163 réponses à ce sujet

[Korusus]

OriginalTibs wrote...

I had a different experience from you: Perhaps it is my background or political views that make the difference, but a difference there was. Having a different impression doesn't make my view nonsense, but your asserting it so reduces your own credibility.

The nonsense is that you criticize other people's perception that the recycled areas detract from the game by insulting their ability to appreciate the "literary content".  Or that somehow the "literary content" excuses lazy area design.  Even if DA2 had the greatest story and dialogue since Planescape: Torment it wouldn't excuse the recycled areas (incidentally Planescape: Torment and the Infinity Engine games in general have some the best, most artistic area designs of any RPGs without the need for recycling).  A game doesn't have to be a first-person shooter in order for level design and world design to be important.

Modifié par Korusus, 23 mars 2011 - 03:33 .

[TileToad]

No.

Then again, isometric and third person perspective never does immerse me tremendously. It's more like watching a movie and as such I'm not bothered by artificiality so much.

I do think it's a bit lazy from a development POV, however.

[BlameBot]

Laziness always bothers me in game design. It's one thing if they cycled through five or ten different dungeon types, but they used the same design over and over and over and over and over and ...

You get the point.

[Sharn]

Not completetly ruined, but its still terrible. The recylcedness is worst than DA:O thats for sure, which didn't too much luckily. But seriously, why does every single bandit hideout look like the elven ruins?

[Bachmors]

Not completely, but pretty much.

[OriginalTibs]

Korusus wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

I had a different experience from you: Perhaps it is my background or political views that make the difference, but a difference there was. Having a different impression doesn't make my view nonsense, but your asserting it so reduces your own credibility.

The nonsense is that you criticize other people's perception that the recycled areas detract from the game by insulting their ability to appreciate the "literary content".  Or that somehow the "literary content" excuses lazy area design.  Even if DA2 had the greatest story and dialogue since Planescape: Torment it wouldn't excuse the recycled areas.  A game doesn't have to be a first-person shooter in order for level design and world design to be important.

I can concede your point that what I perceive isn't enough to justify my judgement of others.

However the design's focus on what can be called literary content can explain the designer's mistaken expectation that recycled layouts were 'no big deal' (and as an aside on that issue I have read in another thread that the developer has noted the general sentiment that it was indeed a big deal).

The fact is, for me, the recycled layouts are no big deal. The literary content, the theme that places orderly governance against  chaotic or 'free' governance, control against liberty, safety versus discovery, and the dilemma of trying to do right and make a difference versus the tendency of the world to neutralize individual positive changes are very much more important questions to be explored, especially today in this world, if only the players thought to approach the body of work as a presentation of those conversations.  An even more intriguing factor is that these questions are presented not as dogma but as questions.

If you agree with me that the interaction with these themes embodied in a game context might have real worth, then I invite you to consider how insignificant layout recycling is.

In return I will embrace your logical point what a tragedy it is that such an opportunity is being lost behind the annoyance some feel over irritating minutiae. 

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 23 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[MonkeyLungs]

It's still a game and level design becomes a factor in people's reaction to the game, regardless of whatever deep issues you feel are being presented by the storytellers. Maybe the story doesn't approach these issues in a way sufficient to deter people from feeling shorted by the re-use of maps?

[_- Songlian -]

Warheadz wrote...


Yes. Side quests became a chore unti I stopped doing them in Act III.

In case the image is too small, here's the link.

This is great.  Thanks for linking. 

On topic: I'm not sure if maps play such a  big part in the immersion, for me. I tend to believe that's the story's task.

Repetitieve areas, on the other hand, do make the gameplay less enjoyable, and sometimes even tiresome to go through (the same cave over and over again).  

Modifié par - Songlian -, 23 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[OriginalTibs]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

It's still a game and level design becomes a factor in people's reaction to the game, regardless of whatever deep issues you feel are being presented by the storytellers. Maybe the story doesn't approach these issues in a way sufficient to deter people from feeling shorted by the re-use of maps?

True: It is still a game. Yet play is the most important tool in learning, a point public and most private education institutions in the US have completely missed. Infants learn a tremendous amount of real knowledge about the world, language, and about human society before they ever get to kindergarten, and they do so by playing.

So perhaps the concept 'what is a game' should be revisited sometime.

You and I have not left that 'play as a learning model' behind, though we may have grown so used to it that we don't notice.

Finally, these are not 'deep' issues we are exploring, so much as they are real issues.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 23 mars 2011 - 04:04 .

[supertouch]

 are you implying storytelling and visual presentation are mutually exclusive? countless games have balanced the two. what exactly is your argument? 

[OriginalTibs]

supertouch wrote...

 are you implying storytelling and visual presentation are mutually exclusive? countless games have balanced the two. what exactly is your argument? 

No, I did not intend to imply exclusivity.

As it has emerged, my argument is that compared to what the story presents for the player's exploration, the themata, vastly outweigh repetitious layouts in the environment, except where such repetition obscures meaningful content. 

The themata I have identified so far are primarily a commentary on right individual action in a world that tends to negate such merit, set within a dialectic or political context where liberty and order are contested (mage/templar, Qun/Kirkwall), and a dialog between an intent that individual actions may aggregate into world-changing events, and the counterargument  that individual actions rarely aggregate, and are usually futile.

These are not presented as dogmatic conclusions but as interactive questions. The lesson would be a spoiler, but also individualized based on the player's impressions and experience.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 23 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[TileToad]

OriginalTibs wrote...

supertouch wrote...

 are you implying storytelling and visual presentation are mutually exclusive? countless games have balanced the two. what exactly is your argument? 

No, I did not intend to imply exclusivity.

As it has emerged, my argument is that compared to what the story presents for the player's exploration, the themata, vastly outweigh repetitious layouts in the environment, except where such repetition obscures meaningful content. 

The themata I have identified so far are primarily a commentary on right individual action in a world that tends to negate such merit, set within a dialectic or political context where liberty and order are contested (mage/templar, Qun/Kirkwall), and a dialog between an intent that individual actions may aggregate into world-changing events, and the counterargument  that individual actions rarely aggregate, and are usually futile.

These are not presented as dogmatic conclusions but as interactive questions. The lesson would be a spoiler, but also individualized based on the player's impressions and experience.

Dang, here I thought I was on a game forum, not some crypto, political debate party.
I have absolutely no idea what you're saying.

[OriginalTibs]

TileToad wrote...

Dang, here I thought I was on a game forum, not some crypto, political debate party.
I have absolutely no idea what you're saying.

umm.. the plot and theme are more important than a few glitches in the setting?

[aftohsix]

 I didn't like the recycled maps but at the same time it didn't ruin immersion or break the game for me.  IMO it was one of the only things I can legitimately point to as poorly done.