647 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

If everybody lives for the State and dies for the State, as it were, to the exclusion of being allowed any "me time" for their own projects, hobbies, independent ventures, businesses, research projects, etc... then nothing is going on except the continued maintenance of the State. It has become something whose purpose of existence is only to continue to exist, like a bureaucracy that's entirely forgotten its original mission statement and has turned only into a self-perpetuating jobs program for bureaucrats. It turns into a tautology.

[cglasgow]

Statulos wrote...

Just as the Chantry refuses to have a masculine devine. Tevinter has one, so it's in the same level.

Oh, please.  'Everybody else screws up like that too!' is in no way a defense against the accusation that the Qunari are not superior, but are at least equally as screwed up as anyone else.  In fact, its a concession of the point!

Yes, there are things that qunari society does better than human society in Thedas.   And there are other things that human society does better than qunari society.

And on top of that, there's the part that however flawed human society is, it has the potential to change.  You can always try to work for a better tomorrow.

But the Qun?  The Qun specifically denies change and assumes that it is already perfect.  Any mistakes the Qun is making now, they will continue to make so long as their society exists.   If you are a follower of the Qun, the simple act of wondering out loud that the Qun might be wrong about something will make the priests come over and ask you if you want to be Tal-Vashoth, and if you don't want to be, then shut the hell up.

So, yeah.   If two entities are both screwing up, but one of them still has the capacity to learn from their mistakes (however slowly and painfully) while the other one is completely closed-minded and will never admit that they are wrong, then go Team A and screw Team B.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[Medhia Nox]

Statulos - I admire a man who makes a decision over someone who doesn't.

I'd rather have someone choose to be a staunch individualist - or a staunch "Qunarist?" - than simply say: "Well, geeze, I don't know."

Kinda the whole: "Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way." thing.

====

cglasgow - but misogyny isn't unique to the Qun. Humanity has practiced misogyny in nearly all its governments for the last three thousand years.

And again - I admire men with convictions, and don't admire those who do not have them. Yes, this can lead to a static form - but they also seem to treat "Truth" like the old German "Ordeal" . Two men with a dispute fight - the winner is right. I can admire that (though I don't necessarily agree with it) .

So - if Aveline beat the Arishok - it is likely things might change amongst the Qunari.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[Superposition]

Statulos wrote...


Not necessarily. Paleolithic societies have a quite comparatively level of specialization and they were very successful.

That's why ultimately you and me are now talking.

I must be missing something....( compared to what ? ) 

Statulos wrote...

Answering the original question: Qunari are interesting because they are alien. Aliens challenges our notions of normality and evident. It makes us unconfortable and interested at the same time because "they" are not "us".

I agree.

[Lithuasil]

Superposition wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
There's a gradual difference between collaboration (to achieve goals) and collectivism (at which point any possible goal beyond existing has become obsolete).

What do you mean by that ? 

What I mean by that, is when you have a society, that considers itself no longer as means to make the life for the individuals inside it more comfortable, but instead regards itself as more then the sum of individuals inside it, there's three possible purposes left, this society can possibly have:

a) Someone is still pulling strings, deciding what everyone needs to think "for the good of all of us", making the whole thing a scam
Expansion - that's where the Qunari are - a purpose is artificially constructed to 'spread the word, convert or kill everyone that doesn't believe". That can't go on forever - there's only a limited number of heathens after all. It's also never specified, why such beliefs should be forced on anyone - as said, it's artificially constructing a purpose to keep the inevitable of a little longer
c) Continue existing - A collective society, where nobody is pulling the strings and deciding what's best, is an anthill. The sole purpose of the Anthill is to continue it's existence. Eat. Reproduce. Die, without any higher ambition or purpose (since such would always have to be initiated by individuals, rather then by society as a whole). At this point, the members of such a society are no longer sentient beings, since they no longer use their conscience.

[th3warr1or]

Because the Chantry SUCKS.

For the record, I'm neither an atheist nor communist.

[cglasgow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

cglasgow - but misogyny isn't unique to the Qun. Humanity has practiced misogyny in nearly all its governments for the last three thousand years.

My point is simply that the tamassran are as ignorant as anyone else about who has the potential to achieve what, so.

So - if Aveline beat the Arishok - it is likely things might change amongst the Qunari.

In any female Warden playthrough, Sten was a personal witness to a woman warrior putting a beatdown on the single greatest threat to the planet in the past several centuries.   How much did that change qunari opinion on female warriors?  Zero.   'You are either not a woman, or not a warrior.'

For that matter, Lady Hawke puts her dainty little boot smack in the Arishok's ass.  Anybody seriously expect female qunari warriors in DA3?

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Medhia Nox]

So, Sten doesn't call a female warrior warden by that honorary title at the end of the game (if you make friends with him)?

In my play through I became friends with Sten, and he called me by some title. If he called a female warrior by that same name - I'd say you changed one Qunari's mind.

BTW - Sten does say he might be wrong about his opinions on magic if I'm not mistaken.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 06:49 .

[cglasgow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So, Sten doesn't call a female warrior warden by that honorary title at the end of the game?

'Kadan' doesn't mean 'warrior', it means 'someone I value highly'.

Also, I get the impression that by the end of the game, Sten has decided that you're not really a woman. 

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[Medhia Nox]

@cglasgow - That's a fallacy you might be inventing to continue supporting your argument though really. He can't just decide you're not really a woman (I know you have a smiley face - so I assume you're not making an actual claim about this part).

I think it's just convenient to say: "We know everything about the Qunari." and then make judgments on that.

I know that Sten changes A LOT if he learns to respect you.

And "I value you highly" as a warrior - is still calling someone a warrior. He doesn't value her highly as "a cook, or a seamstress". Because presumably Alistair is the cook - and you wear the same clothes from beginning to end - so no need for a seamstress.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 mars 2011 - 06:56 .

[cglasgow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cglasgow - That's a fallacy you might be inventing to continue supporting your argument  [...] And "I value you high" as a warrior - is still calling someone a warrior.

Dear Kettle.  You are black.  Sincerely yours, Pot.   

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 06:57 .

[Herr Uhl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cglasgow - That's a fallacy you might be inventing to continue supporting your argument though really. He can't just decide you're not really a woman (I know you have a smiley face - so I assume you're not making an actual claim about this part).

I think it's just convenient to say: "We know everything about the Qunari." and then make judgments on that.

I know that Sten changes A LOT if he learns to respect you.

And "I value you highly" as a warrior - is still calling someone a warrior. He doesn't value her highly as "a cook, or a seamstress". Because presumably Alistair is the cook - and you wear the same clothes from beginning to end - so no need for a seamstress.

He doesn't value you because you're a warrior though.

And he sees the Warden as some kind of anomaly, like an unicorn.

[Lolhaxx]

Really who cares, they're just a stepping stone for Hawke's path to greatness. They're a bunch of warmongering tools that used the 'injustice' in Kirkwall to start a war. Although I hoped that they killed the magistrate who told me to go retrieve his stupid son in act 1. Let a poison gas formula slip as a decoy huh. Nothing honorable about that and tried to kill that dwarf who made explosives out of lyrium sand? Tsk tsk. Can't stand competition?

Modifié par Lolhaxx, 22 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[Medhia Nox]

@cglasgow - you don't agree clearly.

If I fight by someone's side, and they say that they admire me, I don't think I would come to the conclusion that they were admiring my ability to dance. So I think my "logic" is fairly sound.

Sten, to my knowledge, makes no reference to you being "not a woman" (I didn't play a female Warden).

And even their respect of the Wardens suggests an openness to different thought processes. They know that mages and women can be Wardens - yet he states that the Qunari tell tales of the Warden's greatness.

[cglasgow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If I fight by someone's side, and they say that they admire me, I don't think I would come to the conclusion that they were admiring my ability to dance. So I think my "logic" is fairly sound.

Except that the trigger for Sten calling you 'kadan' instead of 'Warden' is the conclusion of his personal subquest about you finding his sword, not about you killing the Archdemon.   It still happens even if you had Loghain kill the Archdemon for you while you stood at the back edge of the map spamming healing spells like any Final Fantasy staff chick.

[barryl89]

Lolhaxx wrote...

Really who cares, they're just a stepping stone for Hawke's path to greatness. They're a bunch of warmongering tools that used the 'injustice' in Kirkwall to start a war. Although I hoped that they killed the magistrate who told me to go retrieve his stupid son in act 1. Let a poison gas formula slip as a decoy huh. Nothing honorable about that and tried to kill that dwarf who made explosives out of lyrium sand? Tsk tsk. Can't stand competition?

Err what?

You mean that the person who did steal it cared what it was it did, as long as she killled people and framed the Qunari? In that case if someone stole my chair and killed somebody with it, I am responsible.

When did they try to kill a dwarf?

Modifié par barryl89, 22 mars 2011 - 07:09 .

[Statulos]

cglasgow wrote...

Statulos wrote...

Just as the Chantry refuses to have a masculine devine. Tevinter has one, so it's in the same level.

Oh, please.  'Everybody else screws up like that too!' is in no way a defense against the accusation that the Qunari are not superior, but are at least equally as screwed up as anyone else.  In fact, its a concession of the point!

Yes, there are things that qunari society does better than human society in Thedas.   And there are other things that human society does better than qunari society.

And on top of that, there's the part that however flawed human society is, it has the potential to change.  You can always try to work for a better tomorrow.

But the Qun?  The Qun specifically denies change and assumes that it is already perfect.  Any mistakes the Qun is making now, they will continue to make so long as their society exists.   If you are a follower of the Qun, the simple act of wondering out loud that the Qun might be wrong about something will make the priests come over and ask you if you want to be Tal-Vashoth, and if you don't want to be, then shut the hell up.

So, yeah.   If two entities are both screwing up, but one of them still has the capacity to learn from their mistakes (however slowly and painfully) while the other one is completely closed-minded and will never admit that they are wrong, then go Team A and screw Team B.

Where have you red that I consider Qunari superior? I have very clearly said that they are bound by the same mystification due to naturalizing arbitrary social practices as the rest. And that's it.

Superposition wrote...

Statulos wrote...


Not
necessarily. Paleolithic societies have a quite comparatively level
of specialization and they were very successful.

That's why
ultimately you and me are now talking. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

I
must be missing something....( compared to what ? ) 

You do.

There should be "low" in my sentence and there is not.

Modifié par Statulos, 22 mars 2011 - 07:13 .

[cglasgow]

barryl89 wrote...

You mean that the person who did steal it cared what it was it did, as long as she killled people and framed the Qunari?

It was the Arishok's decision to make the phony recipe they stole a recipe of nerve gas instead of a recipe for noodle soup or something harmless.

Why?  Because he was hoping that the thieves would kill themselves with their own bomb, not knowing it was rigged to blow up in their face.  Either that, or all the dead people would motivate Hawke to go after them and kill them (which is exactly what happened).  He couldn't just, y'know, ask Hawke to please go kill all the fanatics without the nerve gas, here's some money or I'll owe you a favor or something; no, instead he has to be all manipulative, even if that means "thousands will die".

It's kind of like if the FBI is setting up a sting operation for a bunch of terrorists, but their phony gun dealer sells the whackos a genuine working nuclear bomb instead of a fake bomb.   When the bomb goes off and takes out a city, sure, you go after the terrorists... but you also go over to the FBI Director's office and go "DUDE, WHAT THE HELL?  WHY ON EARTH DID YOU ACTUALLY BAIT THEM WITH A REAL WMD?"

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Statulos]

cglasgow wrote...

If everybody lives for the State and dies for the State, as it were, to the exclusion of being allowed any "me time" for their own projects, hobbies, independent ventures, businesses, research projects, etc... then nothing is going on except the continued maintenance of the State. It has become something whose purpose of existence is only to continue to exist, like a bureaucracy that's entirely forgotten its original mission statement and has turned only into a self-perpetuating jobs program for bureaucrats. It turns into a tautology.

The state is the source of power. Power follows a circular logic according to Maquiaveli.

[Curlain]

barryl89 wrote...

Lolhaxx wrote...

Really who cares, they're just a stepping stone for Hawke's path to greatness. They're a bunch of warmongering tools that used the 'injustice' in Kirkwall to start a war. Although I hoped that they killed the magistrate who told me to go retrieve his stupid son in act 1. Let a poison gas formula slip as a decoy huh. Nothing honorable about that and tried to kill that dwarf who made explosives out of lyrium sand? Tsk tsk. Can't stand competition?

Err what?

You mean that the person who did steal it cared what it was it did, as long as she killled people and framed the Qunari? In that case if someone stole my chair and killed somebody with it, I am responsible.

When did they try to kill a dwarf?

It's referred to when you go to the Deep Roads after Nathaniel, you meet one of the dwarves from Vigil's Keep in Awakenings, and learn that the one who made explosives there (which his brother uses in that Nathaniel mission) is in hiding because the Qunari are trying to kill him for developing his explosives 

Modifié par Curlain, 22 mars 2011 - 07:15 .

[PantheraOnca]

Lithuasil wrote...

Superposition wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
There's a gradual difference between collaboration (to achieve goals) and collectivism (at which point any possible goal beyond existing has become obsolete).

What do you mean by that ? 

What I mean by that, is when you have a society, that considers itself no longer as means to make the life for the individuals inside it more comfortable, but instead regards itself as more then the sum of individuals inside it, there's three possible purposes left, this society can possibly have:

a) Someone is still pulling strings, deciding what everyone needs to think "for the good of all of us", making the whole thing a scam
Expansion - that's where the Qunari are - a purpose is artificially constructed to 'spread the word, convert or kill everyone that doesn't believe". That can't go on forever - there's only a limited number of heathens after all. It's also never specified, why such beliefs should be forced on anyone - as said, it's artificially constructing a purpose to keep the inevitable of a little longer
c) Continue existing - A collective society, where nobody is pulling the strings and deciding what's best, is an anthill. The sole purpose of the Anthill is to continue it's existence. Eat. Reproduce. Die, without any higher ambition or purpose (since such would always have to be initiated by individuals, rather then by society as a whole). At this point, the members of such a society are no longer sentient beings, since they no longer use their conscience.

sten's appreciation of paintings implies art is known to the qunari and that some enjoy it, art allows for expression and if we assume that the qunari have artists, then their job is to create art, not "continue the anthill." You also seem to be assuming that qunari have no time to themselves to indulge in hobbies or pleasures of any kind.

maybe they do, maybe they don't. i want to find out more.

i would say that the qunari allowing for more outside-the-box thinking is closer to happening than human lands' value every citizen and provide them with work.

i definitely agree that the qunari need to allow for a re-evaluation of one's path as that can change and yes, the ones who decide are not perfect. if they allowed for a review process of some kind, there might not be any tal-vashoth and then we would have a much more compelling argument for qunari as the better peoples.

edit:

without any higher ambition or purpose (since such would always have to
be initiated by individuals, rather then by society as a whole). At this
point, the members of such a society are no longer sentient beings,
since they no longer use their conscience.

dang yo, you come like, out of nowhere with crazytalk!

first of all, why must a sentient being have a conscience? sentience is generally related to being aware of oneself while a consceince refers to a moral "gut feeling" of some king.

sentient: 1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious. 2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.

so the definitiion is even broader than i thought.

conscious!=conscience.

conscience:
1. the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action: to follow the dictates of conscience. 2. the complex of ethical and moral principles that controls or inhibits the actions or thoughts of an individual. 3. an inhibiting sense of what is prudent: I'd eat another piece of pie but my conscience would bother me. 4. conscientiousness. 5. Obsolete . consciousness; self-knowledge. 6. Obsolete . strict and reverential observance.

so you might be referring to the 5, obsolete, definiftion. even given that the qunari are aware of themselves.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 22 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[Lolhaxx]

barryl89 wrote...

Lolhaxx wrote...

Really who cares, they're just a stepping stone for Hawke's path to greatness. They're a bunch of warmongering tools that used the 'injustice' in Kirkwall to start a war. Although I hoped that they killed the magistrate who told me to go retrieve his stupid son in act 1. Let a poison gas formula slip as a decoy huh. Nothing honorable about that and tried to kill that dwarf who made explosives out of lyrium sand? Tsk tsk. Can't stand competition?

Err what?

You mean that the person who did steal it cared what it was it did, as long as she killled people and framed the Qunari? In that case if someone stole my chair and killed somebody with it, I am responsible.

When did they try to kill a dwarf?

As in, they actually baited a thief to make a poison gas bomb, kill civilians in Lowtown and want to be blamed for it?  And the name of the dwarf is Dworkin from Awakening.  Yeah, real honorable there.

[Lithuasil]

Statulos wrote...

The state is the source of power. Power follows a circular logic according to Maquiaveli.

The power Macciavelli speaks of is held by people. A state without a head, without a king to lead it is useless, because no one is there to wield the power. What Macciavelli ment, was that anyone who has power wants more of it. But in a collective state, like the Qun, no one has power, everyone is slave to the concept (unless some are more equal than others, in which case the whole concept is a scam)

[cglasgow]

PantheraOnca wrote...

I would say that the qunari allowing for more outside-the-box thinking is closer to happening than human lands' value every citizen and provide them with work.

"They can never vary from that assigned path, never be other than they are meant to be." -- The Arishok.

Yeah, that really sounds like a society that thinks outside the box.  They live in the box.  The box is their one true god.

[Medhia Nox]

So - making him your friend changes his opinion of you. The Qunari hate Saarebas too - but he doesn't seem to freak out on you.

Look, the games cannot portray a perfectly designed fantasy world. There are so many plotholes - and that's reasonable. There's only so much time, and so much programming.

I admire order over individuality. I believe individuality breeds complete selfishness - I believe capitalism is the ultimate form of selfishness and individuality. Greed is good after all.

That doesn't make the Qunari perfect - but that's not the question. Their sense of honor and order are an "appeal" for me - over the wretches of Kirkwall.