124 réponses à ce sujet

[Ronin2006]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

What I am saying is that when Bioware's game designers were designing and thinking about the way they wanted Flemeth to look, they created a design that resembled something out of a children's tv show.  This simply just goes back to what look Bioware wanted the character to have.  It's got nothing to do with the story, the lore, the history or anything more than that.

You explained yourself better while I was in the process of responding to the unedited version of this post.

Your problem here is your point of reference. That's what you're missing. Its not something out of a children's TV show. Its something out of older material. Specificaly fairy tales. Grim stuff. (pardon the pun) Flemeth was always meant to be a witch of legend and tales.

This is really getting sad.  This whole thing is so simple, yet you are just too obtuse to see the obvious right in front of you.  I will explain it one last time.

The point of reference really just comes from the photos.  The photo of Rita Repulsa from Power Rangers looks like the photo of Flemeth from DA 2.  Nothing more.  Hence the character design looks like something out of a children's tv show.  There's nothing else to be read into it.

This was a design from Bioware, and that is being discussed.  This talk about her being an old fairy tale woman according to the lore of Dragon Age is once again horrendously beside the point.  The justification for the design no matter how you frame it isn't going to prevent the eerie resemblance between Flemeth and Rita.

It is laughable that a character in Dragon Age looks like something from a tv show from our childhoods.  It was a lighthearted joke, and a slight criticism of game design.  Nothing more.

[Cutlass Jack]

Ronin2006 wrote...

This is really getting sad.  This whole thing is so simple, yet you are just too obtuse to see the obvious right in front of you.  I will explain it one last time.

The point of reference really just comes from the photos.  The photo of Rita Repulsa from Power Rangers looks like the photo of Flemeth from DA 2.  Nothing more.  Hence the character design looks like something out of a children's tv show.  There's nothing else to be read into it.

This was a design from Bioware, and that is being discussed.  This talk about her being an old fairy tale woman according to the lore of Dragon Age is once again horrendously beside the point.  The justification for the design no matter how you frame it isn't going to prevent the eerie resemblance between Flemeth and Rita.

It is laughable that a character in Dragon Age looks like something from a tv show from our childhoods.  It was a lighthearted joke, and a slight criticism of game design.  Nothing more.

No offense, but you aren't quite getting what I was saying. The looks for both Rita Repulsa and Flemeth were both inspired by the same source. You're missing the original point of reference for both looks is all that I meant. You grew up with Rita. I grew up with older material.

My other point was that the 'storybook' references were even in Origins. Its nothing new, you probably just didn't notice. So the changes in DA2 didn't bother me at all because they were just reinforcing what was already there.

But I get where you're coming from.

[Rockpopple]

The "haggard old woman of the swamp" wasn't the real Flemeth, it was just a disguise she wore to get people off of her back. I venture that this dragon-witch Flemeth is closer to the real Flemeth in DA Lore. At least as close as we've gotten so far.

[Ronin2006]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

This is really getting sad.  This whole thing is so simple, yet you are just too obtuse to see the obvious right in front of you.  I will explain it one last time.

The point of reference really just comes from the photos.  The photo of Rita Repulsa from Power Rangers looks like the photo of Flemeth from DA 2.  Nothing more.  Hence the character design looks like something out of a children's tv show.  There's nothing else to be read into it.

This was a design from Bioware, and that is being discussed.  This talk about her being an old fairy tale woman according to the lore of Dragon Age is once again horrendously beside the point.  The justification for the design no matter how you frame it isn't going to prevent the eerie resemblance between Flemeth and Rita.

It is laughable that a character in Dragon Age looks like something from a tv show from our childhoods.  It was a lighthearted joke, and a slight criticism of game design.  Nothing more.

No offense, but you aren't quite getting what I was saying. The looks for both Rita Repulsa and Flemeth were both inspired by the same source. You're missing the original point of reference for both looks is all that I meant. You grew up with Rita. I grew up with older material.

My other point was that the 'storybook' references were even in Origins. Its nothing new, you probably just didn't notice. So the changes in DA2 didn't bother me at all because they were just reinforcing what was already there.

But I get where you're coming from.

I get exactly what you're saying.  It's just beside the point again.

Even if (and I am not verifying your points here) the designs are inspired from the same sources as those that made Rita from Power Rangers, the visual representation is an interpretation of those sources, and the fact that the Bioware interpretation came to resemble the interpretation from a children's tv show says it all about the game design.  An interpretation of an old children's fairy tale witch can take many visual forms, it's just that Bioware created a form that resembled something usually reserved for pre-school age children.  (except for her amazing cleavage)

Besides, you are reading way too much into it.  I doubt they were thinking about it that much in this game and just wanted to make something that they would consider "awesome" as this would be consistent with their marketing of the game.  It's just that it's quite funny (and a little weak) when what they design to be "awesome" resembles Power Rangers.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 21 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Bathead wrote...

She is shapeshifter after all. She can probably look pretty much anything she wants.

As a counterpoint, Morrigan makes it pretty clear that she can't assume other human forms, only non-human ones.

That said, it's obvious there's no real reason for the change beyond the game trying to be more stylish, as with the elves and the Qunari.

[Ronin2006]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

That said, it's obvious there's no real reason for the change beyond the game trying to be more stylish, as with the elves and the Qunari.

I just wish more people could realise this.

[didymos1120]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Bathead wrote...

She is shapeshifter after all. She can probably look pretty much anything she wants.

As a counterpoint, Morrigan makes it pretty clear that she can't assume other human forms, only non-human ones.

No, what she says is that she doesn't bother, not that she cannot.  She sees little point because she see little of value in her fellow humans. As she sees it, they have nothing to teach her, so she's never studied them such that she'd be able to take other human forms. It's a limitation in her psychology, not in her ability, and the line was there mostly to provide character insight, not define the laws of shapeshifting in Thedas (it's also there to conveniently provide an excuse for why Morrigan doesn't solve various problems for you by assuming the appearance of other people).

Besides, she'll also tell you, in a conversation about her mother, that "'Tis not inconceivable that she could capture a Chasind man, or perhaps change to a more attractive form to attract him willingly. I find it more difficult to imagine her with child."

[Asenkah]

I like the games new art direction as it is distinct and Flemeth especially so. Is she a copy from Disney or PR, maybe but she is easily identifiable and given both references used in the thread so far the silhouette provides a visual reference that conveys a character similar in story design as well.

I even think your reference to a child's show is even more appropriate. Most fables and stories are told to children, and I'm sure there would be some especially spun for children regarding Flemeth stealing them for not behaving and the like.

Oh and to the those going on about shapeshifting and Morrigan.The person above is correct, she says their isn't a point to it, and nothing to the effect of not being capable of doing so.

[mesmerizedish]

You know, I was actually hoping that this would be another ManGiraffeDog thread. Shocking new character design indeed.

[tmp7704]

Mangiraffedog is reserved for exclusive DLC class in DA3, sorry.

[mesmerizedish]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mangiraffedog is reserved for exclusive DLC class in DA3, sorry.

****.

[VanDraegon]

New Flemeth looks great. Now she looks like an imposing world power.

[LordPaul256]

Asenkah wrote...

I like the games new art direction as it is distinct and Flemeth especially so. Is she a copy from Disney or PR, maybe but she is easily identifiable and given both references used in the thread so far the silhouette provides a visual reference that conveys a character similar in story design as well.

I think the point people have made that she can be directly compared to the Power Rangers witch, the character from Final Fantasy, and a Disney movie villain are all very good points that she is not distinct.

But perhaps I'm using an older form of the word distinct and it's changed in the last year. 

[Skemte]

tmp7704 wrote...

Skemte wrote...

You see her two times through out the game.. And they are for more or less 5 minutes each.. Please explain to me how Flemeth overall in the game is a leading character? She is not.. You rarely see her and thats it... And I am sorry but really? She is on a trailer so she MUST be a main character! When if you actually play the game you only see and talk to her for less than 10 minutes of the game.. 

She's strongly hinted to be one of major forces that drive and shape events in Thedas. You don't see her much because she's manipulator, pulling strings from behind the curtain and making the puppets dance to her tune.

Just consider -- she's the person(?) who allowed DAO to happen in the first place, by preserving the treaties and rescuing the Warden from certain death at the beginning. And then pretty much telling you what you had to do.

  Yes and we can also site the Maker too might have had something to do with it! This has nothing to do with the fact you rarely see her what so ever.. She isn't even hinted or considered after the second time you see her very early in the game.. She plays a minor direct role with the story.. I hardly see how getting bent out of shape because she wears a get up you see all of 5 minutes of even matters.

[Skemte]

LordPaul256 wrote...

Asenkah wrote...

I like the games new art direction as it is distinct and Flemeth especially so. Is she a copy from Disney or PR, maybe but she is easily identifiable and given both references used in the thread so far the silhouette provides a visual reference that conveys a character similar in story design as well.

I think the point people have made that she can be directly compared to the Power Rangers witch, the character from Final Fantasy, and a Disney movie villain are all very good points that she is not distinct.

But perhaps I'm using an older form of the word distinct and it's changed in the last year. 

... We can use this kind of logic to her appearance of DAO in being the stereotypical robed old hag/witch in the forest..  People make it sound like her appearance in the first game was original and amazing.. When in fact she was quite generic.

[Merchant2006]

Flemeth: MAKE MY DAUGHTERS GROOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

[Distilled]

I like to think that, rather than just a design decision to make Flemeth look more like a cartoony villain character, that the design has something to do with

*MINOR SPOILER*

The fragment of herself put in the amulet reflecting a part of Flemeth's personality, and that that fragment was also the one who saved you; her appearance is simply that fragment personified as it might be a more showoffy part of her.

And I can continue thinking so until my hopes of the returning hag appearance in DA3 are smashed.

[Vicious]

Why argue? Bioware said she can look however the hell she [they] want to look. So guess what - She can look however she wants to look and if you say she can't, YOU ARE WRONG

[Asenkah]

LordPaul256 wrote...

Asenkah wrote...

I like the games new art direction as it is distinct and Flemeth especially so. Is she a copy from Disney or PR, maybe but she is easily identifiable and given both references used in the thread so far the silhouette provides a visual reference that conveys a character similar in story design as well.

I think the point people have made that she can be directly compared to the Power Rangers witch, the character from Final Fantasy, and a Disney movie villain are all very good points that she is not distinct.

But perhaps I'm using an older form of the word distinct and it's changed in the last year. 

I knew this was probably going to come up and almost decided to use a different term here but I didn't. However I guess I chose poorly without providing context. Other uses of distinct outside of being discernably different are below and I ommited th first two entries as you quite plainly make reference to those. I was mostly using it with the intent to convey 3.

If you notice I use it twice using varrying meanings which I guess is poor on my part for clarity. First use is that the game has a clear visual style and language which is different to set it apart. Her specifically is not unique or different but the image regardless carries an unmistakable visual.

I hope that makes it more clear on what I was trying to convey. 

3.clear to the senses or intellect; plain; unmistakable: The shipappeared as a distinct silhouette.
4.distinguishing  or perceiving clearly: distinct vision.
5.unquestionably exceptional or notable: a distinct honor.

Modifié par Asenkah, 21 mars 2011 - 06:10 .

[Koffeegirl]

I vote for flemeth being like Maleficient...they both turn into dragons, have horns, and are awesome. However, Flemeth has one up on Maleficient....she also has the ability of the wicked queen in Snow White is that she can turn into an innocent looking elderly woman, like the Wicked Queen does to get close to Snow White.

In all seriousness though I like the new design of Flemeth and I think her looking like an old woman to the Warden was appropriate and the way she appeared to Hawke was also appropriate to the circumstance and story.

[aphelion002]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

aphelion002 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
You're um joking right? Shapeshifting has nothing to do with Physiology. Its magic. Which is why neither her nor Morrigan are naked when they shift back to human form. Changing their wardrobe happens every time they change and you've been seeing that since Origins.

Do you even know the meaning of physiology? 

 
I'm guessing you don't. If only their physiology changed, then their clothes would rip off their bodies whenever they changed and they'd be naked when they returned to human form. This clearly does not happen in Origins. Their clothing changes with the rest of their body. Thats the magic part.

So to suggest the reason Flemeth couldn't change her clothing due to Physiological limtations seems to fly in the face of what we've already seen of that magic. I don't see how its any less believable than turning into a swarm of a thousand separate insects. Or mages turning into abominations in Origins getting completely new wardrobes in the process.

(edited out an incorrect one there)

Lets get this straight. I said that the shapeshifter argument was irrelevant, because Flemeth only changed clothes. I never said she had no ability to change her appearance. Are you trying to claim Flemeth needs magic to change her undies? Apparently you need to learn the difference between calling an argument irrelevant as against calling it wrong.

My argument against the change was one of art style and congruity of game setting. Anyone can take one look at the new Flemeth and realize that she changed appearances because the game designers consciously took the game a new direction, a direction that is not a reasonable extension of the world painted by Origins. Hence the new flamboyant Flemeth is a changed character - a character that would not exist in the Origins. No amount of hair-splitting can obscure this fact.

[Conduit0]

Soooo, what I'm taking from the OP and this thread is that the trolls hating on DA2 are running out of ideas and are starting to grip at straws. Flemeth looks like Rita Repulsa, seriously? Sure, they look vaguely similiar in a they don't look anything like each other kind of way. Troll harder next time.


But just to give others who may agree with the OP the benefit of a doubt, I'll give a more reasonable answer. Those saying DA:O had a "low fantasy" style are completely wrong. DA:O had no visual style of its own, visually it was utterly generic in every possible way and was just flat out dull to look at. Seeing how gaming is a visual medium, being dull to look at is kind of a bad thing, so yes Bioware decided to give the DA universe a facelift and give DA its own unique look and style. Theres nothing wrong with having a unique visual style, infact its having that unique style that breathes life into a game world and gives everything a feeling of belonging to this specific world.

[MPSai]

My guess she appears differently to different people, changing herself in a way that will make them most receptive to her. Or that's her "true" form. Sure either way is an excuse for a badass new design but it does make sense for her character.

[IronVanguard]

Will Dragon Age 3 feature 5 teenagers with attitude?

[sonofalich]

i hated her look in DA 2, reminded me too much of Final Fantasy.