12 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryenke]

I've read a lot of critiques about the feeling that Hawke doesn't have goals, just unrelated things happen around him (her).  I think there is merit in that, and that Bioware was so close to this working but missed the boat.

Now this is my personal take, but a little bit of spin and I think I could have been invested in my Hawke's journey.  Instead of putting Hawke through the paces until the end - give Hawke clear goals for the whole act.

• Act 1 - Why not have it be the year of 'servitude' - I have some can't control quests (curtesy of my 'employer'), and learn about friends and people who might help me out of my mercenary/smuggler debts.  Hawke's goal would be get self and sibling out of indentured servitude.  That's a goal I can get behind much more than I want to live in a big house so that mommy is happy.  Keeps the story pretty much the same - Hawke has to get out into the Deep Roads and make the coin to get out of Hawke's 'contract'.
• Act 2 - Hawke's out of servitude, and the Qunari are a big threat to Hawke's new home Kirkwall (write more Q threat up to the beginning of the act).  So make Hawke really the only one who has a chance to talk down or stop the Q threat (due to Arishok respect earned act I).  Hawke might not like being forced into this too much, but has to overcome the situation.  Hawke's goal would be make things safe in Kirkwall (i.e. deal with Qunari) for mom/sibling/friends. 
• Act 3 - Make this the save (or reject) the sibling act.  (So the story wouldn't allow sibling shouldn't die in deep roads - rather have joined Templar/Mages) Hawke's sibling is caught in the center of the storm, Hawke, if mage, is caught at center of storm - and rather than meaningless companion missions like Isabella's - make 3rd act companion missions more central to Templar/Mage tensions.  Hawke's initial goal would be save self/sibling stuck in middle of Templar/Mage mess - until Hawke was so mired in the thick of it Hawke ends up exactly where the game currently does. 

I just feel like Bioware got it close - but never had me invested in Hawke's journey.  A cinematic/conversation or two at Act's beginnings tying the act's tension/goal to Hawke and the specific situation Hawke is in would have worked wonders for my enjoyment. 

[Arppis]

They did. People just didn't pay attention when playing the game. There was very clear goals. First act was about escaping and trying to start a new life. Second act was about trying to get status so you could protect your sister (or yourself if you are playing a COWARD MAGE!) from templars. And this was done by going to expedition to get some coin to do so. Third act had the Qunari and plot against them, Vicount asks you to go there and solve stuff up! Last act was about templars and mages finaly getting it on and having some hot steamy fights and you needed to work as arbiter between them.

There was always a clear goal. It's just people expect the game to have same boring goal for the duration of the whole game. Life isn't like that, things change and I think this was refreshing.

Modifié par Arppis, 21 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[Evolution33]

The point of Hawke's character is summed up by Flemeth at the very beginning of the game when she says something along the lines of how thrown into a struggle Hawke will fight but she can't decide if this is circumstance or fate. Every event that Hawke finds himself in the middle of isn't of his making and it isn't his desire to solve it.

[Ryenke]

Well, the goals were not clear to me - so I guess it is just my perspective.

But the one goal that was obvious - even to me (get the coin for the expedition) felt silly to me my Hawke didn't have Bethany - (I had Carver) - because the only reason for it that I could see was so that Mom could live in a nice house.

[Silveryne]

They're not trying to get a nice house, but rather earn some status so they don't have to fend off Templars constantly. In the dialogue with Meeran and Athenril, they mention that they can protect the Hawke that is a mage (Bethany or Hawke) for the first year. When act 1 starts, you're out of your first year, and trying to get that protection.
If you're playing a warrior or rogue and have Bethany taken away from you, then all it is is a status move up in the world, yes. But you originally got there out of a desire to protect yourself or your sister.
The status move is also essential for interacting with the Viscount in act 2. The only reason he'll see you in act 1 is because you ran off and rescued his son.

[Volourn]

You are told each act's goals from the start. It should have been very clear. Should they spell things out and hit you over the head with them/ It's bad enough the journal as a category called 'main quests' so you know which ones further the main plot. L A M E

[AlexXIV]

I don't think the problem is the lack of goals, it is about the way things play out. Hawke seems to be more a victim of circumstances than actually actively doing something. Whatever his/her plans are they fail in some way, followed by alot of fighting, and then winning despite it all.

Act1: Deep Roads. Plan is to go down and get rich. Then they get betrayed and locked in. They fight through the rock wraiths and finally succeed.

Act2: Arishok. Plan is to find a peaceful solution. They fail, the Qunari go on rampage in Kirkwall, Hawke fights and wins.

Act3: Mages vs Templars. Plan is to find a peaceful solution, but then everything goes wrong, Hawke fights and wins (or at least survives).

So it is always about fail and somehow comming out on top. Which is nice if it happens once, but if it happens all the time it is getting awkward. Because you feel like the story teller is trying too hard.

[MasterSolo]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't think the problem is the lack of goals, it is about the way things play out. Hawke seems to be more a victim of circumstances than actually actively doing something. Whatever his/her plans are they fail in some way, followed by alot of fighting, and then winning despite it all.

Act1: Deep Roads. Plan is to go down and get rich. Then they get betrayed and locked in. They fight through the rock wraiths and finally succeed.

Act2: Arishok. Plan is to find a peaceful solution. They fail, the Qunari go on rampage in Kirkwall, Hawke fights and wins.

Act3: Mages vs Templars. Plan is to find a peaceful solution, but then everything goes wrong, Hawke fights and wins (or at least survives).

So it is always about fail and somehow comming out on top. Which is nice if it happens once, but if it happens all the time it is getting awkward. Because you feel like the story teller is trying too hard.

Same thing happened in DA:O, however people complain about it in DA2.

[AlexXIV]

MasterSolo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't think the problem is the lack of goals, it is about the way things play out. Hawke seems to be more a victim of circumstances than actually actively doing something. Whatever his/her plans are they fail in some way, followed by alot of fighting, and then winning despite it all.

Act1: Deep Roads. Plan is to go down and get rich. Then they get betrayed and locked in. They fight through the rock wraiths and finally succeed.

Act2: Arishok. Plan is to find a peaceful solution. They fail, the Qunari go on rampage in Kirkwall, Hawke fights and wins.

Act3: Mages vs Templars. Plan is to find a peaceful solution, but then everything goes wrong, Hawke fights and wins (or at least survives).

So it is always about fail and somehow comming out on top. Which is nice if it happens once, but if it happens all the time it is getting awkward. Because you feel like the story teller is trying too hard.

Same thing happened in DA:O, however people complain about it in DA2.

Well yes but the Warden does everytime have an active decision. Help the Elves, destroy the elves, help bhelen, help harrowmont. help the circle, wipe the circle. Hawke is just basically killing stuff.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Ryenke wrote...

But the one goal that was obvious - even to me (get the coin for the expedition) felt silly to me my Hawke didn't have Bethany - (I had Carver) - because the only reason for it that I could see was so that Mom could live in a nice house.

Er, Hawke had... Hawke? If you have Carver, it means *you're* the mage who needs coin and status to hide behind, rather than your sibling. It's not that complicated.

[The Serge777]

While I think Hawke definitely had goals, they weren't designed to be explicit "quests." I apologize if I'm repeating what others have already wrote, but these are my thoughts.

It's clear in the first Act that his ultimate goal is taking care of his family and acquiring the means to do so. The ultimate expression of this desire is his attempt to raise enough money to buy into the Deep Roads Expedition (and the prelude is taking unsavory jobs in order to get his family into Kirkwall). In the background are the rising tensions regarding the qunari and the conflict between the Circle and the Templars.

In the second Act, it's clear that he will play a role in attempting to help Kirkwall navigate around the qunari threat. He plays diplomat as well as general and ultimately only succeeds in the latter (although to the qunari, he probably succeeds in both). Meanwhile, the escalating tensions between the Circle and Templars are unintentionally exacerbated by Hawke's successful defeat of The Arishok. Fortunately, he's put into a position of renown to at least have a say in the outcome.

In the third Act, Hawke's goal is to figure out a way to keep Kirkwall from imploding from the Circle and Templare conflict.

The reason why these central Act features don't feel like part of a cohesive story is the same reason most of our lives don't seem like stories except in retrospect: we're living them. Even though this is a framed narrative told in the past tense, players experience it in the "now." The only questions and "motivations" we have a players is to figure out how Hawke becomes Champion of Kirkwall and what sort of dilemma the world's facing.

This having been said, this is a game and a role-playing game of the D&D sort. Most of the best p-n-p D&D games had clear central plots and one of Bioware's crowning achievements, Baldur's Gate, II had the same set up. BG2 (and Planescape: Torment, and the first BG) all had fixed plots, fixed end points, and so forth, JUST LIKE DA:0 AND DA2. However, they were able to cover that up by having a bunch of unrelated side-quests just like DAO and DA2. Unlike DA2, though, BGII has a clear goal for your Bhaal-spawn: save Imoen and find Irenicus (or find Irenicus and just happen to stumble into Imoen if it happens). Even as you're traveling around Amn collecting money to pay the Shadow Thieves, that goal repeatedly pops up. You have dreams as time progresses even if you are dealing with those many side-quests. BGII expertly gives into a D&D conceit despite being as personal a story as Hawke's.

So, I like how DA2 handles Hawke's story, but recognize that clarifying his goals for each act would make more traditional RPG gamers more comfortable.

[JamieCOTC]

When I played a warrior or rogue, the story of wanting protection made sense. Bethany wanted protection and she was Hawke's sister, so there is the set goal. Playing as a mage, and a sassy female mage at that, my Hawke went all around the gallows frittering about like she didn't have a care in the world. That may very well be irresponsible, but the game allows that w/ no distinct consequences.

[Curlain]

Well I personally felt Act 1's motivations was weak. All my rogue got was some vague fear from Bethany that we needed to go on the Deep Roads expedition to make enough money to gain a new house and status to better hide her mage status, however my immediate thought was won't more status make her more likely to be noticed not less? And secondly I wondered why don't Hawke and family just return to Fereldan then now that the Blight is over, and find somewhere quiet away from any prying Templar eyes (or anywhere else for that mater).

The situation became even more daft as the Act plays out as Hawke makes money left, right and centre (and become part owner of a working mine). This left me wonder why do I have to still go to the Deep Roads (one of the dangerous places to go in Thedas) chasing a vague rumour of a possible treasure, when I can finance the buying of our family estate quite nicely doing the relatively safer work around Kirkwall (or use the fortune to get out of Kirkwall and it's overbearing Templar presence which would seem still during Act 1 the most sensible way to go about protecting Bethany).

I don't mind being railroaded sometimes, I get it's necessary for the story, and I get that it's setting things up for Act II and beyond, but I would have liked some much more better rationale for doing Act 1 and the Deep Roads quest (or the Quanari Chantry one), I felt throughout Act 1 that I was doing things not because I needed to, but because that's what Hawke did in Varric's story, so that's what I had to do.

Modifié par Curlain, 21 mars 2011 - 10:36 .