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[solution_nine]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Yes I understand it just seems a bit weird because, well Anders would have left Karl or vice versa....and Anders doesn't really seem the type ot leave someone he cares for in search of greener pastures I guess. Unless Karl left Anders, then does that mean him getting upset about Karl is just someone who was shunted and still has lingering feelings even several years later or have they reconciled or....? i mean if he was single but still had lingering feelings for his first love maybe that makes sense why he moved onto hawke so fast but the other way....honestly it doesn't matter either way but i do feel a little left out that as a femhawke i am missing out on a chunk of characterization now.

Their relationship never gets many details, just that it was there. On the one hand, maybe they were teenagers, and grew out of one-another*, but did so amicably? Or maybe, once Anders started trying to escape every three days, they realized that they couldn't continue their relationship. The bottom line is that there's just not enough information available




*No pun intended *snigger*

My take on it was that Karl was obviously much older, and it was a quick fling but they remained friends. And what's so "weird" about him not marrying the person he lost his virginity to? It's not quite THAT much of a fantasy game!

Besides, it's been literally years since he escaped the Circle, so I'm sure he's moved on by this point. He's still entitled to be upset over him being made Tranquil, though, isn't he? Yeesh.

Can someone who frequents the Fenris/Isabela/Merrill threads enlighten me if those three are being given such a hard time over this?

[MasterSamson88]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Purdicus wrote...

Baaleos wrote...
1. A Girl wont want to romance a gay guy.

Not true! 

Indeed! Grace was in love with Will.

Well he's also bi is he not? 

[xZitx]

Well, Isabela is bi, that's for sure. Merril and Fenris are hawksexual, while Anders isn't 100% sure, but I think he's bi, too. Thought the whole Karl/Anders thing would've been nice to see as FHawke, would've added a bit of drama to the quest. I kept thinking "huh...who the **** is justin...ehm Karl?"
Wanted to know more about their relationship/friendship.

[Addai]

solution_nine wrote...
Can someone who frequents the Fenris/Isabela/Merrill threads enlighten me if those three are being given such a hard time over this?

Not that I've seen, but probably because with Fenris or Merrill there is no discussion anywhere about their history or preferences, and with Isabela everyone knew from Origins that she'll hump anything that moves.  Anders is the only LI where there's anything to debate about.

Some of us discussed this before the game came out, and I said I much prefer that characters be fleshed out rather than made subjective to player whims.  But the devs decided that player choice was more important this game and at the same time that they didn't want all the NPCs being openly bisexual.  One of the drawbacks is that there is no canon with them in regards to sexuality.  Does a tree fall in the woods if no one hears it?  You decide.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 mars 2011 - 05:46 .

[Dunizel]

solution_nine wrote...


Can someone who frequents the Fenris/Isabela/Merrill threads enlighten me if those three are being given such a hard time over this?

Not really, at least not in the Fenris thread.

My guess is that everyone knew from the start that Isabela was bi from Origins. Fenris, not much to talk about, he could be everything since he doesn't even remember his life before he got the lyrium markings.

But everyone was convinced that Anders was absolutely straight from his comments and jokes in Awakening. And now they have somewhat a hard time trying to picture him as bi. Hence the "he is gay with a m!Hawke, straight if he is with f!Hawke". Moreover I think it would have been more clear if he just mentioned his relationship with Karl in any case, so that there wouldn't be this confusion. 

[berelinde]

It's a video game. Every player will form opinions of each character as he or she sees fit, regardless of what the person playing the game next door thinks. This impression will contain facutal elements, but in truth, it's still subjective. If you think Anders is bi for both male and female Hawke, he is bi for both male and female Hawke. Your neighbor may disagree, and you are both right.

Sexual orientation is a fact, a part of a person's identity like having blue eyes or a crown-shaped birthmark. Were Anders a real person, you could ask him, but with no way to ask him, the best the player can do is think about the NPCs presence in the game and form his own impression. About a fact.

Any discussion about a controversial NPC will always come down to a quest to find "The One True NPC," a canonical certainty that can be held up as an example to prove why one person is right and another is wrong, but it's a doomed endeavor. Your perception of the character is just as valid as mine, which is just as valid as the person's down the street. It is probable that the definitive Anders, or any other game NPC, exists only in the individual player's mind.

But no, I don't think Justice made Anders gay. Whether you believe that Anders was never interested in males (played a hetero female champion), always interested in males (he lied in Awakenings), or is bi, sharing head space with a spirit is unlikely to change his orientation.

[Skybound2X]

Dunizel wrote...

But everyone was convinced that Anders was absolutely straight from his comments and jokes in Awakening.

Am I the only one that was POSITIVE Anders was bisexual when playing Awakening? Sure his more overt comments are towards females, but I remember there being some hints towards Nathanial, and all those comments about how useful robes were in the Circle for easy access, and stuff? He kind of made the Circle sound like a free-love movement to me, so I didn't get the impression that he was only interested in females. When it came out that he would be an LI for both male and female Hawkes in DA2, it seemed like a no-brainer to me.

And then, in DA2, even if you are playing a F!Hawke and he doesn't tell you about Karl, he makes comments about everyone kissing everyone at the Circle (again witht the free-love Circle!), and it seemed (to me) like there are plenty of instances where it's shown that his preferences are pretty fluid. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I know that before I even KNEW about Karl having been a previous lover of Anders, I thought that was likely the case, just from how he spoke to him, and reacted to him.

*shrugs*

Modifié par Skybound2X, 21 mars 2011 - 06:02 .

[solution_nine]

Skybound2X wrote...

Dunizel wrote...

But everyone was convinced that Anders was absolutely straight from his comments and jokes in Awakening.

Am I the only one that was POSITIVE Anders was bisexual when playing Awakening? Sure his more overt comments are towards females, but I remember there being some hints towards Nathanial, and all those comments about how useful robes were in the Circle for easy access, and stuff? He kind of made the Circle sound like a free-love movement to me, so I didn't get the impression that he was only interested in females. When it came out that he would be an LI for both male and female Hawkes in DA2, it seemed like a no-brainer to me.

And then, in DA2, even if you are playing a F!Hawke and he doesn't tell you about Karl, he makes comments about everyone kissing everyone at the Circle (again witht the free-love Circle!), and it seemed (to me) like there are plenty of instances where it's shown that his preferences are pretty fluid. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I know that before I even KNEW about Karl having been a previous lover of Anders, I thought that was likely the case, just from how he spoke to him, and reacted to him.

*shrugs*

Oh, totally. He set off my gaydar as soon as he showed up, ha.

I think what's really killing me here is that nobody seems offended by Isabela, Fenris, and Merrill, but Anders is causing a huge stink. And for what? What does it matter? The guy himself states that he "has always believed that you fall in love with a whole person, not just a body." That should settle the issue, IMO. He outright says that what body parts you have don't matter to him! That seems like a well-balanced outlook to have, if you ask me.

The entire debate rubs me the wrong way because he's this regular human male, and people seem to want to attribute his ~deviant~ orientation to something else, because OBVIOUSLY a regular human male wouldn't ever go both ways. Obviously. You've got to be an elf or a girl for it to be socially acceptable.

hurp durp

[Dunizel]

Oh well, I'm glad his comment and tone with Nathaniel about "not wearing robes when he is nude" weren't notice just by me. And yeah, that comment about the "everyone was kissing everyone" in Ferelden Circle was fun too. But still, let's say that not everyone, but the vast majority of people just focused on his jokes on pretty girls and concluded he was straight only.

You know, it was a smart move to use Anders again in DA2, because we felt attached to him knowing him from Awakening. Still, if it was some other new random mage and not Anders, I guess there wouldn't be so many problems...

[solution_nine]

What's irritating me is that to some people, the very notion that he's bi is perceived as "tarnishing" or "ruining" his character. Just.... what? Is Isabela "ruined" because she's up for anything?

Oh wait, though, she has ovaries, so that makes it suddenly okay. I FORGOT.

[SurelyForth]

solution_nine wrote...
Oh, totally. He set off my gaydar as soon as he showed up, ha.

I think what's really killing me here is that nobody seems offended by Isabela, Fenris, and Merrill, but Anders is causing a huge stink. And for what? What does it matter? The guy himself states that he "has always believed that you fall in love with a whole person, not just a body." That should settle the issue, IMO. He outright says that what body parts you have don't matter to him! That seems like a well-balanced outlook to have, if you ask me.

The entire debate rubs me the wrong way because he's this regular human male, and people seem to want to attribute his ~deviant~ orientation to something else, because OBVIOUSLY a regular human male wouldn't ever go both ways. Obviously. You've got to be an elf or a girl for it to be socially acceptable.

hurp durp

But he ONLY says that for male Hawke. So clarification is needed by some people as to whether he's canon bi-sexual or just into men in a world where Hawke is a man. To twist Addai's riddle- does Anders do Karl if there's not a Male Hawke around to tell? 

And I don't think it's just that people are uptight about a human male going both ways, it's just that the way they've handled this particular character is different from what they did with Zev and Leliana, where they always talked about their previous same-sex lovers to the Warden regardless of gender.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 21 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Addai]

solution_nine wrote...
Oh, totally. He set off my gaydar as soon as he showed up, ha.

I think what's really killing me here is that nobody seems offended by Isabela, Fenris, and Merrill, but Anders is causing a huge stink. And for what? What does it matter? The guy himself states that he "has always believed that you fall in love with a whole person, not just a body." That should settle the issue, IMO. He outright says that what body parts you have don't matter to him! That seems like a well-balanced outlook to have, if you ask me.

The entire debate rubs me the wrong way because he's this regular human male, and people seem to want to attribute his ~deviant~ orientation to something else, because OBVIOUSLY a regular human male wouldn't ever go both ways. Obviously. You've got to be an elf or a girl for it to be socially acceptable.

hurp durp

I definitely had him figured as bi from Awakening.

I think Anders is causing a stink because he overtly flirts with the PC whether male or female, and a lot of people assumed he was straight.  Fenris doesn't hit on a male player.  Isabela hits on you even as a female, but we all knew that from Origins.  That little lecture about body parts only comes up with a male, so some people see it as shoving homosexuality in the male player's face.  I know, I know...but honestly, I don't care much for the lecture, either.  I preferred Zevran just saying "this is the way it is" without trying to justify.  It sounds like the writer inserting modern sensibility and lecturing the player, when it would have been enough just to say that the Circle is more open than the society as a whole.  Probably I'm sensitive because I happen to disagree that gender is incidental and that we're amorphous beings.

Edit:  But the idea that Justice turned him gay... lolol.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 mars 2011 - 06:58 .

[solution_nine]

SurelyForth wrote...
But he ONLY says that for male Hawke. So clarification is needed by some people as to whether he's canon bi-sexual or just into men in a world where Hawke is a man. To twist Addai's riddle- does Anders do Karl if there's not a Male Hawke around to tell? 

Uh, yes? I would say yes, the past still happened, but I can see why he wouldn't bring it up necessarily if he was dating a girl. And Leliana never explicitly tells us that she did anything with Marjorlaine, for that matter, though anyone with half a brain could read between the lines there.

Addai67 wrote...
It sounds like the writer inserting modern sensibility and lecturing the player, when it would have been enough just to say that the Circle is more open than the society as a whole.  Probably I'm sensitive because I happen to disagree that gender is incidental and that we're amorphous beings.

Edit:  But the idea that Justice turned him gay... lolol.

It's not just the Circle, man. It's all of Thedas. Nobody makes a big deal about it in the game; it's those of us out here past the fourth wall who flip out over it.

AND I KNOW RIGHT. I've heard this argument more than once! Asking Justice what he thinks about the matter would be like asking him if he prefers Mac or Windows. I don't think he cares, or even understands. On the contrary, there are people who are saying that Justice should... I don't know, slap him on the wrist for being with guys. Like that's somehow injust.

Modifié par solution_nine, 21 mars 2011 - 07:01 .

[Addai]

solution_nine wrote...
It's not just the Circle, man. It's all of Thedas. Nobody makes a big deal about it in the game; it's those of us out here past the fourth wall who flip out over it.

It's still a fairly traditional society, even though there aren't the religious stigmas of real medieval history.  But the larger point being, if it's not a big deal then why have Anders making some loud protestation about his philosophy.  I guess because there are acknowledgements of prejudices existing, the same way Fenris assumes Hawke would mind him being an elven former slave.

[solution_nine]

Addai67 wrote...
It's still a fairly traditional society, even though there aren't the religious stigmas of real medieval history.  But the larger point being, if it's not a big deal then why have Anders making some loud protestation about his philosophy.  I guess because there are acknowledgements of prejudices existing, the same way Fenris assumes Hawke would mind him being an elven former slave.

I would think it's more for the player's sake than because Thedas is inherently against anything that's not heteronormative. Right after he says that, he gives the player the opportunity to say if he's making them uncomfortable or not.

[panamakira]

Ehh~
I never got a vibe of Anders being gay or bisexual in Awakening so I do think they made fitting changes for the sake of the game not his character in DA2. Also when you romance him as a female, he never talks about having being in a relationship with Karl. In fact, we found out only if we romance him as a male which leads me to believe he is supposed to be straight when you're female otherwise why omit his relationship with Karl?

[solution_nine]

panamakira wrote...

Ehh~
I never got a vibe of Anders being gay or bisexual in Awakening so I do think they made fitting changes for the sake of the game not his character in DA2. Also when you romance him as a female, he never talks about having being in a relationship with Karl. In fact, we found out only if we romance him as a male which leads me to believe he is supposed to be straight when you're female otherwise why omit his relationship with Karl?

This is the mentality I honest to god do not understand.

So if Merrill and Fenris, during an opposite-sex relationship, don't ever specifically bring up the point that "Oh hey, I wouldn't mind sleeping with someone who has the same genitalia as me," that means that they're straight by default?

Isabela talks up a storm about all the people of all races and genders that she's slept with, and nobody is giving her crap for it. Even Zevran, while he was the recipient of plenty of hatred, did not seem to get this much confusion and misunderstanding and anger.

[Blacklash93]

It's most likely not subjective. Karl was his boyfriend once and that's that. It's a set part of his backstory whatever gender you're playing.

And always take wiki information with a huge grain of salt if no direct source is given. That particular claim was pulled out of nowhere.

[Blacklash93]

panamakira wrote...

Ehh~
I never got a vibe of Anders being gay or bisexual in Awakening so I do think they made fitting changes for the sake of the game not his character in DA2. Also when you romance him as a female, he never talks about having being in a relationship with Karl. In fact, we found out only if we romance him as a male which leads me to believe he is supposed to be straight when you're female otherwise why omit his relationship with Karl?

What reason would he have to bring that up to a female Hawke?

Just because he didn't mention it to a particular gender doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 mars 2011 - 12:23 .

[solution_nine]

Blacklash93 wrote...
That particular claim was pulled out of nowhere.

So it seems.

I love that people really believe that wishing away part of his past will make it so. The guy hooked up with Karl, regardless of whether or not he chooses to share that with Hawke.

As a writer, this is why I dig and dig and replay everything until I can root out every bit of important characterization I can. Playing through with only one romance option (friendship or rivalry, male or female) doesn't give you the full picture.

[Trophonius]

solution_nine wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...
That particular claim was pulled out of nowhere.

So it seems.

I love that people really believe that wishing away part of his past will make it so. The guy hooked up with Karl, regardless of whether or not he chooses to share that with Hawke.

As a writer, this is why I dig and dig and replay everything until I can root out every bit of important characterization I can. Playing through with only one romance option (friendship or rivalry, male or female) doesn't give you the full picture.

I have to agree with this. Same could be said if his past lover was a woman. I'm not going to brush it off and pretend it never happened because I feel it would've disrespected an aspect of who he is. At least with that background in mind, it serves as one motivation/catalyst for his personal vendetta against the Order.

[solution_nine]

Trophonius wrote...

I have to agree with this. Same could be said if his past lover was a woman. I'm not going to brush it off and pretend it never happened because I feel it would've disrespected an aspect of who he is. At least with that background in mind, it serves as one motivation/catalyst for his personal vendetta against the Order.

Exactly. It would be just as foolish to disregard any relationships he'd had with women, of which I'm sure there are some. (Namaya, maybe?) It makes no sense to ignore or downplay an aspect of canon just because it makes you uncomfortable.

Modifié par solution_nine, 22 mars 2011 - 12:46 .

[Thiefy]

solution_nine wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Yes I understand it just seems a bit weird because, well Anders would have left Karl or vice versa....and Anders doesn't really seem the type ot leave someone he cares for in search of greener pastures I guess. Unless Karl left Anders, then does that mean him getting upset about Karl is just someone who was shunted and still has lingering feelings even several years later or have they reconciled or....? i mean if he was single but still had lingering feelings for his first love maybe that makes sense why he moved onto hawke so fast but the other way....honestly it doesn't matter either way but i do feel a little left out that as a femhawke i am missing out on a chunk of characterization now.

Their relationship never gets many details, just that it was there. On the one hand, maybe they were teenagers, and grew out of one-another*, but did so amicably? Or maybe, once Anders started trying to escape every three days, they realized that they couldn't continue their relationship. The bottom line is that there's just not enough information available




*No pun intended *snigger*

My take on it was that Karl was obviously much older, and it was a quick fling but they remained friends. And what's so "weird" about him not marrying the person he lost his virginity to? It's not quite THAT much of a fantasy game!

Besides, it's been literally years since he escaped the Circle, so I'm sure he's moved on by this point. He's still entitled to be upset over him being made Tranquil, though, isn't he? Yeesh.

Can someone who frequents the Fenris/Isabela/Merrill threads enlighten me if those three are being given such a hard time over this?

Ugh, are you getting upset over my comment? Because I think I was asking something perfectly valid. I never said that Anders had to marry anyone (which couldn't happen anyway because he's a mage, and he would have to be a successful apostate like Papa Amell for that to work) only that it was weird how things play out since once he falls, he falls hard. Who he was dating had nothing to do with that, I would have asked the same question if Karl were female.

[casedawgz]

It does seem to be a bit of a retcon. He has a line in Awakenings about how all he wants to do is settle down with a nice girl and shoot lightning at people. Not saying he's not bisexual NOW, just that he wasn't written that way in Awakening.