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[Emperor Iaius I]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

This is incorrect. People used to say that the dalish were free of abominations as well, which was also incorrect.

There are no spellcasters in Thedas free of the threat of demonic possession, save for the darkspawn. If you are connected to the Fade, you can be turned into an abomination.

I don't think anyone ever said the Dalish or the magisters were free of the threat of possession, just that they routinely practice magicks outside the Circle without becoming abominations. It's possible, just as it's possible for a Circle mage, but the suggestion is that the so-called "Forbidden magicks" don't actually ensure, or even increase the risk of, becoming an abomionation

Exactly so. It's not that the magisters or the Elvhen are immune to demonic possession, it's that they don't get possessed with the frightening regularity that Circle mages do because they have training.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I don't think anyone ever said the Dalish or the magisters were free of the threat of possession...

Yes, people have said that. Prior to DA II coming out, people claimed that there were NO abominations among the Keepers.

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Exactly so. It's not that the magisters or the Elvhen are immune to demonic possession, it's that they don't get possessed with the frightening regularity that Circle mages do because they have training.

There's no evidence that this is true. We don't know how often the average circle member gets possessed. We don't know how often the average Dalish or Tevinter mage gets possessed. We don't know how often the average Rivani sage or other hedge witches get possessed.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2011 - 03:38 .

[Chrumpek]

I'd like to say that these forums are far more "mature" if you could say that, so far you have given a lot of knowledge and lore specific info on the subject without any flaming or ironic "cool" replies and I am grateful for it.
Keep it coming my hunger for knowledge cannot be sated yet! ~^

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I don't think anyone ever said the Dalish or the magisters were free of the threat of possession...

Yes, people have said that. Prior to DA II coming out, people claimed that there were NO abominations among the Keepers.

Oh. Well that's asinine and stupid I'm fairly certain there's some talk of what happens to possessed mages among the Dalish even in Origins.

[Addai]

Evolution33 wrote...

My opinion on it is that even if learned from a book that book was writen by someone that learned it from a demon. At some point in time the knowledge of blood magic came from a demon. One of the things we see with Merrill is that there is always a price when dealing with demons. Think about or own mythology and making a deal with the devil. The devil often times tries to hide the fact that they are the devil and a person will make a deal unwittingly, but still makes a deal. Even if blood magic is used to do good in the world the person using it is going to have to pay. Something evil is going to come out of it in the end.

That sounds rather superstitious.

Also, in the meantime, a lot of good can result.  My blood mage Wardens saved the world.  Mages who don't use blood magic still operate in the Fade and come in contact with spirits there.  The Circle even makes use of demons in the Harrowing.  They are hypocritical to practice the same things they preach are forbidden.

[Chrumpek]

Addition to the Merrill blood magic, you can see in game if you take your time to listen to what she says and tagging her along with your team especially to the fade that her understanding isn't quite good in the long run.

She could be tricked by any demon if he ever tried, although her understanding of demons as other "race" in other realm makes sense.

[Maria Caliban]

All your companions save for Anders (already possessed) and Sebastian (devout priest) can be tricked by the demons. Merrill's understanding isn't the issue, her willpower is.

[Parrk]

No one is immune to demonic possession as far as I know. You need only agree to be posessed and voila, there you are. Likewise, you cannot normally be possessed against your will.

This is why it is so common that a mage about to die becomes an abomination, because they agree to be possessed rather than to die.

Really, why not? You are fighting a group of templars and clearly are losing. They intend to kill you because killing mages is the only thing in their lives that gives them purpose or makes them feel good about themselves. Even if you refrain from succumbing throughout the entire fight, once it is clear that you have lost and will certianly die momentarily...why not?

Maybe the abom will have better luck. He can get a bunch of his shade friends, maybe a rage demon or two..and show those templars how much fun it is to be attacked by superior numbers.

Even if you die, it is nice to know that your attackers will be repaid for your murder instantly. I am honestly shocked that you can ever kill a mage without having to fight an abom thereafter.

This is why the templars must remain so vigilant, because their entire paradigm is based on ganging up on single mages. Given equal numbers, templars haven't a chance.


As a mage, dying to templars and not spawning an abom is just bad mag'in.  you're doin it rong.  It is irresponsible.....It makes you a sellout.

Modifié par Parrk, 21 mars 2011 - 03:51 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Varric does betray you--it's just that if you have Merrill in your party, she overrides it. Varric is susceptible to the Pride Demon.

As far as the Taint goes, well, it was the Maker that cursed the magisters with it: he's your super demon.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Exactly so. It's not that the magisters or the Elvhen are immune to demonic possession, it's that they don't get possessed with the frightening regularity that Circle mages do because they have training.

There's no evidence that this is true. We don't know how often the average circle member gets possessed. We don't know how often the average Dalish or Tevinter mage gets possessed. We don't know how often the average Rivani sage or other hedge witches get possessed.

We can only draw conclusions based on what we've observed. Should more information present itself, we alter those conclusions accordingly. Simply saying we don't know doesn't enable us to get anywhere. Suffice it to say that the general point ought to be well taken: blood magic does not inevitably or inherently, in and of itself, result in demonic possession.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 21 mars 2011 - 03:53 .

[OmegaBlue0231]

It's a magical skill that uses blood (life energy) instead of massive amounts of lyrium (magical energy) to preform feats of magic not normally performable by mages. Legends say either one of the old gods or elves that taught it to man.

As for the demon aspect it can be taught by demons but it's probably not mandatory since the knowledge could be passed from one person to another like any other spell.

Finally the reason for it being banned is more than likely superstition or resentment at the Imperium since they used it a lot.

[KirinDave]

Blood magic seems to be about: 1. Just Power. Magic has a price which is paid either in lyrium & mana¹, or can be paid in life itself. This seems to be a fundamental law of magic, not unlike our first law of thermodynamics; Energy isn't free. 2. Sympathy with living matter. It seems like some spells require blood magic to properly function, in particular spells that manipulate living creatures².

It seems like Blood Magic isn't inherently evil, but deals in subjects people find very uncomfortable. The DA Church, not unlike the various religions of the world today, rely strongly on the idea of free will and self-determination. Spells originating in blood magic seems to have a unique set of properties allowing the utter control people, both partially (turning their blood against them with the Hemorrhage spell) or wholly (completely possessing a person's body).

The implication is clear: the mind and body are one. This really makes trouble for the dualist theisms of Thedas. After all, what role could the soul possibly play if the mind and body are one? Is the promise of the Maker's afterlife a sham? Could a blood mage keep you from that afterlife? Is it any wonder so many mages practicing blood magic reject the religion of Andraste? For one reason or another, a secular morality is something that Thedas has yet to embrace wholly.

I think the writers for the DA universe have danced around directly mentioning this issue because it's heavy stuff for most gamers, and because for some it will be very uncomfortable subject. But the whole idea of magic, blood magic, and the Fade stripping away the comfortable lies and illusions humans comfort themselves with is a persistent theme. The most prominent example of this was the second Feynriel quest, and the incredibly well-written dialogue in the aftermath of that. DA at its finest, that.

¹ Did anyone else notice what the Profane called Lyrium? Who/what is paying the price for normal mage's magic, I wonder?
² It's worth noting that corpse possession and demon summoning are not exclusive to blood magic.

Modifié par KirinDave, 21 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

. . . yeah, I'm really not entirely sure the Chantry is all that big on free will and self-determination. They're pretty coercive indoctrinators, you know.

[Bathead]

Never mind, post was OT.

Modifié par Bathead, 21 mars 2011 - 03:56 .

[Parrk]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

. . . yeah, I'm really not entirely sure the Chantry is all that big on free will and self-determination. They're pretty coercive indoctrinators, you know.

Even their religions texts have been converted to catchy songs or chants...
IT is not the righteousness of their cause, but rather the inffectiosness of their groove that keeps them in business.


It is no coincidence that the first line of the Chant begins:



"We're no stangers to love...."

[KirinDave]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

. . . yeah, I'm really not entirely sure the Chantry is all that big on free will and self-determination. They're pretty coercive indoctrinators, you know.

Not to get into sensitive territory, but that's in line with a lot of real-world relgions. Free will is intrinsic to most relgions that have a notion of Heaven or a reward structure for the afterlife. You can find, historically, a lot of religons that still preach free-will have engaged in conversion on many occasions.

Listen to Leilanna talk in DA:O about her religious experiences if you want to hear that side of it more. 

[Emperor Iaius I]

I think you need to differentiate free will (responsibility) from free will (autonomy) if you're to make that argument, though. There's plenty to indicate the Chantry isn't a fan of the latter.

[Statulos]

The main reason (i think) for the Chantry to hate blood magic is not that it comes from demons (that, too), but the fact that it does not use lyrium, a resource that, how curious, the happen to have a monopoly over its distribution.

[Ahriman Dragonhand]

You know, before DA2 I would agree with several posters here but when Merrill uses blood magic to remove the magical barrier (a spell that doesn't look complicated) it is clearly stated that the power from the spell came from a demon.

Before that, like many, I had assumed blood magic (even if it originally came from demons) just meant that the caster uses his blood instead of his inner connection with the Fade or lyrium to power a spell. And that of course with the Chantry monopoly of lyrium the blood magic taboo was just a convenient tool.

But with that dialogue in mind, apparently even minor spells imply dealing with demons. I think the blood magic principles are not explained clearly enough to decide if blood magic is really evil or just another way to power spells.

[Taleroth]

The thing about Blood Magic in DA2 is that it's hard to figure out the perspective. Objective and personal. The distinction is between "Blood Magic is bad" and "I think Blood Magic is bad, because of X reason." Where X can be "because I've seen bad people use it" or "I was taught that way." Or any number of things.

The reason that it's hard to distinguish between the objective and personal is that everyone is saying that it's bad in DA2, except Merril. Even the people who are using it are saying that it's bad (again, except Merril). Even a guy who is practically an abomination is saying that it's bad. Surely, this much consensus from people of such wide perspectives denies the simple answer of it being a social stigma.

And nothing is helped by the fact that the game has so much trouble not making everyone bleeding insane. All paths of morality and motivation lead to people randomly flipping out and trying to kill you. We're going to think that Blood Mages are bad since there's only one mage in the entire game that doesn't randomly decide Hawke needs to die for stupid reasons. But at the same time there's basically only two Templars in the game that aren't absurdly idiotic, as well.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Ahriman Dragonhand wrote...

You know, before DA2 I would agree with several posters here but when Merrill uses blood magic to remove the magical barrier (a spell that doesn't look complicated) it is clearly stated that the power from the spell came from a demon.

.

You have it exactly backwards. If you have Anders with you, he explains: "that was a summoning--that requires blood magic!"

Taleroth: But that's just it, though--all of those other blood mages turned to it out of desperation. Of course it's bad--they don't know what they're doing! That doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Certainly, Magister Danarius is a perfectly personable and pleasant individual despite being--as Fenris tells us--a blood mage.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 21 mars 2011 - 04:30 .

[Ahriman Dragonhand]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Ahriman Dragonhand wrote...

You know, before DA2 I would agree with several posters here but when Merrill uses blood magic to remove the magical barrier (a spell that doesn't look complicated) it is clearly stated that the power from the spell came from a demon.

.

You have it exactly backwards. If you have Anders with you, he explains: "that was a summoning--that requires blood magic!"

Oh, thanks for clarification. I'll bring Anders to that quest the next playthrough to hear him.

[Taleroth]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...


Taleroth: But that's just it, though--all of those other blood mages turned to it out of desperation. Of course it's bad--they don't know what they're doing! That doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Certainly, Magister Danarius is a perfectly personable and pleasant individual despite being--as Fenris tells us--a blood mage.

Magister Danarius is also a slaver.

When every single person who uses it is a complete jerk, it's hard to not establish a connection.  Especially since the people who are using it are rather quick to villify other people who use it.

There's basically no perspective in the game that implies the contrary opinion.  Even Merril's use of it is attributed to her tragedies.

Dragon Age 2 presents absolutely no defense for the practice of Blood Magic.  And that is part of the problem.  It turns a potential for grey morality into madness.

Modifié par Taleroth, 21 mars 2011 - 04:42 .

[DKJaigen]

Ahriman Dragonhand wrote...

You know, before DA2 I would agree with several posters here but when Merrill uses blood magic to remove the magical barrier (a spell that doesn't look complicated) it is clearly stated that the power from the spell came from a demon.

Before that, like many, I had assumed blood magic (even if it originally came from demons) just meant that the caster uses his blood instead of his inner connection with the Fade or lyrium to power a spell. And that of course with the Chantry monopoly of lyrium the blood magic taboo was just a convenient tool.

But with that dialogue in mind, apparently even minor spells imply dealing with demons. I think the blood magic principles are not explained clearly enough to decide if blood magic is really evil or just another way to power spells.

Nope your wrong. she summons a spirit/demon to remove the barrier through her bloodmagic. the power doesnt derive from the spirit/demon.