231 réponses à ce sujet

[Camenae]

The whole point of the story is that NEITHER the mages or the Templars were blameless. Do not equate saying "mages aren't exactly innocent" with saying "Templars are innocent". Yes SOME Templars were doing horrible things to mages, but I don't think that justifies ALL the bad things that it's clear some mages are indeed doing. Orsino certainly was not going about helping his subordinate mages in the right way. As an earlier poster pointed out, in which job is your boss NOT responsible for supervising you? You don't want that responsibility, don't be the first enchanter.

[Legbiter]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

My two cents about Orsino and his dabbling in forbidden arts: I think every First Enchanter is the one mage who deals with explaining and guarding things like that, it's his/her duty as the wisest of mages to deal with dangerous artifacts.

Well, one other sin you can lay at Orsino's feet is that he was a terrible First Enchanter who completely failed to quell the rising number of rebellious blood mages in his Circle. Probably because he was apparently the best one at it anyway.

He reminds me of the Viscount in this respect.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Well, one other sin you can lay at Orsino's feet is that he was a terrible First Enchanter

That he was.
But as about blood mages - maybe it's not his "sin", but a sin of Kirkwall's ancestors and creators. Cause as it goes - Kirkwall was a mecca of slavery, and slavery could be the thing which growned all the suffering, evil intentions and weakened the veil, thus opening a door for demons. Blood magic was literally everywhere in the game, from lowly mages to nobles, and Kirkwall was a rotten city stuffed with anger and an bodyless spirit in a large glass case selling powerful magic items in the sewers.

But I feel like I am not protecting mage-likers here, but trying to make an excuse for poor design choices and lazy writing, which actually Bioware should do, ehh..

[Legbiter]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

But I feel like I am not protecting mage-likers here, but trying to make an excuse for poor design choices and lazy writing, which actually Bioware should do, ehh..

Not really bagging on Bioware for the writing. I like the idea of utterly incompetent leaders. Just stating what seems like a fact to me, Orsino should have been down in the Gallows haggling over the price of a wand rather than sitting in the First Enchanter's chair.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Just stating what seems like a fact to me, Orsino should have been down in the Gallows haggling over the price of a wand rather than sitting in the First Enchanter's chair.

Well I feel sad for him and want to hug him, because those who drawn scetches for him and modelled that gorgeous wand deserve a better explained character with a larger role in all the chain of events. Like, if Orsino and Meredith would act and play as quest-suppliers from the beginning of the game, I could make my mind about how effective their leadership was, but for what's their worth now, I just feel sorry for characters that did't get enough attention of game's camera man..
..maybe Varric hated them.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 22 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[Lolhaxx]

I hated both sides. Was very disappointed when I had to choose a side even though I said I'm not picking a side lol. Was very annoyed by the mages' ending and it felt quite satisfying to side with the templars. Only good thing I liked about the mages' ending is I got to slaughter Fenris.

Overall, if given the choice, I would've burned down the whole city and killed every single templar and mage because their bickering just pissed me off.

[SupidSeep]

IMO the choice to annul the Circle will be a lot more muddled IF part of the Circle (fringe elements or blood mages hidden within) actually had a hand in the destruction of the Chantry as opposed to Anders the Apostate.

[Lisa_H]

Legbiter wrote...

Well, one other sin you can lay at Orsino's feet is that he was a terrible First Enchanter who completely failed to quell the rising number of rebellious blood mages in his Circle. Probably because he was apparently the best one at it anyway.

He reminds me of the Viscount in this respect.

I think much could have been avoided had Orsino been better at his job. Makes me think it would probably had been better for everyone if mage-Hawke had been dragged to the Gallows once she was discovered. I believe she would have made a fine first enchanter.

[Esmerella]

I have played through a few times and it is interesting that when I supported the mages I was not able to save a one.  when you are fighting meredith the only people left were templars. 

When I supported the templars I was able to save 3 mages. So if you truly want to save mages support the templars

[LobselVith8]

Esmerella wrote...

I have played through a few times and it is interesting that when I supported the mages I was not able to save a one.  when you are fighting meredith the only people left were templars. 

When I supported the templars I was able to save 3 mages. So if you truly want to save mages support the templars

You do save mages. Don't you remember the mages who fight alongside you in the city against the templars? Also, Varric addresses that there were many survivors; that's who got the word out to the remaining thirteen Circles (or twelve, since I'm not sure if Starkhaven counted as the thirteenth or not) and why the mages ended up rebelling against the Chantry and the templars. I don't think supporting genocide is going to lead to more mages surviving the Right of Anulment.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 mars 2011 - 05:58 .

[sammcl]

Looks like the phrase of the thread is "men, women and children" quit saying it like that, it's annoying

[LobselVith8]

sammcl wrote...

Looks like the phrase of the thread is "men, women and children" quit saying it like that, it's annoying

It's a factual statement. Knight-Commander Meredith orders the templars, "As Knight-Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed -- immediately!"

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 mars 2011 - 08:40 .

[p95h]

I found that choosing the templars when playing a mage, and choosing mages when playing warrior or rogue was the most satisfying. As a mage supporting the templars, you stand as an example of reasonable compromise. The fact that Meredith goes bonkers on you afterwards is just icing on the cake. Down with all fanatics I say. (Thank goodness Anders was available to smite when BW took away my opportunity to smite Petrice!)

[Babi]

The real and only way for a mage perma-win is for them to breed like rabbits, therefore making the whole Templar/Chantry oversight numerically impossible.

Good thing my fem-hawke-mage ran away with Anders. Weather permitting, that's like 10+ mage babies. XD

[tee_bird]

After Meredith decided to kill all the mages in the circle, I knew who to side with. She made seeing the templars in good light very hard.

[sammcl]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's a factual statement. Knight-Commander Meredith orders the templars, "As Knight-Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed -- immediately!"

You misunderstood me, I completely agree with the point your making, I just can't stand that phrase. It's just used to make something sound worse, genocide is already horrific, you don't need to repeatedly use "men, women and children" we all know the group "mages" consists of those subcategories, neglecting one of the categories would not make genocide at all better

[AlexXIV]

sammcl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's a factual statement. Knight-Commander Meredith orders the templars, "As Knight-Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed -- immediately!"

You misunderstood me, I completely agree with the point your making, I just can't stand that phrase. It's just used to make something sound worse, genocide is already horrific, you don't need to repeatedly use "men, women and children" we all know the group "mages" consists of those subcategories, neglecting one of the categories would not make genocide at all better

Well if you see some people argue here they seem to believe all the mages in the circle are bloodmages and of the worst kind. So you just have to make a point who they are going to annull. Same people who call Anders a terrorrist for killing innocents who were in the chantry at the time it blew up support Meredith in her genocidal crusade. If there is any logic behind that kind of reasoning it is 'angry mob' logic.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 mars 2011 - 01:03 .

[sammcl]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if you see some people argue here they seem to believe all the mages in the circle are bloodmages and of the worst kind. So you just have to make a point who they are going to annull. Same people who call Anders a terrorrist for killing innocents who were in the chantry at the time it blew up support Meredith in her genocidal crusade. If there is any logic behind that kind of reasoning it is 'angry mob' logic.

Yep, I understand the need for a counterpoint but being a man, woman or child and being a blood mage are not mutually exclusive states of existence. Honestly, it didn't bother me in LobselVith8's first post, but in almost every subsequent post when he/she used the phrase over and over it was like teeny, tiny men, women and children (oh no!) crawled into my ear and started tickling the inside of my head!

Again, absolutely agree with defending the mages, just that phrase bothers me Something simpler and less "Current Affairs programme-y" like "slaughter of innocents" gets the job done. Mix it up a little

[Camenae]

Babi wrote...

The real and only way for a mage perma-win is for them to breed like rabbits, therefore making the whole Templar/Chantry oversight numerically impossible.

Good thing my fem-hawke-mage ran away with Anders. Weather permitting, that's like 10+ mage babies. XD

I thought about that, and then I remembered what Alistair said about Grey Wardens having a hard time reproducing.  It's looking iffier and iffier: I live with Anders for three years and nothing happens...MAYBE IT'S ME : (

[AlexXIV]

Camenae wrote...

Babi wrote...

The real and only way for a mage perma-win is for them to breed like rabbits, therefore making the whole Templar/Chantry oversight numerically impossible.

Good thing my fem-hawke-mage ran away with Anders. Weather permitting, that's like 10+ mage babies. XD

I thought about that, and then I remembered what Alistair said about Grey Wardens having a hard time reproducing.  It's looking iffier and iffier: I live with Anders for three years and nothing happens...MAYBE IT'S ME : (

Hawke's mom had 3 healthy children. So I guess it's not Hawke.

[Esmerella]

Let me say most of my playthroughs I side with the mages.  You can feel better doing it. That said there are valid reasons to support the templars.

This is a dark fantasy.  Mages are not respected or looked at as enlightened, they are feared.   The circles are in place as much to protect the mages from the populace as much as to control them.   Given that fear when the mob learns that their beloved religious leader, a women of tolerance and love was killed by a mage, do you think they will only hunt the one responsible?  They would want to kill all mages. That is mob mentality.

Look at the champion. If not a mage he/she only has Bethany and their father as examples of decent mages.  Her companions Anders and Merrill are definitely  questionable.  Almost every mage she runs into is a monster.  Getting caught up in the fervor and horror of the moment they may even agree with Meredith.  They have 3 choices to openly fight Meredith siding with the mages, to try to talk sense into the other templars by siding with the templars or to buy Merediths version that the circle is beyond saving and eradicate a danger to your city.

Also I take issue with the term genocide.  The annulment is mass murder which is horrendous enough but not genocide. Other circles are not under Merediths control so those mages are not affected.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Camenae wrote...

Babi wrote...

The real and only way for a mage perma-win is for them to breed like rabbits, therefore making the whole Templar/Chantry oversight numerically impossible.

Good thing my fem-hawke-mage ran away with Anders. Weather permitting, that's like 10+ mage babies. XD

I thought about that, and then I remembered what Alistair said about Grey Wardens having a hard time reproducing. It's looking iffier and iffier: I live with Anders for three years and nothing happens...MAYBE IT'S ME : (

I bet it's Justice. Who knows what he's doing in there.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 24 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[Babi]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Babi wrote...

The real and only way for a mage perma-win is for them to breed like rabbits, therefore making the whole Templar/Chantry oversight numerically impossible.

Good thing my fem-hawke-mage ran away with Anders. Weather permitting, that's like 10+ mage babies. XD

I thought about that, and then I remembered what Alistair said about Grey Wardens having a hard time reproducing. It's looking iffier and iffier: I live with Anders for three years and nothing happens...MAYBE IT'S ME : (

I bet it's Justice. Who knows what he's doing in there.

You're probably right... However, if Anders can treat Isabela's diseases, he can probably make a potency potion. If not, he can make millions scamming people. Win.

[awwnuts07]

I side with the mages after I ice Anders cuz my little sister is in the circle. Also, I can't stand religious zealots who think they have a "divine right" to do whatever the hell they please. I feel it's just way more satisfying to buck the establishment.

[Furtled]

The game does an absolutely cracking job of humanising the Templars - but Meredith's solution was just too extreme.

Yes it's possible I'm left with doubts about Orsino (although really O. could be anyone) from that letter and have had run ins with blood mages, but without knowing how many mages are even in the Gallows (let alone meeting them or getting their perspective/seeing them up to something dodgy), siding with Meredith at the end feels too much like condoning the outright murder of 'innocents' for crimes they had no obvious connection to.

If Meredith hadn't been there when the choice was made (and if her solution hadn't been so extreme) it would be a much tougher decision because both sides are at fault on one level or another. I personally didn't want to free the mages entirely or destroy the templars (although the system of oversight could do with some work/loosening), but in the end I went with protecting people who were both citizens of Kirkwall and (to me) innocent until proven guilty.

Modifié par Furtled, 24 mars 2011 - 06:09 .