163 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Mephisto]

Just a few recycled areas would not destroy the overall experience, but I surely expected more for this title in 2011.

The big problem is that all the recycled areas further add to the feeling of a rushed action game, and piles on top of the other things I didn't like about the game. If the overall area/level design was more varied and deep, I might have tolerated playing it like an action RPG without it feeling so bland and repetative too soon.

[Prowler]

OriginalTibs wrote...

Not at all. My house is the same today as it was, and in fact I would feel rather disriented were it radically changed each time I came home from work.

My hometown and the places in it changed only gradually, and even then what was there was largely still there beneath any transitory changes in the decor.

To have a tale set in one city and its environs it would be far more immersion-breaking were it to morph on me every time I turned a corner or looked the other way. If I left treasure on the floor of a cave I would hope it would still be there when I returned.

By that logic every house you've ever visited looks just like yours; along with every beach, trail and park you've ever seen in your hometown.

With regards to the game, the events at the end of the second act should have changed how the city looks in the third act. You don't go through something like that and simply sweep up. And not that it really needs mentioning again but every secret/mysterious cave looked like every other secret/mysterious cave.

[Deified Data]

Do copy-pasted dungeons ruin immersion for me? No more than they did in Origins.

When you get down to it, there's little difference between reusing the same wall texture/corridor again and again and literally copy-pasting the entire dungeon. Bioware just followed its current level design strategy to its logical conclusion.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Haven't played DA2 yet, but I don't like recycled terrain. One of the things that set my teeth on edge playing ME1 was finding myself in the same environments and buildings over and over again. ME2 was more varied in its terrain, and when it did recycle environments, it did so with much more subtlety.

[Lee T]

The repeating dungeons do not bother me (it's not like Bioware ever made a game that wasn't interconnected dungeons). I was already not that bothered by ME1's "dungeons" which were way worse than this (I really can't understand why they choose to go this way while the Mass Effect team was hard at work making different locations for ME2).

However there's no way to forgive how bland the city is. It should have been far more detailed and it should have evolved through times, preferably based on relevant decisions you made during the game.

[Meltemph]

Do copied dungeons/locations completely ruin immersion for you?

That word "immersion" is used to much for what people actually mean, but anyway... It ruins the side quests and makes what would have been an improvement in the DA series, into what was just painfully repetitive and overly predictable. Even on nightmare, the thrill of the fights get stale because no matter what those 5 dungeons, the mobs are always in the same position and with the same predictable set up, that makes it more of a memory fight then of fun with the combat.

[Blastback]

It doesn't ruin the game, but it knocks it down a notch. Or several. When every other level is exactly the same, I wind up thinking "oh, this place again. Woope" And I lose intrest in the adventure. It killed the excitement and sense of exploration.

The waves were similar. I knew after a few fights that okay, one wave is down, that means 2 more before I'm done.

[Pandaman102]

OriginalTibs wrote...

Not at all. My house is the same today as it was, and in fact I would feel rather disriented were it radically changed each time I came home from work.

My hometown and the places in it changed only gradually, and even then what was there was largely still there beneath any transitory changes in the decor.

To have a tale set in one city and its environs it would be far more immersion-breaking were it to morph on me every time I turned a corner or looked the other way. If I left treasure on the floor of a cave I would hope it would still be there when I returned.

Did you read the topic? It's not about your house or city not changing, it's about the cloned maps. Or are you really pulling a straw man to defend how every cave - be it on top of a mountain, under the city, or next to the sea - all share one layout despite claiming to be completely different locations?

[Persephone]

No. I don't like them but I'm not too bothered by them either. Too much in love with Fenris atm.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

No. I didn't like them, but I am not one of those people whose immersion is ruined by the slightest things.

[Alelsa]

This was my major complaint about the game, but it didn't ruin it for me - I just expected better from Bioware and was surprised they had taken what to my mind was a step back from the old NWN tilesets, which at least you could arrange differently for each map. I don't mind copy/pasting so much if its copy, paste, rotate it, and move that bit over there.

But it wasn't a huge part of the game for me, so I just got on and enjoyed playing it despite it.

[aphelion002]

Do you guys remember a DA:O trailer where a game designer showed off the level design of the Sacred Ashes, explaining with pride the lore behind the art as well as the emotions they wished to evoke in the player who explores that area with the same time?

They didn't do it for this game.

[OriginalTibs]

So much negativity.

The phenomena is a characteristic of the changed culture we share, sad to say. I think many of the changes in attitude may be a consequence of the way parents nurtured the young with an overemphasis on unearned 'self-esteem' , together with a selectively modified Ayn Rand moral philosophy that left out the 'enlightened' part and kept the idolization of selfishness as guiding light.

It will be interesting times if the economic infrastructure breaks down and they discover the need for the 'enlightened' part of self-interest.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 23 mars 2011 - 12:21 .

[OriginalTibs]

Pandaman102 wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

Not at all. My house is the same today as it was, and in fact I would feel rather disriented were it radically changed each time I came home from work.

My hometown and the places in it changed only gradually, and even then what was there was largely still there beneath any transitory changes in the decor.

To have a tale set in one city and its environs it would be far more immersion-breaking were it to morph on me every time I turned a corner or looked the other way. If I left treasure on the floor of a cave I would hope it would still be there when I returned.

Did you read the topic? It's not about your house or city not changing, it's about the cloned maps. Or are you really pulling a straw man to defend how every cave - be it on top of a mountain, under the city, or next to the sea - all share one layout despite claiming to be completely different locations?

I don't use straw man arguments. Go into a cave and explore it, then leave. Return to the cave in that location another day and see how much it has changed. It will be roughly the same. That is realistinc and immersive. Same with your neighborhood: it doesn't switch around much, and if it did that would break your immersion. How is it you expect Kirkwall to change? How is it you expect a dungeon to change?

Unlike you I do see differences in layout in different caves. Sometimes they do use the same construct it is true, but there are also different constructs used. There are tiles reused, just as there are in every game with graphics. You didn't have such a problem with Neverwinter nights did you? Yet anyone familiar with the Auora toolset will remember how many tiles were reused there too, and that was a fabulous tool no one complained over.

No, I stand against those who are trying to argue that DA2 is inferior because of such superficiality and will not admit value only to make themselves feel superior somehow.

It is the complainers who have construed things in order to complain. The setting of the story is just fine.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 23 mars 2011 - 12:35 .

[Blastback]

OriginalTibs wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

Not at all. My house is the same today as it was, and in fact I would feel rather disriented were it radically changed each time I came home from work.

My hometown and the places in it changed only gradually, and even then what was there was largely still there beneath any transitory changes in the decor.

To have a tale set in one city and its environs it would be far more immersion-breaking were it to morph on me every time I turned a corner or looked the other way. If I left treasure on the floor of a cave I would hope it would still be there when I returned.

Did you read the topic? It's not about your house or city not changing, it's about the cloned maps. Or are you really pulling a straw man to defend how every cave - be it on top of a mountain, under the city, or next to the sea - all share one layout despite claiming to be completely different locations?

I don't use straw man arguments. Go into a cave and explore it, then leave. Return to the cave in that location another day and see how much it has changed. It will be roughly the same. That is realistinc and immersive. Same with your neighborhood: it doesn't switch around much, and if it did that would break your immersion. How is it you expect Kirkwall to change? How is it you expect a dungeon to change?

It is instead the whining complainers who have construed the facts in order to complain. The setting of the story is just fine.

How about the supposedly diffrent locations that were exactly the same?

[OriginalTibs]

Blastback wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

Not at all. My house is the same today as it was, and in fact I would feel rather disriented were it radically changed each time I came home from work.

My hometown and the places in it changed only gradually, and even then what was there was largely still there beneath any transitory changes in the decor.

To have a tale set in one city and its environs it would be far more immersion-breaking were it to morph on me every time I turned a corner or looked the other way. If I left treasure on the floor of a cave I would hope it would still be there when I returned.

Did you read the topic? It's not about your house or city not changing, it's about the cloned maps. Or are you really pulling a straw man to defend how every cave - be it on top of a mountain, under the city, or next to the sea - all share one layout despite claiming to be completely different locations?

I don't use straw man arguments. Go into a cave and explore it, then leave. Return to the cave in that location another day and see how much it has changed. It will be roughly the same. That is realistinc and immersive. Same with your neighborhood: it doesn't switch around much, and if it did that would break your immersion. How is it you expect Kirkwall to change? How is it you expect a dungeon to change?

It is instead the whining complainers who have construed the facts in order to complain. The setting of the story is just fine.

How about the supposedly diffrent locations that were exactly the same?

No matter where you go there you are.

If I enter a cave on the coast and another in the mountains there is very little difference between them that I can see unless I want to consider geologic composition.

The story isn't about the configuration of the room, it is about what happens there. Wfhether I am in an apartment in town or a room in the country the room still has six sides. What is interestingis what happens inside the room and why, not whether it was built of 2X4 on a 16 inch center or 2X6 on a 24 inch center.

[Zorlagius]

I don`t see any reason for copy-paste dungeons when looking at most other games in the market. Even games that are not exactly AAA-quality don`t do it and for a good reason. Once immersion breaks game becomes far less enjoyable to play.

Anyone who doesn`t mind, I have a bridge I`d like to sell you... Again and again.

[OriginalTibs]

Zorlagius wrote...

I don`t see any reason for copy-paste dungeons when looking at most other games in the market. Even games that are not exactly AAA-quality don`t do it and for a good reason. Once immersion breaks game becomes far less enjoyable to play.

Anyone who doesn`t mind, I have a bridge I`d like to sell you... Again and again.

You should consider where you can stuff that bridge. If you are considering the aggregate file size of a product recycling a proven layout makes all sorts of sense.

Anyone whose immersion breaks merely because of the configuration of a cave either suffers ADD or is far too superficial to be playing a fantasy computer game. I say this because these people are focused, even obsessing, on what is irrelevant. That every room you stand in has four walls doesn't matter a whole lot unless you spend your life looking only at them, ignoring issues like the conflict between order and chaos, the apparent futility of individual action compared to world events, and the fact that the primary place the individual can make a difference is also individual: the child you liberated, the father you consoled, the mother's tear you dried.

What matters is the fact that the world is made of an aggregate of individual states, and if a difference is made in each of those the effect will be realized in the whole. Things like that matter in life, and in a literary work of art. All this moaning is meaningless bellyaching by a bunch of spoiled brats, or so it seems to me.

Just sayin'.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 23 mars 2011 - 01:00 .

[OriginalTibs]

This is from a guy who started out in rooms with one text description and the commands N,S,E,W.

[Bathead]

Ha!
Zork, FTW!

[OriginalTibs]

Lord Mephisto wrote...

...
The big problem is that all the recycled areas further add to the feeling of a rushed action game, and piles on top of the other things I didn't like about the game. If the overall area/level design was more varied and deep, I might have tolerated playing it like an action RPG without it feeling so bland and repetative too soon.

Sounds like you don't approach the game for literary content.

Much attention is paid to varied layouts in shooters becaue that is really all there is to it beyond gear and what the player teams bring to the table.

This isn't an action game, it doesn't play like an action game, and it isn't furnished like an action game where all there is is layout. This is interactive literature, and as such it has strong and effective merit.

Unfortunately I am gathering that real readers have grown scarce, and few can conceive that maybe the problem isn't in the game itself, but rather in the lack of imagination and ability to adapt to an advance in computer gaming.

We once speculated that computer games might be considered visual art: We now have games (this one, and other recent titles) arguably literature, and which address significant questions the way good literature does.

[supertouch]

nice intellectual posturing, exalted one. you've managed to say so much, yet so little. if a person wants to focus on literary content, he can read a novel. this will allow him to assume the role of the protagonist and create his own world without the influence of a game's established environment. at any rate, you're a moron.

[OriginalTibs]

supertouch wrote...

nice intellectual posturing, exalted one. you've managed to say so much, yet so little. if a person wants to focus on literary content, he can read a novel. this will allow him to assume the role of the protagonist and create his own world without the influence of a game's established environment. at any rate, you're a moron.

You dislike the idea of meaningful game content, do you?

[Korusus]

OriginalTibs wrote...

Lord Mephisto wrote...

...
The big problem is that all the recycled areas further add to the feeling of a rushed action game, and piles on top of the other things I didn't like about the game. If the overall area/level design was more varied and deep, I might have tolerated playing it like an action RPG without it feeling so bland and repetative too soon.

Sounds like you don't approach the game for literary content.

Much attention is paid to varied layouts in shooters becaue that is really all there is to it beyond gear and what the player teams bring to the table.

This isn't an action game, it doesn't play like an action game, and it isn't furnished like an action game where all there is is layout. This is interactive literature, and as such it has strong and effective merit.

Unfortunately I am gathering that real readers have grown scarce, and few can conceive that maybe the problem isn't in the game itself, but rather in the lack of imagination and ability to adapt to an advance in computer gaming.

We once speculated that computer games might be considered visual art: We now have games (this one, and other recent titles) arguably literature, and which address significant questions the way good literature does.

What nonsense.  DA2's dialogue is weak and shallow, the character development is almost nonexistent, the main plot is disjointed and fractured and overshadowed by the overabundance of meaningless sidequests full of yet more weak and shallow dialogue disconnected completely from the narrative.  All of this is only made more obvious and glaring by the recycled areas.  When I feel disgusted by the combat and by running through the same warehouse/sewer/tunnel for the 20th time it is only for the promise of getting to the next cinematic dialogue sequence expecting something better, because after all this is a BioWare game, only to be disappointed once again. 

The best I can say for the "literary content" of the game is that it does an exemplary job of crafting one-liners, the witty Hawke and Isabella are especially notable examples.

[OriginalTibs]

Korusus wrote...

...
What nonsense.  DA2's dialogue is weak and shallow, the character development is almost nonexistent, the main plot is disjointed and fractured and overshadowed by the overabundance of meaningless sidequests full of yet more weak and shallow dialogue disconnected completely from the narrative.  All of this is only made more obvious and glaring by the recycled areas.  When I feel disgusted by the combat and by running through the same warehouse/sewer/tunnel for the 20th time it is only for the promise of getting to the next cinematic dialogue sequence expecting something better, because after all this is a BioWare game, only to be disappointed once again. 

I had a different experience from you: Perhaps it is my background or political views that make the difference, but a difference there was. Having a different impression doesn't make my view nonsense, but your asserting it so reduces your own credibility.

My thought is that you sought a different theme than I found.

Korusus wrote...

The best I can say for the "literary content" of the game is that it does an exemplary job of crafting one-liners, the witty Hawke and Isabella are especially notable examples.

At least you have a sense of humor.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 23 mars 2011 - 03:26 .