are their thralls--as were dragons, in the glory days of the Imperium. Why? Because even though it's possible they originally learned blood magic from the demons (or from the elves of Arlathan, or from the Old Gods), they practice it with intense study. It's an art to them, and they know how it works.

Chantry mages resort to blood magic out of desperation, when they have nothing left. Because they have no knowledge of it, they do so with ill-discipline and are vulnerable to the whisperings of demons: they summon them with no knowledge how to control them, and then end up getting possessed by them.

Responsible blood mages like Merrill and the magisters are different.

From what I understand, regular magic is fuelled by lyrium, which is in abundant enough supply. It's probably in the very atmosphere of Thedas and Magi can absorb it gradually through time.

Not quite. Regular magic is fueled by mana, which represents a mage's individual connection with and skill at drawing from the Fade. Exceeding one's mana, at least in the codex entry that defines it, can be exhausting and can potentially kill a person (or turn them Tranquil? The Tranquil are, in fact, completely cut off from the Fade). Lyrium is like a potent drug that enhance's one's sensitivity to the Fade, being composed of magical... ness.

Lyrium is also not very abundant at all; don't let the easily found potions fool you. At worst, a gameplay mechanic, at best, a heavily diluted version of lyrium: it is tylenol (or any other NSAID) to the opiates that are rawer lyrium (like what the templars get). There's a reason the lyrium trade is lucrative and controlled.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 21 mars 2011 - 02:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

Chrumpek wrote...

I know about the blood specific spells and understand them.

Okay. Sorry for repeating what you already know.

So basically demons have nothing to do with blood magic if you learn it from a magister or proper tomes.

Maybe and possibly. As far as we know, they're not directly connected.

When Merrill first uses blood magic, Bethany comments that she feels the veil suddenly weaken. Given that when the veil is weak, it's easier for a spirit to enter the mortal realm, I suspect that's why demons are so eager to teach blood magic.

Still you can hear anders and fenris talking about blood magic as if you could only access it by having a pact with a demon. Demon casts spells or can teach you those spells... ~^

Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic from accidentally cutting herself, so he at least is aware you don't need a demon to learn it.

[Evolution33]

My opinion on it is that even if learned from a book that book was writen by someone that learned it from a demon. At some point in time the knowledge of blood magic came from a demon. One of the things we see with Merrill is that there is always a price when dealing with demons. Think about or own mythology and making a deal with the devil. The devil often times tries to hide the fact that they are the devil and a person will make a deal unwittingly, but still makes a deal. Even if blood magic is used to do good in the world the person using it is going to have to pay. Something evil is going to come out of it in the end.

[Taleroth]

Evolution33 wrote...

My opinion on it is that even if learned from a book that book was writen by someone that learned it from a demon. At some point in time the knowledge of blood magic came from a demon.

Untrue.  The two leading theories are that it originated with Old Gods or the Elves.

It's possible that the Elves learned it from demons, but then it makes no sense to even bother mentioning the elves if the Magisters could have skipped them right over to learn from Demons.

And considering that Blood Magic shouldn't even work in the fade (why would fade creatures have blood?), it seems more likely it originated in the mortal realm.  And that any Demons who know of it learned it by watching mortals.

Modifié par Taleroth, 21 mars 2011 - 03:12 .

[Maria Caliban]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

It's quite telling that Tevinter magisters do not, in fact, become abominations.

This is incorrect. People used to say that the dalish were free of abominations as well, which was also incorrect.

There are no spellcasters in Thedas free of the threat of demonic possession, save for the darkspawn. If you are connected to the Fade, you can be turned into an abomination.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

This is incorrect. People used to say that the dalish were free of abominations as well, which was also incorrect.

There are no spellcasters in Thedas free of the threat of demonic possession, save for the darkspawn. If you are connected to the Fade, you can be turned into an abomination.

I don't think anyone ever said the Dalish or the magisters were free of the threat of possession, just that they routinely practice magicks outside the Circle without becoming abominations. It's possible, just as it's possible for a Circle mage, but the suggestion is that the so-called "Forbidden magicks" don't actually ensure, or even increase the risk of, becoming an abomionation

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 mars 2011 - 03:13 .

[Lithuasil]

Taleroth wrote...

Evolution33 wrote...

My opinion on it is that even if learned from a book that book was writen by someone that learned it from a demon. At some point in time the knowledge of blood magic came from a demon.

Untrue.  The two leading theories are that it originated with Old Gods or the Elves.

It's possible that the Elves learned it from demons, but then it makes no sense to even bother mentioning the elves if the Magisters could have skipped them right over to learn from demons.

And considering that Blood Magic shouldn't even work in the fade (why would fade creatures have blood?), it seems more likely it originated in the mortal realm.  And that any Demons who know of it learned it by watching mortals.

Unless my theory is true, and the whole point of bloodmagic is to create a minor vessel, a gate for the creatures from beyond the veil to channel their powers - something inbetween regular magic and fullblown possession if you will.

[Taleroth]

Lithuasil wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Evolution33 wrote...

My opinion on it is that even if learned from a book that book was writen by someone that learned it from a demon. At some point in time the knowledge of blood magic came from a demon.

Untrue.  The two leading theories are that it originated with Old Gods or the Elves.

It's possible that the Elves learned it from demons, but then it makes no sense to even bother mentioning the elves if the Magisters could have skipped them right over to learn from demons.

And considering that Blood Magic shouldn't even work in the fade (why would fade creatures have blood?), it seems more likely it originated in the mortal realm.  And that any Demons who know of it learned it by watching mortals.

Unless my theory is true, and the whole point of bloodmagic is to create a minor vessel, a gate for the creatures from beyond the veil to channel their powers - something inbetween regular magic and fullblown possession if you will.

Anything is possible.

But I think most evidence supports the Elves and Old God theories.  Dragons actually use Blood Magic, as we see in the fight in the Silverite Mines.  And even Darkspawn use Blood Magic, who Demons can't stand.

[Baaleos]

I believe in origin's it saw said in the codex, that blood magic was one of the first forms of magic, given to man by demons.

The obvious reason why it is taboo to use or think of using, is because it uses blood to fuel the magic.

Blood equates to life.

The idea of using Blood to power spells, is thought to be distasteful because it usually considered Power Levelling.
Power for little effort - Eg - Mages want power sooner rather than later, so they make pacts with demons to get it, usually turning out sour.

As seen in Origins, the most powerful forms of Blood Magic, usually entail sacrificing a life, and the sacrifice is usually 'someone else' other than the mage.

Thats why its considered wrong.

Also - Note on the last poster, as seen in DA2, You dont necessarily have to be a mage to be turned into an Abomination. Templars are susceptable too.

The only spell-caster in Theda's seemingly immune to possession, is Sandal...
He's either a different type of spell caster, or hes just too dumb to possess.
"Not Enchantment!!!"