124 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlass Jack]

Ronin2006 wrote...

I don't want to argue the 'shapeshifter' argument, it misses the point on so many levels.

It doesn't really miss the point though. The witch looking like an old hag and changing to a hot Sorceress is a pretty old fictional staple. Its more a tip of the hat to Disney's Sleeping Beauty than Power Rangers. A witch who also, you might recall, turned into a dragon.

She picks hag form when wanting to be underestimated. This form when she wants to make an impression, and dragon form when she wants to kick buttocks and fly around.

aphelion002 wrote...

The shapeshifter argument doesn't hold ground. One of your first conversations with Morrigan established that shapeshifting is for taking on animal appearances, not those of other humans.

Furthermore, we are not debating her physiology here, but that ridiculous horn and feather get up.

Last I looked Morrigan doesn't have an demon in her. Nor could she turn into Dragons. The rules don't apply to Flemeth.

And finally, one must also consider that Varric is telling the tale, and he loves the classics. (see Sleeping Beauty above)

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 21 mars 2011 - 11:35 .

[Ronin2006]

Rykoth wrote...

Several points:

1. Varric is telling the story. Varric is a compulsive liar. Theoretically, all the "extreme changes" (big blood splatters with the chunks/Flemeth/certain events) could be a form of embellishment.

2. "We stand on the precipice of change.... do not hesitate... to leap." Ever thought about that quote? It's in the destiny trailer as well as in game. Methinks Flemeth is gearing up for war.

3. She's also the Witch of the Wilds. How the hell do you think she seduces men, by acting like an old lady?

Rykoth, you have missed the point completely about Flemeth.  I'm surprised that the Dragon Age audience could be so obtuse.  Maybe it's an indication of the demographic that Bioware were aiming for with this release. We've all heard the expression "dumbing down" but now we're really getting evidence of it.

The only part of your post that is worth addressing is the change argument.  Honestly, though I much prefer the DA O Flemeth, I'm not against them changing her appearance, it's just the change itself that has occurred.

[aphelion002]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

I don't want to argue the 'shapeshifter' argument, it misses the point on so many levels.

It doesn't really miss the point though. The witch looking like an old hag and changing to a hot Sorceress is a pretty old fictional staple. Its more a tip of the hat to Disney's Sleeping Beauty than Power Rangers.

She picks hag form when wanting to be underestimated. This form when she wants to make an impression, and dragon form when she wants to kick buttocks and fly around.

aphelion002 wrote...

The shapeshifter argument doesn't hold ground. One of your first conversations with Morrigan established that shapeshifting is for taking on animal appearances, not those of other humans.

Furthermore, we are not debating her physiology here, but that ridiculous horn and feather get up.

Last I looked Morrigan doesn't have an demon in her. Nor could she turn into Dragons. The rules don't apply to Flemeth.

And finally, one must also consider that Varric is telling the tale, and he loves the classics. (see Sleeping Beauty above)

Like I said, the shapeshifter argument is irrelevant, because shapeshifting has to do with a physiology, not with her actual dress or make-up. Its a matter of tone here. Anyone can look one look at the new Flemeth and tell she doesn't belong in Origins.

Using Varric as an excuse is a cheap cop-out. Does Varric have to do with the dozen moth-infested scarves I find around low-town too? Does Bioware want us to know that everything we did in the game was irrelevant, and a product of Varric's imagination? A good RPG is a product of immersion, of feeling that the universe is real. The key to making a framed narrative like Varric's work is that you know when he is exaggerating, and that you can parse fact from legend. Flemeth was part of the true story Varric was telling. Dispute that and everything else becomes worthless.

A retcon doesn't have to be a blatant changing of the facts. Typically it happens when something that clearly doesn't fit but border-line possible logically  is squeezed into the original tale. The Flemeth and Qunari changes have this in spades.

[Cody211282]

Rykoth wrote...

Several points:

1. Varric is telling the story. Varric is a compulsive liar. Theoretically, all the "extreme changes" (big blood splatters with the chunks/Flemeth/certain events) could be a form of embellishment.

I hate to say it but people use this line way to much to explain problems with the game.

Enemys coming from nowhere in the middle of a fight-Verric is embelishing

Reused maps-Verric has a bad memory

Events dont mach up with what you did in DA:O-Verric liked it better that way

Can't cahnge clothing on companions-Verric doesnt want to tell the story of someone changing clothing


The list just keeps going on, I'm not saying that listening to Verrics BS isnt fun(the part with Bianca was awesome) but it isn't and excuse for everything Bioware screwed up on.

Modifié par Cody211282, 21 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[tmp7704]

aphelion002 wrote...

The shapeshifter argument doesn't hold ground. One of your first conversations with Morrigan established that shapeshifting is for taking on animal appearances, not those of other humans.

Well, to be technical Morrigan says she doesn't shapeshift into different human appearance because --being already human-- she wouldn't have anything to gain from it. Since there actually is some obvious benefits from altering one's appearance and/or body shape Morrigan could well be just lying to you. It certainly wouldn't be the only instance when she does it. Or even if Morrigan actually doesn't consider changing her appearance beneficial doesn't mean Flemeth thinks the same.

Modifié par tmp7704, 21 mars 2011 - 12:08 .

[Taura-Tierno]

And Morrigan has been a shapeshifter for ... what? 25 years, at most? Whereas Flemeth has been a shapeshifter for centuries. Just because Morrigan says she cannot change her human appearance, why on earth would that mean she's right? Even if Flemeth would just be an ordinary witch, albeit an old one, she's bound to know a whole lot more than Morrigan. But then, Flemeth isn't just a witch. Or an abomination, or a demon. She's something else.

I'd wager no circle mage would call Flemeth's Horcrux transportation thing possible, if asked about it.

[ashwind]

tmp7704 wrote...

aphelion002 wrote...

The shapeshifter argument doesn't hold ground. One of your first conversations with Morrigan established that shapeshifting is for taking on animal appearances, not those of other humans.

Well, to be technical Morrigan says she doesn't shapeshift into different human appearance because --being already human-- she wouldn't have anything to gain from it. Since there actually is some obvious benefits from altering one's appearance and/or body shape Morrigan could well be just lying to you. It certainly wouldn't be the only instance when she does it. Or even if Morrigan actually doesn't consider changing her appearance beneficial doesn't mean Flemeth thinks the same. In any case, even Morrigan indirectly confirms this is possible -- since she doesn't say "i can't do that" but rather "i choose not to".

Why do you think Flemeth is human? 

[Timon44]

Even though I get the point that the OP is making I cannot say I like the DA:O Flemeth better than the DA2 Flemeth (or the other way round).
I think having met BOTH Flemeths is great, just because it adds to the mystery and coolness of her character, seeing how she appears to everyone differently depending on what she wants to achieve.
That just makes her more scary.

Modifié par Timon44, 21 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[Rybciek]

And after frying dozens of darkspawn and changing back into a human, you'd want her to look how she did in DA1? That would just look absurd.

[Freeway911]

I think it is a matter of the DAO Flemeth is hiding out in the wilds and doesn't want to be noticed and the DA2 Flemeth is out and ready to kick some ass.

[Ronin2006]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

I don't want to argue the 'shapeshifter' argument, it misses the point on so many levels.

It doesn't really miss the point though. The witch ....

HAHAHAHAHA, this is just too funny.

You say "It doesn't really miss the point though" and then you IMMEDIATELY miss the point again.  I am not saying that it is inconsistent for the lore to allow Flemeth to change the way she looks.  This is a debate people now seem to be having on the thread, and I don't want to get into it.

I am not saying that Varric exagerrating events is outside the realms of possibility.

I am not saying that it is an unoriginal idea or even entertaining idea to have her 'shape' change.

The fact is I'm not talking about how you justify the 'reasons' for Flemeth looking the way she does.

What I am saying is that when Bioware's game designers were designing and thinking about the way they wanted Flemeth to look, they created a design that resembled something out of a children's tv show.  This simply just goes back to what look Bioware wanted the character to have.  It's got nothing to do with the story, the lore, the history or anything more than that.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 21 mars 2011 - 12:16 .

[Skemte]

.. Flemeth plays such a minor role in teh game its not even worth complaining about.. I mean you see her twice through out the game.. She was a minor character in DAO as well.. I can't believe people are making such a big stinker about this, its ridiculous.

[tmp7704]

ashwind wrote...
Why do you think Flemeth is human? 

That's another point, too.

I checked out that conversation with Morrigan and to be exact, she says she cannot shift into another person because shifting depends on learning how the target thinks and functions, and she's already human so she already thinks like one. But since many humans don't actually think alike, well.

[Cutlass Jack]

aphelion002 wrote...

Like I said, the shapeshifter argument is irrelevant, because shapeshifting has to do with a physiology, not with her actual dress or make-up. Its a matter of tone here. Anyone can look one look at the new Flemeth and tell she doesn't belong in Origins.

Using Varric as an excuse is a cheap cop-out. Does Varric have to do with the dozen moth-infested scarves I find around low-town too? Does Bioware want us to know that everything we did in the game was irrelevant, and a product of Varric's imagination? A good RPG is a product of immersion, of feeling that the universe is real. The key to making a framed narrative like Varric's work is that you know when he is exaggerating, and that you can parse fact from legend. Flemeth was part of the true story Varric was telling. Dispute that and everything else becomes worthless.

A retcon doesn't have to be a blatant changing of the facts. Typically it happens when something that clearly doesn't fit but border-line possible logically  is squeezed into the original tale. The Flemeth and Qunari changes have this in spades.

You're um joking right? Shapeshifting has nothing to do with Physiology. Its magic. Which is why neither her nor Morrigan are naked when they shift back to human form. Changing their wardrobe happens every time they change and you've been seeing that since Origins.

Flemeth doesn't have any of Morrigan's limitations because she hasn't been human herself for a long long time.

Varric isn't really a cheap copout. More of an alternate way of looking at things. If you'd like to ignore that option, fair enough. (Personally I think he was still exaggarating Bethany's chest in the game even after the intro) But Flemeth being a creature of legend with powers Origins didn't even begin to show is not even up to debate. Even Morrigan had trouble separating fact from fiction concerning her.

That you simply don't like the look is fair. But saying its a retcon is incorrect given her abilities. It was completely within the realm of what we knew about her. Following her meeting with Hawke she headed back to her 'appointment' where she resumed her hag look for her final dance with the Warden.

[Skemte]

Modifié par Skemte, 21 mars 2011 - 12:13 .

[tmp7704]

Skemte wrote...

.. Flemeth plays such a minor role in teh game its not even worth complaining about.. I mean you see her twice through out the game.. She was a minor character in DAO as well.. I can't believe people are making such a big stinker about this, its ridiculous.

Yes, she's such minor character she's narrating the game's official cgi trailer. And she's put on the background of this very site, together with Hawke.

[Skemte]

tmp7704 wrote...

Skemte wrote...

.. Flemeth plays such a minor role in teh game its not even worth complaining about.. I mean you see her twice through out the game.. She was a minor character in DAO as well.. I can't believe people are making such a big stinker about this, its ridiculous.

Yes, she's such minor character she's narrating the game's official cgi trailer. And she's put on the background of this very site, together with Hawke.

 You see her two times through out the game.. And they are for more or less 5 minutes each.. Please explain to me how Flemeth overall in the game is a leading character? She is not.. You rarely see her and thats it... And I am sorry but really? She is on a trailer so she MUST be a main character! When if you actually play the game you only see and talk to her for less than 10 minutes of the game.. 

[Timon44]

Skemte wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Skemte wrote...

.. Flemeth plays such a minor role in teh game its not even worth complaining about.. I mean you see her twice through out the game.. She was a minor character in DAO as well.. I can't believe people are making such a big stinker about this, its ridiculous.

Yes, she's such minor character she's narrating the game's official cgi trailer. And she's put on the background of this very site, together with Hawke.

 You see her two times through out the game.. And they are for more or less 5 minutes each.. Please explain to me how Flemeth overall in the game is a leading character? She is not.. You rarely see her and thats it... And I am sorry but really? She is on a trailer so she MUST be a main character! When if you actually play the game you only see and talk to her for less than 10 minutes of the game.. 

It doesn't really matter how long you actually see her. She is probably more important to the DA series than Hawke and the Warden will turn out to be.

[tmp7704]

Skemte wrote...

You see her two times through out the game.. And they are for more or less 5 minutes each.. Please explain to me how Flemeth overall in the game is a leading character? She is not.. You rarely see her and thats it... And I am sorry but really? She is on a trailer so she MUST be a main character! When if you actually play the game you only see and talk to her for less than 10 minutes of the game.. 

She's strongly hinted to be one of major forces that drive and shape events in Thedas. You don't see her much because she's manipulator, pulling strings from behind the curtain and making the puppets dance to her tune.

Just consider -- she's the person(?) who allowed DAO to happen in the first place, by preserving the treaties and rescuing the Warden from certain death at the beginning. And then pretty much telling you what you had to do.

Modifié par tmp7704, 21 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[aphelion002]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
You're um joking right? Shapeshifting has nothing to do with Physiology. Its magic. Which is why neither her nor Morrigan are naked when they shift back to human form. Changing their wardrobe happens every time they change and you've been seeing that since Origins.

Do you even know the meaning of physiology? 

Modifié par aphelion002, 21 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[Avilia]

tmp7704 wrote...

[snipped]
She's strongly hinted to be one of major forces that drive and shape events in Thedas. You don't see her much because she's manipulator, pulling strings from behind the curtain and making the puppets dance to her tune.

Just consider -- she's the person(?) who allowed DAO to happen in the first place, by preserving the treaties and rescuing the Warden from certain death at the beginning. And then pretty much telling you what you had to do.

Fen'Harel...just wanted put it out there 

[Cutlass Jack]

Ronin2006 wrote...

What I am saying is that when Bioware's game designers were designing and thinking about the way they wanted Flemeth to look, they created a design that resembled something out of a children's tv show.  This simply just goes back to what look Bioware wanted the character to have.  It's got nothing to do with the story, the lore, the history or anything more than that.

You explained yourself better while I was in the process of responding to the unedited version of this post.

Your problem here is your point of reference. That's what you're missing. Its not something out of a children's TV show. Its something out of older material. Specificaly fairy tales. Grim stuff. (pardon the pun) Flemeth was always meant to be a witch of legend and tales. Like Baba Yaga or Malificent. Even in Origins they beat you over the head with it. But in that game Flemeth held her cards very close to her chest until the final fight with the warden that she was anything other than a crazy old woman.

Separating fact from legend is meant to be impossible to do with her. Hence the repeated jokes about eating children.

But Hag/Sorceress/Dragon forms are pretty consistent with such legends. They just got around to showing the middle one in DA2 is all. That she showed up in this form in DA2 is not saying she still didn't look the old woman you liked in the previous game and you just didn't notice.

Its not a retcon of her look, just an expanding of her character. She could show up as an old woman again in future DAs...if it suits her to do so.

Not liking the look? Nothing wrong with that.

[Cutlass Jack]

aphelion002 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
You're um joking right? Shapeshifting has nothing to do with Physiology. Its magic. Which is why neither her nor Morrigan are naked when they shift back to human form. Changing their wardrobe happens every time they change and you've been seeing that since Origins.

Do you even know the meaning of physiology? 

 
I'm guessing you don't. If only their physiology changed, then their clothes would rip off their bodies whenever they changed and they'd be naked when they returned to human form. This clearly does not happen in Origins. Their clothing changes with the rest of their body. Thats the magic part.

So to suggest the reason Flemeth couldn't change her clothing due to Physiological limtations seems to fly in the face of what we've already seen of that magic. I don't see how its any less believable than turning into a swarm of a thousand separate insects. Or mages turning into abominations in Origins getting completely new wardrobes in the process.

(edited out an incorrect one there)

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 21 mars 2011 - 12:57 .

[Veex]

I don't want to get into spoilers, but I got the feeling that the process through which she prolongs her life allows her to take on various appearances and be in more places than one. Lore explanations aside, BioWare obviously didn't think the old tattered dress look would be a very appealing combat get up.

[B3taMaxxx]

Ronin2006 wrote...

I really liked the way DA O portrayed Flemeth as a more haggard and grim looking woman.  She looked quite realistic,  a real witch of the wilds, and the overall feel of the game thus felt much more mature.  She was and (despite her new design) still is one of my favourite characters in the DA universe.

 Flemeth in DA O.

 She looked like 'The Hobo of the Wilds'.