231 réponses à ce sujet

[NKKKK]

 It makes the most sense for a smart Hawke to side with the MAges, even if aTemplar himself. I mean the Seneshal reveals that to become Viscount you have to currey favor with the Templars.. And siding with the Templars is pretty much a waste of effort because... Since you cant since being Viscount is overrated, and the world is going to blow up anyways so who cars about allies. So really its either. Revolution now, and get a chance of freedom for mages, or live in despair and die a slow death.
Plus most of the stupid templars are insane turn to killers anyway.. And the Templars dont bow to you at the end (who cares?)... and the templars bend their knees to easily to any deuche
And with the chantry blown up the way it was, the people of kirkwall can stick it

Thats why I feel siding with the Mages is easily the best and most logical choice.. 
Opinions? =D

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Absolutely, I hated them in DA:O(especially after playing a Mage origin) and I hate them now in DA2. Hell, I even helped the Apostates just to spite them. Like you said they do get out of hand and most of them just bully the mages or worse, I was so torn up in Act 2 when Bethany gets taken away. So wish I had the option to kill that Templar *grumble*.

[Swordfishtrombone]

You're assuming pre-knowledge of how it's going to end, in making the decision. Of course, if you role play the game, or are playing for the first time, those arguments are "inadmissible" since you DON'T know the future.

Siding with either has some merit to it, without that foreknowledge, depending on your character, and what sort of a Hawke you are playing. My sympathies lie with the mages, but after what Anders did, it still wasn't that easy to side with them. Still, I would say that the most just cause would be to side with the mages long enough at least to take down Meredith, who's revealed herself to be far too extreme and paranoid for her position, and hope to mend bridges after the dust settles.

[NKKKK]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

You're assuming pre-knowledge of how it's going to end, in making the decision. Of course, if you role play the game, or are playing for the first time, those arguments are "inadmissible" since you DON'T know the future.

Siding with either has some merit to it, without that foreknowledge, depending on your character, and what sort of a Hawke you are playing. My sympathies lie with the mages, but after what Anders did, it still wasn't that easy to side with them. Still, I would say that the most just cause would be to side with the mages long enough at least to take down Meredith, who's revealed herself to be far too extreme and paranoid for her position, and hope to mend bridges after the dust settles.

Problem, officer?

[Mahtisonni]

I helped apostates too just to see if the templars will attack me.
Honestly I still think that blood magic is not evil.
Blood magic just happens to attract a certain audience, which is mainly bitter mages who were too weak willed to perform any proper magic and of course those overly ambitious idiots who think they're so totally awesome that nobody can stop them.

Just like in Diablo 2 you're not evil even though you're playing a Necromancer.
Blood magic is just a really emo form of magic that's all and I'm not going to kill a guy for just being emo unless it's a really annoying emo.

[sammcl]

Mages were certainly the more sympathetic group to me, the Kirkwall Templars were just sooo oppressive. There were of course, a load of blood mages in the story, they can kind of be explained as a self fulfilling prophecy though. Push the mages enough, take away their freedom and some will turn to blood magic out of desperation, spite and hate. Despite all that, Meredith was mad as a hatter in act 3 and the Circle mages had nothing to do with Anders' revolution, even if you agree that the Templars are justified in their approach thus far, you cannot side with Meredith's rite of annulment against innocent mages.

The choice did disappoint me a little though, I feel like a mage watchdog should exist but that a mage's freedom should not be taken away. Possibly, confined to the circle until 18 years of age then be allowed to leave. Dealing with Anders seemed to be missing a choice too, I told him to stay, my intent being that I totally disagree with his actions (as indicated by previous dialogue) but I need him to help defend all the innocents he just put in harm's way, and after the immediate threat was over I'd have him imprisoned. Of course he took that to mean I agreed with him, and we were such great friends...it was pretty disappointing to see his response =.=

[LobselVith8]

After hearing about the rape and torture being committed by the templars, and seeing Karl beg to be killed rather than live a life as a "templar puppet" when Anders brings him out of his tranquil state, I wasn't going to endorse a system of oppression. I don't see why an apostate Hawke would even consider helping Knight-Commander Meredith when he's a mage himself (and not surprisingly she points this out at the end when she plans on killing an apostate Hawke because he's a mage).

[dgcatanisiri]

Between the Tranquil as a whole and the fact that Anders is an apostate, not a Circle mage, yet Meredith calls for the Rite of Annulment, I feel completely justified siding with the mages. Not so much the templars. I mean, geez, when Cullen says you've gone too far in oppressing the mages, you know that it's bad.

[OmegaBlue0231]

I had my mind made up since I played Origins.

[Beaynid]

if it wasnt for bethany becoming a circle mage, i would like varrics idea best and just tell meredith and orsino 'screw you guys, im going home, eh! home!' and leave kirkwall(most likely with isabela on her ship for high seas hijinks). every mage you meet and save with the exception of a few(feynriel, terrie, and a couple others) are all or will be psychotic blood mages that decide to kill you. all the templars start out or are psychotic templars. both sides are lead by psychotic extremists.

I know why they had merril be a blood mage. it was so that you could see that being a blood mage doesnt make you psychotic automatically. otherwise, how would you know?

[Loc'n'lol]

So basically siding with mages is better because everything goes worse ?

[Rockpopple]

Thread battle!

Seriously tho, if Beth is in the Circle you'd have to be a douche not to side with her.

[ToJKa1]

My mage sides with mages since it is propable that she'll be annulled too, my rogue does it to protect Bethany, and my warrior who has no family left at the end sides with Templars because siding with the mages is a fight that they cannot win, and all of my Hawkes know it.

I'd indeed love to have the "Screw you guys! I'm going to Ferelden!" option. I wanted that option in New Vegas too; "Screw you guys! I'm going to California!"

[StarcloudSWG]

The Templars have a very good, very sound purpose; To guard mages. They guard mages from themselves, they guard mages from outsiders, and they guard mages from harming the populace.

Much of the time, Knight-Commander Meredith recognizes this, personally. However, she's not in control even of her own Templars, and turns a blind eye to their abuses unless they're blatant and flagrant. Add to that the "siege mentality" she's developed over the years, and she's ready to crack.

The largest problem the Templars face in Kirkwall is something they don't even know about, apparently. The abuses of the Tevinter Empire have thinned the Veil tremendously, and then you throw a Circle of Magi into the Gallows.. plus the number of mages is on the rise. There's mention that the number of magi has doubled in the past three years at one point. So, trained or untrained, Harrowing or no Harrowing, there is going to be a regular flood of blood mages in the Circle as demons get in touch with Mage minds.

It's a "structural" issue that the Templar Order will never be able to overcome on their own, short of building a new Circle fortress fifty or sixty miles away from Kirkwall.

[ToJKa1]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Much of the time, Knight-Commander Meredith recognizes this, personally. However, she's not in control even of her own Templars, and turns a blind eye to their abuses unless they're blatant and flagrant. Add to that the "siege mentality" she's developed over the years, and she's ready to crack.

And the idols influence, that most likely has in time corrupted her (in the core) good intention of protecting the city. Just before the final sequence begins she say something along the lines of her knowing it is wrong, but cannot do anything else. I think i'd like the story more if it was just the people, Meredith and Orsino, and not have the artifact involved at all.

[GreyLord]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

So basically siding with mages is better because everything goes worse ?

Godwin for the win?

No...you side with the Mages because something just seems wrong with siding with ****'s...well at least a group that does some things remarkably similar to what the ****'s did.

I don't even understand how BW considers this a Grey/Grey issue.  Hmmm. do I side with the maniacs who want their freedom, or the ****'s who will kill anyone who is not "PURE" in their standards.  Seems pretty much evil vs. good or for those who don't really consider the mages good...evil vs. crazy.

Edit:  Seems like the Nationalist Socialist Party in Germany during the 30's and 40's is a bad word...

Modifié par GreyLord, 21 mars 2011 - 03:51 .

[Camenae]

I think if you side with the Mages, the ensuing battle makes LESS sense. Why couldn't Bioware made it so that if you side with the Mages, you fight Orsino last, after Meredith? Instead, both choices end in the same battle, removing ALL impact from the ultimate choice of the game.

I totally lost all sympathy for Orsino, when Hawke just gave Orsino the best chance that mages will ever have, by pitching in along with all of Hawke's friends, and then Orsino still immediately resorts to blood magic anyway. Shouldn't you at least wait a couple seconds to see how the fight goes first? I'm standing in the room with him, telling him I'm behind him all the way, trying to help him. And he responds by turning into a monster and trying to kill me. He just completely disproved his argument that mages only resort to blood magic if they're desperate.

[sonofalich]

i sided with them my first play through but Orsino's actions will have me side with the Templar next time.

[Tzarene]

I already wrote a long reply in the counter thread of why the Templars is the better and logical choice. I 'm approaching this decision from a non-meta-gaming perspective.
Facts of the game I used at the start of Act 3:
- Your mother was killed by a blood mage (Quentin) who was aided by "O". Surely you cannot be in the least suspicious of Orsino? I actually picked the neither option on my first playthrough (as a mage who was for the entire game mage-sympathetic).
- You are Champion of Kirkwall. I don't know what that means to other people here. Perhaps it means very little but to me, it says you are charged with protecting the common masses and preserving peace in the city.

Now when the decision time comes at the end of Act 3.
- Anders destroys the Chantry in an act of terrorism. Justified by some people here but all the same, it goes against what the Champion stands for. Which is what I outlined above.
- As Meredith says "The Chantry was destroyed and the Grand Cleric killed by a Mage... The people will be out for blood." You can argue she's crazy or paranoid but there are points she make that are logically sound. That being one of those. To reduce the chaos and casualities involved, it is thus logical to side with the Templars who are the ruling law in the city.
- Lastly, Orsino. Given your suspicion of him from the above point, and even before considering the above 2 points, can you really trust him after that letter you found? I put 2 and 2 together and did not trust him.

The only concession I can see for certain people wanting to side with mages is under the condition that Bethany was taken by the Circle and you feel that siding with the mages is the better or only way to protect her. Wasn't a problem in my 2nd playthrough with a warrior as she became a Warden and (with metagaming) honestly that's the best path for her anyways. My first playthrough had Carver as Templar.
Within context of the moment, Hawke the character does not know that whatever goes down in the Gallows will spark revolution throughout Thedas. There is nothing to support this other than perhaps the ramblings of Anders, which after the incident, you can hardly expect a reliable source of information. The motivation of Hawke acting under the flag of freedom for all mages or igniting a revolution is based on metagaming.

Now if you add in metagaming to the picture, you actually know that Orsino was involved because you accused him of it. Thus you've effectively proven that the First Enchanter of a Circle is involved in illegal magic, making him guilty. Furthermore, he becomes the Harvester. You also save mages in the scene with Cullen and Meredith. Lastly, you still save Bethany apparently (obviously haven't seen it myself yet but I've gathered as much from others on the forum). You are also revered by the common masses of the city because you've done your job as its Champion. I don't recall you being the Champion of mages, even if you are a mage sympatheizer. You are the Champion of Kirkwall; you have duties and responsibilities in that role.

[StarcloudSWG]

You never *have* to fight your sibling. If you choose the diplomatic "It's up to you" option when it's presented, your sibling will not fight you. I sided with the Templars on one playthrough, with Bethany in the Circle, and during the Orsino fight, Bethany joined me. Granted, I'd found that letter from Orsino in the Lilly Killer quest.

In another, I sided with the mages, with Carver as a Templar. I didn't have to fight him either.

[Monsteroids]

Eh, I found it impractical in my case. Had to re-load and choose Templars on my game.

I kept a bigger party by siding with the Templars and got to kill both Orsino and Meredith (I'm a bad roleplayer), though I tried to make it clear that I didn't want to pick. After killing Anders, a terrorist abomination, I called Orsino out for irresponsibly supporting a crazy necrophiliac before hacking him to bits and then defended Beth from Meredith, who'd already gone all batty. All got what they deserved and I got off scott-free.

So basically, it's like the peeps above me say.

Modifié par Monsteroids, 21 mars 2011 - 04:35 .

[Talogrungi]

I disagree. I think that siding with the Templars is the "better" choice in hindsight, though siding with the Mages is the "more logical" choice for most of the game, and the path I chose on my first playthrough.

One of the Templars (Cullen, I think?) even states it; the image of a downtrodden apprentice is a powerful one that the Mages are more than happy to exploit; and they do so throughout the entire game. We're pushed to support them on the basis that they're the obvious underdog "good guys" and either Hawke or Bethany is an apostate mage.

Then, in the end, we learn that even the highest, most learnéd members of the Circle have been practicing blood magic, necromancy and consorting with demons. Meredith is, ultimately, proven right. If you supported the Mages thinking that you were doing "the morally right thing" (as I did) then, frankly, you got played.

DA2 changed my perception of Mage/Templar relations quite significantly. I won't be supporting any Rites of Annulment ('cos that's just knowingly murdering innocents) but neither will I be helping any apostate Mages. As far as I'm concerned, they belong in the Circle being watched over (but not abused!) by Templars .. it's for their safety as much as everyone elses.

[Kriselia]

Talogrungi wrote...

One of the Templars (Cullen, I think?) even states it; the image of a downtrodden apprentice is a powerful one that the Mages are more than happy to exploit; and they do so throughout the entire game. We're pushed to support them on the basis that they're the obvious underdog "good guys" and either Hawke or Bethany is an apostate mage.

I was actually rather surprised by this little gem of wisdom from Cullen. I was usually going "Pff, oh you Cullen" at most of his comments then this came out of nowhere and actually made me wonder how valid my mage-friendly stance was in the Thedas lore.

DA2 changed my perception of Mage/Templar relations quite significantly. I won't be supporting any Rites of Annulment ('cos that's just knowingly murdering innocents) but neither will I be helping any apostate Mages. As far as I'm concerned, they belong in the Circle being watched over (but not abused!) by Templars .. it's for their safety as much as everyone elses.

My opinion also changed, but twice.
I was rather on the templar side from DA:O, then the crazy hijinks of the Kirkwall templars made me support mages, but then the incredible amount of stupid seeping from the mages there made me resent them.

Best example is Grace, I murdered a group of templars to save her life, despite the rather divided opinion of my companions, then she ****es at me for not doing enough to help her escape the Circle. I mean, what was she expecting from Hawke?
The last straw was when she went and killed Thrask, who was one of the few truly likeable people in the entire game.

By the end of the whole thing I just wanted to pack up and go back to Ferelden where not everyone was crazy.

Modifié par Kriselia, 21 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[LobselVith8]

Tzarene wrote...

Now when the decision time comes at the end of Act 3.
- Anders destroys the Chantry in an act of terrorism. Justified by some people here but all the same, it goes against what the Champion stands for. Which is what I outlined above.
- As Meredith says "The Chantry was destroyed and the Grand Cleric killed by a Mage... The people will be out for blood." You can argue she's crazy or paranoid but there are points she make that are logically sound. That being one of those. To reduce the chaos and casualities involved, it is thus logical to side with the Templars who are the ruling law in the city.

So instead of arresting the man responsible, who is standing right in front of her no less, she's going to murder every man, woman, and child in Kirkwall who possesses magic. I honestly don't see the rationale behind this. Is anyone going to automatically assume mages were responsible? Are we forgetting that the Qunari tried to take over Kirkwall less than three years ago, and they're known for their explosives?

For every "O" and every Quentin we have Alain getting raped by the templar Kerras or Ella getting threatened with tranquility and rape by Ser Alrik.

Tzarene wrote...

- Lastly, Orsino. Given your suspicion of him from the above point, and even before considering the above 2 points, can you really trust him after that letter you found? I put 2 and 2 together and did not trust him.

Who cares about Orsino? I'm not going to side with the templars so they can murder men, women, and children simply because Orsino corresponded with Quentin.

Tzarene wrote...

Within context of the moment, Hawke the character does not know that whatever goes down in the Gallows will spark revolution throughout Thedas. There is nothing to support this other than perhaps the ramblings of Anders, which after the incident, you can hardly expect a reliable source of information. The motivation of Hawke acting under the flag of freedom for all mages or igniting a revolution is based on metagaming.

It's an act of protecting the innocent people from Knight-Commander Meredith and her templars committing an act of genocide.

Tzarene wrote...

Now if you add in metagaming to the picture, you actually know that Orsino was involved because you accused him of it. Thus you've effectively proven that the First Enchanter of a Circle is involved in illegal magic, making him guilty. Furthermore, he becomes the Harvester. You also save mages in the scene with Cullen and Meredith. Lastly, you still save Bethany apparently (obviously haven't seen it myself yet but I've gathered as much from others on the forum). You are also revered by the common masses of the city because you've done your job as its Champion. I don't recall you being the Champion of mages, even if you are a mage sympatheizer. You are the Champion of Kirkwall; you have duties and responsibilities in that role.

I don't recall the title of Champion entitling me to support the senseless murder of innocent people. I'm not going to stand idly by while templars are murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people because Meredith gave an order. I'm not going to help murder massess of innocent people. If I think genocide is wrong and murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people shouldn't be done, I can see why Hawke would stand against Meredith and the Order of Templars to protect the mages.

[Rizaun]

I side with the mages only if Bethany is in the circle, otherwise no, because even after helping Mages, they try to kill me later or become abominations