I've finished two playthoughs and have sided with both. I think that this is one of the strengths of the Circle/Templar conflict. First game I was a mage, supported all mages, end choice was obvious. Second game I was a mage again, but took a harsh view of blood magic and the abuse of magic. In this role, the obvious choice was to side with the Templars, because these mages were the ones who were giving me a bad name. It was tough, and I don't think I can side with the Templars again, but I was worth seeing the outcome.
Siding with the mages is the better and more logical choice
Débuté par
NKKKK
, mars 21 2011 12:38
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#27
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 05:46
Arppis
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Just think it like this: You side with templars, you are going to kill innocent children and condemning a lot of people who don't even want to fight to their deaths, just because actions of a few. I don't care if Orision or what his name was is hidden lunatic. Meredith was crazy too. What my character stood for was for those innocent mages who didn't want any part in this.
Sure Templars are just doing their job. Just like Mercenaries that are killing villagers are just doing their job.
Sure Templars are just doing their job. Just like Mercenaries that are killing villagers are just doing their job.
Modifié par Arppis, 21 mars 2011 - 05:48 .
#28
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 05:47
Aynslie
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Tzarene wrote...
Within context of the moment, Hawke the character does not know that whatever goes down in the Gallows will spark revolution throughout Thedas. There is nothing to support this other than perhaps the ramblings of Anders, which after the incident, you can hardly expect a reliable source of information. The motivation of Hawke acting under the flag of freedom for all mages or igniting a revolution is based on metagaming.
This may be only in the Exiled Prince DLC, but when Hawke meets with Sister Nightngale Hawke knows that the Divine is going to step in, possibly with her armies, and that the whole world is watching the mage/templar situation in Kirkwall. Now Hawke may not know that this incident will lead to a revolution, but s/he does know that the **** is about to hit the fan, one way or another. The thought of war/revolution could have easily crossed Hawke's mind by this time. I see Hawke as a fairly intelligent person.
Annulling the Circle with the reason's Meredith made was unjustified. An apostate destroyed the chantry, one that was right there ready for his punishment. I don't think Anders would have fought or ran, he pretty much felt that his job was done. Publicly execute him, imprison him for life, or make him tranquil. Whatever punishment that comes to mind. I think being made tranquil and serving the Knight-Commander as a secretary would have been a greater gesture to the people of kirkwall instead of killing many of their family member who are in the Circle.
The Circle is also home to mages of all ages and killing children because the adults are going nuts does not sit will with me. I have yet to side with the Templars for this reason if nothing else. I've even chosen the mages over templars with Carver as a Temp.
Bottom line...Annulling the Circle is wrong when it is an apostate mage as the offender. The Circle had nothing to do with the Chantry. And the Idol had warped Meredith's mind, she was no longer fit for duty. Hopefully Knight-Captain Cullen gets a promotion. I mean even Cullen thought it was nuts!! And that's saying alot.
Modifié par Aynslie, 21 mars 2011 - 06:02 .
#29
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 05:51
DM Veil
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Meh, I sided with the mages on just about every chance I was given through out my first play through but after what Anders did I sided with the Templars. It seemed like it made the most sense, there was no way the people of Kirkwall were going to accept only Anders paying for what happened to the Chantry, they would fear mages and the problems would only escalate and more innocents would die in the chaos. Either choice seemed bad, siding with the Templars to restore order seemed like the way to go for the least casualties.
As it turned out most the mages I killed were blood mages and I finished the game feeling good about my decision. In fact I find it harder to side with the mages after the fact now, probably save that for when I'm playing as a mage.
As it turned out most the mages I killed were blood mages and I finished the game feeling good about my decision. In fact I find it harder to side with the mages after the fact now, probably save that for when I'm playing as a mage.
#30
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 05:56
Ngoctu
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My Hawke is not a mage and honestly I dont see why I should side with some crazy people that kill innocent citizien.
Templar are bad but so are mage
Actually between the templars i met some that are actually "nice" and would try to treat mage better if only Meredith weren't there so the real problem about templar is not the instituation itself but the leadership.
on the other hand mage there is not only "ONE" bad mage one blood mage that kill womans/wife/innocent but many of them end up like that proving that a certain degree of protection is needed.
If the templar had a better leadership they would be an honorable institution protecting mage from their own greed and civilian as well.
Look the other two example of mage society the one that use people as human-stocks (is that honorable?) and the Qunari I would say the Circle of mage seems to me a fair solution. If you remember in DA:O some of the mage were happy to live in the circle where they were protected where they could study etcetc.
Perhaps the circle need some little adjustment but even between happy mage there is always someone going berzek they need protection first of all from themselves and an healthy templar institution it's a good solution.
When i had to take side i decided templar because many of that young kids were only following order many of them didnt even like the order the problem was Meredith if it were for me i would have killed meredith put Cullen in charge and try to save the situation with the mage but that was not an option and due to the number of innocent the mage already exterminated I felt that order needed to be re-estabilished (and i was relieved to had to deal with meredith too
everything went nicely at the end a fresh start with no mo fanatic at power)
Templar are bad but so are mage
Actually between the templars i met some that are actually "nice" and would try to treat mage better if only Meredith weren't there so the real problem about templar is not the instituation itself but the leadership.
on the other hand mage there is not only "ONE" bad mage one blood mage that kill womans/wife/innocent but many of them end up like that proving that a certain degree of protection is needed.
If the templar had a better leadership they would be an honorable institution protecting mage from their own greed and civilian as well.
Look the other two example of mage society the one that use people as human-stocks (is that honorable?) and the Qunari I would say the Circle of mage seems to me a fair solution. If you remember in DA:O some of the mage were happy to live in the circle where they were protected where they could study etcetc.
Perhaps the circle need some little adjustment but even between happy mage there is always someone going berzek they need protection first of all from themselves and an healthy templar institution it's a good solution.
When i had to take side i decided templar because many of that young kids were only following order many of them didnt even like the order the problem was Meredith if it were for me i would have killed meredith put Cullen in charge and try to save the situation with the mage but that was not an option and due to the number of innocent the mage already exterminated I felt that order needed to be re-estabilished (and i was relieved to had to deal with meredith too
everything went nicely at the end a fresh start with no mo fanatic at power)
Modifié par Ngoctu, 21 mars 2011 - 06:01 .
#31
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 06:16
Tzarene
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Tzarene wrote...
Now when the decision time comes at the end of Act 3.
- Anders destroys the Chantry in an act of terrorism. Justified by some people here but all the same, it goes against what the Champion stands for. Which is what I outlined above.
- As Meredith says "The Chantry was destroyed and the Grand Cleric killed by a Mage... The people will be out for blood." You can argue she's crazy or paranoid but there are points she make that are logically sound. That being one of those. To reduce the chaos and casualities involved, it is thus logical to side with the Templars who are the ruling law in the city.
So instead of arresting the man responsible, who is standing right in front of her no less, she's going to murder every man, woman, and child in Kirkwall who possesses magic. I honestly don't see the rationale behind this. Is anyone going to automatically assume mages were responsible? Are we forgetting that the Qunari tried to take over Kirkwall less than three years ago, and they're known for their explosives?
For every "O" and every Quentin we have Alain getting raped by the templar Kerras or Ella getting threatened with tranquility and rape by Ser Alrik.
The first part of the man responsible I addressed in the other post though not in this one, but I'll address it now. The reason why Meredith does not directly arrest or kill Anders is because he's your companion and she leaves the task to you. It does not support your own cause to get the champion to help you if you outright take action against one of his/her long-term companions. Even if the option was there, I'd have stepped in with a "back off, I'll deal with this lunatic" or some similar response. Despite whatever you think about the champion title, I perceive as a lawful title, and having you dish the law into Anders' face is sufficiently appropriate to reflect that.
Addressing the Qunari issue, they've been kicked out of Kirkwall for 3 years save perhaps the few emissaries picking up lost swords and such. The formula for explosives was never given to the dwarf or even leaked and it is speculation to assume otherwise. Lastly, did you even see the cutscene of the chantry being destroyed? It was disintegrated and vortexed inside out. Something other than magic caused that.... I rest my case there.
Except the difference is that "O" and Quentin have personal relevance to Hawke. You're telling me you wouldn't want the person who killed your mother and the person who enabled the act dead personally? Really? When Orsino (not other mages mind you) and Meredith make an appeal to you after Anders' incident, you really don't care about this fact about Orsino. At the very least, the suspicion itself would give you pause.
You can feel sorry all you want for the 1 or 2 cases of templar hostility and for you know, that's still speculation. You can say Alain said such things but from Hawke's perspective, it could be dismissively interpreted as whining or simply more mage-induced anti-templar propaganda. Seeing as he ends up being in Grace's group does not give him credible voice either. Ser Alrik is the one exception where you see proof and his proposal was shot down by Meredith and the Grand Cleric, not to mention he dies by your hand.
LobselVith8 wrote...
Tzarene wrote...
- Lastly, Orsino. Given your suspicion of him from the above point, and even before considering the above 2 points, can you really trust him after that letter you found? I put 2 and 2 together and did not trust him.
Who cares about Orsino? I'm not going to side with the templars so they can murder men, women, and children simply because Orsino corresponded with Quentin.
What I wrote above but simply put, it's not the sole reason. Nevertheless it's a compelling reason that you want to see him dead. Also I find it personally appalling you would dismiss Orsino so easily given his connection to Quentin and by extension to Hawke.
LobselVith8 wrote...
Tzarene wrote...
Within context of the moment, Hawke the character does not know that whatever goes down in the Gallows will spark revolution throughout Thedas. There is nothing to support this other than perhaps the ramblings of Anders, which after the incident, you can hardly expect a reliable source of information. The motivation of Hawke acting under the flag of freedom for all mages or igniting a revolution is based on metagaming.
It's an act of protecting the innocent people from Knight-Commander Meredith and her templars committing an act of genocide.
Ok so the common masses would've revolted and stormed the gallows anyways in outrage over killing the Grand Cleric who was respected by all (save Anders) to be a voice of reason in the city. In this scenario, mages will fight back and even more chaos/anarchy will ensue. Instead the alternative is the Templars step in to do that instead and at the same time, preserve public order. And that's what you'd expect from a non-metagaming perspective too.
Add in metagaming, and you see that once you reach the gallows siding with the templars, all the mages you kill have summoned demons, used blood magic, all the way to the First Enchanter (but you already knew or suspected he was bad to begin with). The only innocent people you end up helping are the few mages that were spared -because of your intervention siding with the templars- who would otherwise have been killed anyways. So this protecting innocent people notion overall is completely bogus as you end up saving more innocents both citywide and depicted ingame at the gallows.
LobselVith8 wrote...
Tzarene wrote...
Now if you add in metagaming to the picture, you actually know that Orsino was involved because you accused him of it. Thus you've effectively proven that the First Enchanter of a Circle is involved in illegal magic, making him guilty. Furthermore, he becomes the Harvester. You also save mages in the scene with Cullen and Meredith. Lastly, you still save Bethany apparently (obviously haven't seen it myself yet but I've gathered as much from others on the forum). You are also revered by the common masses of the city because you've done your job as its Champion. I don't recall you being the Champion of mages, even if you are a mage sympatheizer. You are the Champion of Kirkwall; you have duties and responsibilities in that role.
I don't recall the title of Champion entitling me to support the senseless murder of innocent people. I'm not going to stand idly by while templars are murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people because Meredith gave an order. I'm not going to help murder massess of innocent people. If I think genocide is wrong and murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people shouldn't be done, I can see why Hawke would stand against Meredith and the Order of Templars to protect the mages.
Again, refer to innocent discussion above. There's no genocide here. That's an illusion that I personally believe you've made up to convince yourself in a case for mage sympathy. There's restoring public order and in Orsino's specific case, getting vengeance (or justice however you wish to view that). To be absolutely clear on this, siding with the templars =/= siding with Meredith. In fact, when/if you chose to spare those mages that didn't use blood mage at the gallows, you have already proven so. I refuse to stand with Orsino because he delves into forbidden magic, indirectly was the causation of killing your mother, and as First Enchanter, does not make himself the best example for his Circle. In fact, his actions make the case that the Kirkwall circle was beyond help and the Right of Anullment decision almost believable even without Anders' involvement.
#32
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 06:45
Aynslie
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Tzarene wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Tzarene wrote...
Within context of the moment, Hawke the character does not know that whatever goes down in the Gallows will spark revolution throughout Thedas. There is nothing to support this other than perhaps the ramblings of Anders, which after the incident, you can hardly expect a reliable source of information. The motivation of Hawke acting under the flag of freedom for all mages or igniting a revolution is based on metagaming.
It's an act of protecting the innocent people from Knight-Commander Meredith and her templars committing an act of genocide.
Ok so the common masses would've revolted and stormed the gallows anyways in outrage over killing the Grand Cleric who was respected by all (save Anders) to be a voice of reason in the city. In this scenario, mages will fight back and even more chaos/anarchy will ensue. Instead the alternative is the Templars step in to do that instead and at the same time, preserve public order. And that's what you'd expect from a non-metagaming perspective too.
Add in metagaming, and you see that once you reach the gallows siding with the templars, all the mages you kill have summoned demons, used blood magic, all the way to the First Enchanter (but you already knew or suspected he was bad to begin with). The only innocent people you end up helping are the few mages that were spared -because of your intervention siding with the templars- who would otherwise have been killed anyways. So this protecting innocent people notion overall is completely bogus as you end up saving more innocents both citywide and depicted ingame at the gallows.
This is specualtion at best. There is no way of knowing how the people of Kirkwall would have acted had Anders been apprehended as he should have been, and dealt with by the letter of Kirkwall or Chantry law.
There is no way Hawke should have been the one to take care of Anders. If I had been Meredith I would have accused Hawke of bais based on friendship and called for whatever mage/templar court they have. And had Hawke stood in my way the people of Kirkwally would have definitely known about it. The Champion of Kirkwall is not above the law.
As far as collateral damage is concerned, It seems which ever side you choose there will be fighting in the streets and Kirkwall citizens will die because of it. The only way to minimize this damage is to for Anders to dealt with by all parties involved so blame is not placed at the feet of the Circle. Of course this means that the templars would tightened their reigns even more, but Orsino already seemed to understand and accept this so long as the Circle wasn't annulled.
As far as Orisno and Quentin goes, Hawke should have brought this to Meredith's attention. Or rather, to whom ever took her place. He would have been killed and replaced. Still, not every mage has to pay because of him.
Eventually the idol would have driven Meredith mad enough that her Templars would have noticed. Cullen was already noticing it. And I believe that eventually she would have been removed from office by her own Templars. Now what would have happened to the idol at this point is up in the air...hopefully Hawke and Varric would have found out who had it and gotten rid of it. This, of course, is just my speculation.
Modifié par Aynslie, 21 mars 2011 - 06:48 .
#33
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 06:49
Ngoctu
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In real world there are a lot of oppressed/poor people and luckily "few" of those oppressed people end up doing some kind of terroristic act/killing innocent i wonder why in real world everybody condemn them and is ready to fight them
but in a game call the oppressed people "mage" instead of "poor/desperate" and everybody seem to love them
You know that a mass murderers most probabily have had a bad childwood as bad as those mages but I never saw a court to use the "bad childwood/oppressed life" as a excuse to kill innocent people.
They are guildy they would be to defend as long as tehy fight for their freedom without taking in their hand the life of innocent people they have no right to take that way and once they did they lost any right to be treated as victim.
but in a game call the oppressed people "mage" instead of "poor/desperate" and everybody seem to love them
You know that a mass murderers most probabily have had a bad childwood as bad as those mages but I never saw a court to use the "bad childwood/oppressed life" as a excuse to kill innocent people.
They are guildy they would be to defend as long as tehy fight for their freedom without taking in their hand the life of innocent people they have no right to take that way and once they did they lost any right to be treated as victim.
Modifié par Ngoctu, 21 mars 2011 - 06:52 .
#34
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 06:49
Tzarene
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Aynslie wrote...
Tzarene wrote...
Within context of the moment, Hawke the character does not know that whatever goes down in the Gallows will spark revolution throughout Thedas. There is nothing to support this other than perhaps the ramblings of Anders, which after the incident, you can hardly expect a reliable source of information. The motivation of Hawke acting under the flag of freedom for all mages or igniting a revolution is based on metagaming.
This may be only in the Exiled Prince DLC, but when Hawke meets with Sister Nightngale Hawke knows that the Divine is going to step in, possibly with her armies, and that the whole world is watching the mage/templar situation in Kirkwall. Now Hawke may not know that this incident will lead to a revolution, but s/he does know that the **** is about to hit the fan, one way or another. The thought of war/revolution could have easily crossed Hawke's mind by this time. I see Hawke as a fairly intelligent person.
Annulling the Circle with the reason's Meredith made was unjustified. An apostate destroyed the chantry, one that was right there ready for his punishment. I don't think Anders would have fought or ran, he pretty much felt that his job was done. Publicly execute him, imprison him for life, or make him tranquil. Whatever punishment that comes to mind. I think being made tranquil and serving the Knight-Commander as a secretary would have been a greater gesture to the people of kirkwall instead of killing many of their family member who are in the Circle.
The Circle is also home to mages of all ages and killing children because the adults are going nuts does not sit will with me. I have yet to side with the Templars for this reason if nothing else. I've even chosen the mages over templars with Carver as a Temp.
Bottom line...Annulling the Circle is wrong when it is an apostate mage as the offender. The Circle had nothing to do with the Chantry. And the Idol had warped Meredith's mind, she was no longer fit for duty. Hopefully Knight-Captain Cullen gets a promotion. I mean even Cullen thought it was nuts!! And that's saying alot.
Ok so I loaded up the scene at the Gallows to respond to this killing everyone including children nonsense. As Cullen says to Meredith after Hawke asks for his opinion, "The Right has always been a last resort, when every mage involved is beyond salvation. The situation in Ferelden was much more severe, yet many mages were saved. We could still do as much here." This does not equate to me that children and innocent mages were being killed. When pressed to see whether those mages are blood mages, the following exchange is given:
Meredith: "There is not."
Cullen: "But they haven't resorted to it, even to save their own lives. Perhaps if we watch them carefully."
Meredith: "And if they hope to escape by playing innocent, will you accept that responsibility Cullen?"
Cullen: "Yes. I believe that's what being a Templar is about."
People are quick to assume that siding with the templars = siding with Meredith. Clearly that is further from the truth. I've said in the last post but I'll reiterate that point again. This is easily among my top 5 scenes in the whole game. I would've been far more mage sympathetic if that scene wasn't there but fact is it's there. It's proof enough albeit metagaming at this point that siding with the templars isn't what you may have thought initially.
As for the offender versus Circle argument, I detailed why Meredith assigned the task to you in my previous post.
Lastly, I forgot about the scene with Lelianna so I'll concede on the fact that Kirkwall is being watched. However, this only strengthens the argument of siding with the templars. If the world is watching how the supposed champion of a city is behaving, then clearing being lawful, preserving public order and acting on behalf of the people of the city should be prevalent in Hawke's concerns.
#35
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 06:51
TexasToast712
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Oh, what did you say? Iam sorry I didnt hear you. My Hawke was too busy slaughtering all the blood mages pouring out of the Gallows. Meredith may have been crazy when she decided to do it but annuling the Kirkwall Circle was the right thing to do as 97% percent of the mages there where either.......
A. Already a blood mage.
or
B. Too weak willed to resist demonic possession or the use of blood magic.
A. Already a blood mage.
or
B. Too weak willed to resist demonic possession or the use of blood magic.
Modifié par TexasToast712, 22 mars 2011 - 04:22 .
#36
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 06:54
Dileos
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Sided with the mages on my first play through.
Never. Doing. That. Again. They're all gunna die, every single one of them.
Who blew up the chantry? Anders, a mage.
Who turned into a big scary monster thing? Orsinio, a mage.
Who killed Hawke's mother? Some creepy guy, a mage.
What corrupted the Knight-Commander? A dwarf artifact, a MAGIC dwarf artifact.
Never. Doing. That. Again. They're all gunna die, every single one of them.
Who blew up the chantry? Anders, a mage.
Who turned into a big scary monster thing? Orsinio, a mage.
Who killed Hawke's mother? Some creepy guy, a mage.
What corrupted the Knight-Commander? A dwarf artifact, a MAGIC dwarf artifact.
Modifié par Dileos, 21 mars 2011 - 06:56 .
#37
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 06:56
Medhia Nox
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Amen to that Dileos - and I play a mage pretty much exclusively.
I'll be slinging my spells at the side of the Templars - cracking down on all these sick deviant blood mages.
I'll be slinging my spells at the side of the Templars - cracking down on all these sick deviant blood mages.
#38
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 06:56
Freeway911
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Dileos wrote...
Sided with the mages on my first play through.
Never. Doing. That. Again.
They're all gunna die, every single one of them.
My wife sided with the Templars her first run through so I got to see what Orsino was involved with. I am with the Templars all the way on this one.
#39
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:17
Aynslie
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Tzarene wrote...
Aynslie wrote...
Tzarene wrote...
Within context of the moment, Hawke the character does not know that whatever goes down in the Gallows will spark revolution throughout Thedas. There is nothing to support this other than perhaps the ramblings of Anders, which after the incident, you can hardly expect a reliable source of information. The motivation of Hawke acting under the flag of freedom for all mages or igniting a revolution is based on metagaming.
This may be only in the Exiled Prince DLC, but when Hawke meets with Sister Nightngale Hawke knows that the Divine is going to step in, possibly with her armies, and that the whole world is watching the mage/templar situation in Kirkwall. Now Hawke may not know that this incident will lead to a revolution, but s/he does know that the **** is about to hit the fan, one way or another. The thought of war/revolution could have easily crossed Hawke's mind by this time. I see Hawke as a fairly intelligent person.
Annulling the Circle with the reason's Meredith made was unjustified. An apostate destroyed the chantry, one that was right there ready for his punishment. I don't think Anders would have fought or ran, he pretty much felt that his job was done. Publicly execute him, imprison him for life, or make him tranquil. Whatever punishment that comes to mind. I think being made tranquil and serving the Knight-Commander as a secretary would have been a greater gesture to the people of kirkwall instead of killing many of their family member who are in the Circle.
The Circle is also home to mages of all ages and killing children because the adults are going nuts does not sit will with me. I have yet to side with the Templars for this reason if nothing else. I've even chosen the mages over templars with Carver as a Temp.
Bottom line...Annulling the Circle is wrong when it is an apostate mage as the offender. The Circle had nothing to do with the Chantry. And the Idol had warped Meredith's mind, she was no longer fit for duty. Hopefully Knight-Captain Cullen gets a promotion. I mean even Cullen thought it was nuts!! And that's saying alot.
Ok so I loaded up the scene at the Gallows to respond to this killing everyone including children nonsense. As Cullen says to Meredith after Hawke asks for his opinion, "The Right has always been a last resort, when every mage involved is beyond salvation. The situation in Ferelden was much more severe, yet many mages were saved. We could still do as much here." This does not equate to me that children and innocent mages were being killed. When pressed to see whether those mages are blood mages, the following exchange is given:
Meredith: "There is not."
Cullen: "But they haven't resorted to it, even to save their own lives. Perhaps if we watch them carefully."
Meredith: "And if they hope to escape by playing innocent, will you accept that responsibility Cullen?"
Cullen: "Yes. I believe that's what being a Templar is about."
People are quick to assume that siding with the templars = siding with Meredith. Clearly that is further from the truth. I've said in the last post but I'll reiterate that point again. This is easily among my top 5 scenes in the whole game. I would've been far more mage sympathetic if that scene wasn't there but fact is it's there. It's proof enough albeit metagaming at this point that siding with the templars isn't what you may have thought initially.
As for the offender versus Circle argument, I detailed why Meredith assigned the task to you in my previous post.
Lastly, I forgot about the scene with Lelianna so I'll concede on the fact that Kirkwall is being watched. However, this only strengthens the argument of siding with the templars. If the world is watching how the supposed champion of a city is behaving, then clearing being lawful, preserving public order and acting on behalf of the people of the city should be prevalent in Hawke's concerns.
Its Meredith's reason that I disagree with most. Had she said something like "There are blood mages everywhere running amok, and coming from our Circle we need to annull. There's no way of knowing whos a blood mage and who isn't" I would have been down for that. She would have had to tell me that they were going to watch all the mage apprentices under 15 or something, knowing kids will be slaughtered doesn't sit well with me. There are no children Templars. But her reason is because Anders destroys the Chantry, not because there are blood mages and abominations everywhere.
I figure turning Orsino in for his correspondence with Quentin would have been reason to annull also, because that proves the Blood magic goes to the top. I still disagree that every mage should be held responsible for what a few seem to be doing. We can guess there are hundreds of mages in the Circle, and of the Circle mages who have gone BM it is only a couple dozen (the others throughout game were apostates except for a few, or Starkhaven Mages). It just seems like a lot because all the mages we run into are Blood mages.
#40
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:21
MelfinaofOutlawStar
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After seeing how they treat their friends no so much...
#41
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:21
Siven80
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I pretty much helped mages throughout the game.
But after reading some codex entries, especially the enigma of Kirkwall my end decision was to side with the Templars while saving good mages i find.
Things like the Veil being very weak and Kirkwall having a large amount of blood mages compared to other Circles, along with the history of what the Tevinters did in Kirkwall and whats been happening in Kirkwall during my adventures meant i couldnt honestly side with the mages despite my support for them.
But after reading some codex entries, especially the enigma of Kirkwall my end decision was to side with the Templars while saving good mages i find.
Things like the Veil being very weak and Kirkwall having a large amount of blood mages compared to other Circles, along with the history of what the Tevinters did in Kirkwall and whats been happening in Kirkwall during my adventures meant i couldnt honestly side with the mages despite my support for them.
Modifié par Siven80, 21 mars 2011 - 07:22 .
#43
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:24
MelfinaofOutlawStar
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Ryzaki wrote...
Full stop.
Alain was raped?
What?
>:|
Yeah, apparently there was a party we weren't invited to.
Aside from one Anders comment I missed everything about the raping going on.
#44
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:24
Arppis
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People who are pushed do desperate things. The mages are oppressed and thus they resort to blood magic when they have no other way to fight back.
#45
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:25
NKKKK
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Hey people, you know that this is a parody thread right?
#46
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:26
LobselVith8
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[quote]Tzarene wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
So instead of arresting the man responsible, who is standing right in front of her no less, she's going to murder every man, woman, and child in Kirkwall who possesses magic. I honestly don't see the rationale behind this. Is anyone going to automatically assume mages were responsible? Are we forgetting that the Qunari tried to take over Kirkwall less than three years ago, and they're known for their explosives?
For every "O" and every Quentin we have Alain getting raped by the templar Kerras or Ella getting threatened with tranquility and rape by Ser Alrik.
[/quote]
The first part of the man responsible I addressed in the other post though not in this one, but I'll address it now. The reason why Meredith does not directly arrest or kill Anders is because he's your companion and she leaves the task to you. It does not support your own cause to get the champion to help you if you outright take action against one of his/her long-term companions. [/quote]
It doesn't help for her to order the death of every in Kirkwall, whether Hawke is an apostate or has a sister in the Circle, but Meredith has no problem making the decree. She never says that Anders needs to be imprisoned or brought to justice for what he does, she uses the death of the Grand Cleric to carry out the genocide of all mages in Kirkwall. Instead of saying that Anders needs to be brought to justice to pacify the people of Kirkwall, she's going to order the murder of hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children instead.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
Even if the option was there, I'd have stepped in with a "back off, I'll deal with this lunatic" or some similar response. Despite whatever you think about the champion title, I perceive as a lawful title, and having you dish the law into Anders' face is sufficiently appropriate to reflect that. [/quote]
There doesn't seem to be any indication that the title of Champion of Kirkwall grants Hawke any lawful responsibilities.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
Addressing the Qunari issue, they've been kicked out of Kirkwall for 3 years save perhaps the few emissaries picking up lost swords and such. The formula for explosives was never given to the dwarf or even leaked and it is speculation to assume otherwise. Lastly, did you even see the cutscene of the chantry being destroyed? It was disintegrated and vortexed inside out. Something other than magic caused that.... I rest my case there. [/quote]
Considering Anders used ingredients to cause the explosion, I don't see why this wouldn't be a possibility for some people. I don't imagine why they would witness an explosion and assume it was mages when it wasn't strictly magic that caused the explosion - it was ignited using ingredients from all across Kirkwall.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
Except the difference is that "O" and Quentin have personal relevance to Hawke. You're telling me you wouldn't want the person who killed your mother and the person who enabled the act dead personally? Really? When Orsino (not other mages mind you) and Meredith make an appeal to you after Anders' incident, you really don't care about this fact about Orsino. At the very least, the suspicion itself would give you pause. [/quote]
Because the choice is between helping save the mages from genocide or participating in it. I see no reason to kill all mages, regardless of what Orsino may or may not have done. Considering that Hawke does kill Orsino, it's not even an issue for me.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
You can feel sorry all you want for the 1 or 2 cases of templar hostility and for you know, that's still speculation. You can say Alain said such things but from Hawke's perspective, it could be dismissively interpreted as whining or simply more mage-induced anti-templar propaganda. Seeing as he ends up being in Grace's group does not give him credible voice either. Ser Alrik is the one exception where you see proof and his proposal was shot down by Meredith and the Grand Cleric, not to mention he dies by your hand. [/quote]
Or Alain joined Grace's group because he was getting repeatedly raped by Ser Kerras. I don't see why any man would lie about another man raping him in the middle of the night and threatening to turn him tranquil if he told anyone, especially when Alim left the blood mages because they were using blood magic. The illegal tranquility forced on Karl is another example. The fact that Ser Alrik had a group of templars with him, and he admitted he would take advantage of Ella when she was made tranquil in front of all these templars is another example. I don't see this as a case of "1 or 2" cases of "templar hostility."
Furthermore, the templars at the Dalish camp openly admit to torturing the Dalish clan member they kidnapped, and are going to murder the Dalish hunters unless Hawke intervenes.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Who cares about Orsino? I'm not going to side with the templars so they can murder men, women, and children simply because Orsino corresponded with Quentin. [/quote]
What I wrote above but simply put, it's not the sole reason. Nevertheless it's a compelling reason that you want to see him dead. Also I find it personally appalling you would dismiss Orsino so easily given his connection to Quentin and by extension to Hawke. [/quote]
There's nothing to stop me from killing him when Hawke decides to protect the mages from Meredith. I have no desire to support the murder of hundreds or thousands of innocent people simply because of what the First Enchanter may or may not have done.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
It's an act of protecting the innocent people from Knight-Commander Meredith and her templars committing an act of genocide.[/quote]
Ok so the common masses would've revolted and stormed the gallows anyways in outrage over killing the Grand Cleric who was respected by all (save Anders) to be a voice of reason in the city. In this scenario, mages will fight back and even more chaos/anarchy will ensue. Instead the alternative is the Templars step in to do that instead and at the same time, preserve public order. And that's what you'd expect from a non-metagaming perspective too. [/quote]
Considering the Gallows is seperated from Kirkwall by water, I don't see common people getting to the fortress if access is restricted.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
Add in metagaming, and you see that once you reach the gallows siding with the templars, all the mages you kill have summoned demons, used blood magic, all the way to the First Enchanter (but you already knew or suspected he was bad to begin with). The only innocent people you end up helping are the few mages that were spared -because of your intervention siding with the templars- who would otherwise have been killed anyways. So this protecting innocent people notion overall is completely bogus as you end up saving more innocents both citywide and depicted ingame at the gallows. [/quote]
Your comment contradicts what Varric says at the end. "He had defended the mages against a brutal injustice, and many lived to tell the tale." Although the scenes only show us a few mages when Hawke is at the Gallows, I doubt a game is going to account for every man, woman, and child in the Circle. Given how some of the mages were fighting back, it looked like the majority of them weren't even trained properly to handle themselves, which makes sense since the mages were locked up most of the time. Hawke's name also becomes a rallying cry for the mages who rise up to free themselves from the Chantry.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall the title of Champion entitling me to support the senseless murder of innocent people. I'm not going to stand idly by while templars are murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people because Meredith gave an order. I'm not going to help murder massess of innocent people. If I think genocide is wrong and murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people shouldn't be done, I can see why Hawke would stand against Meredith and the Order of Templars to protect the mages.[/quote]
Again, refer to innocent discussion above. There's no genocide here. That's an illusion that I personally believe you've made up to convince yourself in a case for mage sympathy. There's restoring public order and in Orsino's specific case, getting vengeance (or justice however you wish to view that). To be absolutely clear on this, siding with the templars =/= siding with Meredith. In fact, when/if you chose to spare those mages that didn't use blood mage at the gallows, you have already proven so. I refuse to stand with Orsino because he delves into forbidden magic, indirectly was the causation of killing your mother, and as First Enchanter, does not make himself the best example for his Circle. In fact, his actions make the case that the Kirkwall circle was beyond help and the Right of Anullment decision almost believable even without Anders' involvement. [/quote]
Genocide is:
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Anders refers to the mages as his people. Bethany refers to the mages as her people. Meredith is ordering the murder of every person who is a mage - a group of people with magical ability. What Meredith orders is, in fact, genocide. I refuse to condemn every man, woman, and child to death because of the actions of one man, and I don't support genocide. Meredith's Right of Tranquility = genocide of Kirkwall mages.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
So instead of arresting the man responsible, who is standing right in front of her no less, she's going to murder every man, woman, and child in Kirkwall who possesses magic. I honestly don't see the rationale behind this. Is anyone going to automatically assume mages were responsible? Are we forgetting that the Qunari tried to take over Kirkwall less than three years ago, and they're known for their explosives?
For every "O" and every Quentin we have Alain getting raped by the templar Kerras or Ella getting threatened with tranquility and rape by Ser Alrik.
[/quote]
The first part of the man responsible I addressed in the other post though not in this one, but I'll address it now. The reason why Meredith does not directly arrest or kill Anders is because he's your companion and she leaves the task to you. It does not support your own cause to get the champion to help you if you outright take action against one of his/her long-term companions. [/quote]
It doesn't help for her to order the death of every in Kirkwall, whether Hawke is an apostate or has a sister in the Circle, but Meredith has no problem making the decree. She never says that Anders needs to be imprisoned or brought to justice for what he does, she uses the death of the Grand Cleric to carry out the genocide of all mages in Kirkwall. Instead of saying that Anders needs to be brought to justice to pacify the people of Kirkwall, she's going to order the murder of hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children instead.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
Even if the option was there, I'd have stepped in with a "back off, I'll deal with this lunatic" or some similar response. Despite whatever you think about the champion title, I perceive as a lawful title, and having you dish the law into Anders' face is sufficiently appropriate to reflect that. [/quote]
There doesn't seem to be any indication that the title of Champion of Kirkwall grants Hawke any lawful responsibilities.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
Addressing the Qunari issue, they've been kicked out of Kirkwall for 3 years save perhaps the few emissaries picking up lost swords and such. The formula for explosives was never given to the dwarf or even leaked and it is speculation to assume otherwise. Lastly, did you even see the cutscene of the chantry being destroyed? It was disintegrated and vortexed inside out. Something other than magic caused that.... I rest my case there. [/quote]
Considering Anders used ingredients to cause the explosion, I don't see why this wouldn't be a possibility for some people. I don't imagine why they would witness an explosion and assume it was mages when it wasn't strictly magic that caused the explosion - it was ignited using ingredients from all across Kirkwall.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
Except the difference is that "O" and Quentin have personal relevance to Hawke. You're telling me you wouldn't want the person who killed your mother and the person who enabled the act dead personally? Really? When Orsino (not other mages mind you) and Meredith make an appeal to you after Anders' incident, you really don't care about this fact about Orsino. At the very least, the suspicion itself would give you pause. [/quote]
Because the choice is between helping save the mages from genocide or participating in it. I see no reason to kill all mages, regardless of what Orsino may or may not have done. Considering that Hawke does kill Orsino, it's not even an issue for me.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
You can feel sorry all you want for the 1 or 2 cases of templar hostility and for you know, that's still speculation. You can say Alain said such things but from Hawke's perspective, it could be dismissively interpreted as whining or simply more mage-induced anti-templar propaganda. Seeing as he ends up being in Grace's group does not give him credible voice either. Ser Alrik is the one exception where you see proof and his proposal was shot down by Meredith and the Grand Cleric, not to mention he dies by your hand. [/quote]
Or Alain joined Grace's group because he was getting repeatedly raped by Ser Kerras. I don't see why any man would lie about another man raping him in the middle of the night and threatening to turn him tranquil if he told anyone, especially when Alim left the blood mages because they were using blood magic. The illegal tranquility forced on Karl is another example. The fact that Ser Alrik had a group of templars with him, and he admitted he would take advantage of Ella when she was made tranquil in front of all these templars is another example. I don't see this as a case of "1 or 2" cases of "templar hostility."
Furthermore, the templars at the Dalish camp openly admit to torturing the Dalish clan member they kidnapped, and are going to murder the Dalish hunters unless Hawke intervenes.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Who cares about Orsino? I'm not going to side with the templars so they can murder men, women, and children simply because Orsino corresponded with Quentin. [/quote]
What I wrote above but simply put, it's not the sole reason. Nevertheless it's a compelling reason that you want to see him dead. Also I find it personally appalling you would dismiss Orsino so easily given his connection to Quentin and by extension to Hawke. [/quote]
There's nothing to stop me from killing him when Hawke decides to protect the mages from Meredith. I have no desire to support the murder of hundreds or thousands of innocent people simply because of what the First Enchanter may or may not have done.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
It's an act of protecting the innocent people from Knight-Commander Meredith and her templars committing an act of genocide.[/quote]
Ok so the common masses would've revolted and stormed the gallows anyways in outrage over killing the Grand Cleric who was respected by all (save Anders) to be a voice of reason in the city. In this scenario, mages will fight back and even more chaos/anarchy will ensue. Instead the alternative is the Templars step in to do that instead and at the same time, preserve public order. And that's what you'd expect from a non-metagaming perspective too. [/quote]
Considering the Gallows is seperated from Kirkwall by water, I don't see common people getting to the fortress if access is restricted.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
Add in metagaming, and you see that once you reach the gallows siding with the templars, all the mages you kill have summoned demons, used blood magic, all the way to the First Enchanter (but you already knew or suspected he was bad to begin with). The only innocent people you end up helping are the few mages that were spared -because of your intervention siding with the templars- who would otherwise have been killed anyways. So this protecting innocent people notion overall is completely bogus as you end up saving more innocents both citywide and depicted ingame at the gallows. [/quote]
Your comment contradicts what Varric says at the end. "He had defended the mages against a brutal injustice, and many lived to tell the tale." Although the scenes only show us a few mages when Hawke is at the Gallows, I doubt a game is going to account for every man, woman, and child in the Circle. Given how some of the mages were fighting back, it looked like the majority of them weren't even trained properly to handle themselves, which makes sense since the mages were locked up most of the time. Hawke's name also becomes a rallying cry for the mages who rise up to free themselves from the Chantry.
[quote]Tzarene wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall the title of Champion entitling me to support the senseless murder of innocent people. I'm not going to stand idly by while templars are murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people because Meredith gave an order. I'm not going to help murder massess of innocent people. If I think genocide is wrong and murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people shouldn't be done, I can see why Hawke would stand against Meredith and the Order of Templars to protect the mages.[/quote]
Again, refer to innocent discussion above. There's no genocide here. That's an illusion that I personally believe you've made up to convince yourself in a case for mage sympathy. There's restoring public order and in Orsino's specific case, getting vengeance (or justice however you wish to view that). To be absolutely clear on this, siding with the templars =/= siding with Meredith. In fact, when/if you chose to spare those mages that didn't use blood mage at the gallows, you have already proven so. I refuse to stand with Orsino because he delves into forbidden magic, indirectly was the causation of killing your mother, and as First Enchanter, does not make himself the best example for his Circle. In fact, his actions make the case that the Kirkwall circle was beyond help and the Right of Anullment decision almost believable even without Anders' involvement. [/quote]
Genocide is:
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Anders refers to the mages as his people. Bethany refers to the mages as her people. Meredith is ordering the murder of every person who is a mage - a group of people with magical ability. What Meredith orders is, in fact, genocide. I refuse to condemn every man, woman, and child to death because of the actions of one man, and I don't support genocide. Meredith's Right of Tranquility = genocide of Kirkwall mages.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 mars 2011 - 07:30 .
#47
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:27
TexasToast712
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Anders was overreacting. The only time I saw a hint of rape of Circle Mages was from that Ser Alrik Templar right before I killed him during Ander's Tranquil Solution quest.MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Full stop.
Alain was raped?
What?
>:|
Yeah, apparently there was a party we weren't invited to.
Aside from one Anders comment I missed everything about the raping going on.
Modifié par TexasToast712, 21 mars 2011 - 07:27 .
#48
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:31
LobselVith8
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TexasToast712 wrote...
Anders was overreacting. The only time I saw a hint of rape of Circle Mages was from that Ser Alrik Templar right before I killed him during Ander's Tranquil Solution quest.
Given that another mage admits to being raped and threatened with tranquility if he says anything, Anders clearly wasn't overreacting.
#49
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:34
TexasToast712
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When? I only remember the little girl that Ser Alrik is about to Tranquilize.LobselVith8 wrote...
TexasToast712 wrote...
Anders was overreacting. The only time I saw a hint of rape of Circle Mages was from that Ser Alrik Templar right before I killed him during Ander's Tranquil Solution quest.
Given that another mage admits to being raped and threatened with tranquility if he says anything, Anders clearly wasn't overreacting.
#50
Posté 21 mars 2011 - 07:36
DaringMoosejaw
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LobselVith8 wrote...
TexasToast712 wrote...
Anders was overreacting. The only time I saw a hint of rape of Circle Mages was from that Ser Alrik Templar right before I killed him during Ander's Tranquil Solution quest.
Given that another mage admits to being raped and threatened with tranquility if he says anything, Anders clearly wasn't overreacting.
Wow, when was this? I didn't notice any admittance of Male-on-MALE rape and I figured the presence of it would've been noted far sooner.
As for which side to pick, I went with the mages since Meredith was off her rocker but as I went through the place I had the strong desire to kill them all off since the mages kept acting dumber and dumber. They'd repeatedly end up turning to blood magic to 'save' them, but then immediately go hostile to everything and I'd have to kill them anyway.
